-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2840
- Start date
something like this?
yeah, fuck me, right?
No if the creator of the game or series has the idea or decides to then all the power to him/her
Isn't it 5% of people are LGBT, not 10%? Regardless I'd lean more towards proportional and I think progress has been made on this front. Especially in Western RPGs iirc. Straight sexually active women are probably even more underrepresented as main protagonists in gaming. To be fair I mostly play older games and indies these days so sexuality in gaming isn't something that comes up much for me.
You can romance them, no matter the sex of your character. It a bit like a parody of Mass Effect (intended ?).
Ahhh, so it's pretty much the player chooses for them?
Or are players pushed into the romances through the narrative?
Probably proportional if it means you get characters who actually get to be gay and it doesn't have to be theorized about or swept under the rug as a reference. Proportional to me means the amount of game devs who would respectfully incorporate gay character in their games without any pushback.
The only reasonable answer.
They can stop being gay in a couple of decades or so.
Talking with LGBT+ and allies: We need good representation and that doesn't mean everyone should be gay but to see an increase would bee nice.
Talking with prejudiced people whom I know will not change their mind: EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE SHOULD BE GAY.
Talking with prejudiced people whom I know will not change their mind: EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE SHOULD BE GAY.
I mean...if it were TRULY proportional then there would hardly be any gay characters at all.
Current metrics estimate that only 5-10% of the population identify as LGBTQ, and those numbers are on the high side.
Now obviously the numbers are going to be skewed slightly, they're based off of a Galup poll, so some people in the closet may not admit to being LGBTQ, but even accounting for that margin of error, the numbers can't be much higher than say 10-15%.
Current metrics estimate that only 5-10% of the population identify as LGBTQ, and those numbers are on the high side.
Now obviously the numbers are going to be skewed slightly, they're based off of a Galup poll, so some people in the closet may not admit to being LGBTQ, but even accounting for that margin of error, the numbers can't be much higher than say 10-15%.
Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry.
Anyways, thinking of making a new topic to address how we can give creators more freedom to include LGBT characters/themes (i.e. not force them to include them, just turn the gaming business climate into how we can have creators who WANT to make them not get shut down or pressured to change to cishet). Sound good?
^
I'm not sure this is necessary. There's no real reason something like Uncharted couldn't be done with Nathan's love interest being another guy, the same goes for any given war game where the protag's wife is mentioned/shown in flashbacks.
Empowerment is always the ideal way forward, yes (though powers that be may sometimes get in the way). Sounds like a fantastic thread idea though.
Just trying to think if it's possible to show someone's sexuality, through character design,
instead of through scripting, without being stereotypical.
Showing through story is the easy way,
but there's lots of games that have no story or are light on story.
Just thinking of how to tackle those.
Level 1 - Citrus Manor
*fade to black*
*fade from black*
you are gay
*fade to black*
BEGIN!
Cool cool cool. So have you tried asking yourself why straight is the default? Or whether or not being straight is an integral part of most game narratives (it isn't)? Or how orientation even factors in to a majority of game narratives? Like how would Uncharted be any different if Drake were gay, or bi, or ace because his orientation is not actually all that critical to the narrative.
I think the real answer is more LGBTQ game creators. And I'm not saying it should be mandated as being 50/50, but there does need to be a lot more representation in the industry.
"Creators should do what they want" seems a pointless little platitude. It both reflects some idea that people are lobbying for creators to be "forced" to do any particular thing -- they aren't -- and sets up a convenient excuse for when they only reflect a culture of homogeneity.
It's hardly a stone's throw away from shouting "artistic vision" when some tripe's blatantly offensive and inappropriate content gets removed. It's just being defensive.
It's hardly a stone's throw away from shouting "artistic vision" when some tripe's blatantly offensive and inappropriate content gets removed. It's just being defensive.
No RePrEsEnTaTiOn QuOtAs! LeT tHeM mAkE wHaT tHeY wAnT!
No, I have not asked myself because they're not my stories. It's the writer's stories so ask them. I treat people who write for games the same as people who write books. Their story. Their rules.
Oh surprise! Dog whistle homophobia shit on this thread! Because the LGBT community have devs and writers chained to their unfair representation needs!!1!1
YOU are the one in here making an argument, so I'm asking YOU if YOU have asked YOURSELF these questions. You are trying to weasel out of the question here.
I really wish people would stop going "Yeah well I don't care about the sexuality of game characters".
That's the most obvious example of "Fuck you, got mine" if there's ever been one.
There have been plenty of LGBT+ people in this topic, trying to explain why representation is important to minorities such as myself, and yet white cishet people are trying to tell us what is or should be important to us as a minority.
You don't get to decide that. You don't get to say, from your position of having everything catered to your specific tastes in 99% of all cases, "Yeah well it isn't so bad anyway, why do you care?".
Sakurai seems to think at least Wolf's gay. Both his Smash-original portrayals are as leather daddy. :p
That's the most obvious example of "Fuck you, got mine" if there's ever been one.
There have been plenty of LGBT+ people in this topic, trying to explain why representation is important to minorities such as myself, and yet white cishet people are trying to tell us what is or should be important to us as a minority.
You don't get to decide that. You don't get to say, from your position of having everything catered to your specific tastes in 99% of all cases, "Yeah well it isn't so bad anyway, why do you care?".
Sakurai seems to think at least Wolf's gay. Both his Smash-original portrayals are as leather daddy. :p
Yes, you did ask me that question. And then I answered it. You didn't like it. That doesn't me I didn't answer it. But I'll answer it again for you.
No, I have not asked myself because they're not my stories. It's the writer's stories so they need to be the ones who should be asked. I treat people who write for games the same as people who write books. Their story. Their rules.
This is just a mealy-mouthed way of taking a stance while giving the appearance of not taking a stance. It's nothing but a dog whistle.
For anyone who doesn't see an issue with all of that above quoted nonsense, just replace LGBT with black. or jewish.No RePrEsEnTaTiOn QuOtAs! LeT tHeM mAkE wHaT tHeY wAnT!
When you're underrepresented, you want representation, and you want it to be good and not a caricature. Would you prefer it to be handled someone who can relate to you? Sure. As a black person, it'd be cool if more black people were in charge of games making black characters. But do I absolutely care that it's a middle aged white dude writing a black character if he portrays them well and not as some cliche ass thug, token, or red shirt? Fuck no, the fact that they put someone in the game that looks like me is good enough.
The fact that this is even a thread means that these types of characters, whether they're trans, a PoC, and so on, need increased representation.
Perhaps instead of trying to be a smartass, you might wanna ask yourself those questions.
And then you also might wanna ask yourself:
Why would someone trying to find their identity want to have a role model or hero to look up to? Why would a marginalized group of people want characters depicting their group as being good and normal people?
Respecting the author's vision is not a dog whistle. When I read a book and I don't like it. You know what I do? I stop reading it. The same with video games. I don't demand for it to change. I just stop playing it. Why? Because it's not for me but you know what is worst than a video game that you hate? A video game that a developer is forced to make.
If you want to call me a dog-whistle, mealthy-mouthed, weasel, or whatever new label you want to throw at me, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I'm going to continue supporting the creator of art (books, video games, movies, etc) to have as much freedom as possible to do whatever they want with no pressure. The more art is like that, the better.
"Respecting the author's vision," is horse shit. How many of these works hinge upon their chars being straight or cis? Virtually none. They go to cishet as a default. There is no "vision" for all these straight characters, no vision of exploring straight romance.
Also, do you not think it slightly odd that the entire's industry vision is straight apparently? And if the vision of virtually the entire industry is straight at the exclusion of everyone else, MAYBE THAT ISN'T A VISION WORTH SUPPORTING.
Some visions are not worth supporting.
Okay. that's your opinon. You know mine. The more freedom an artists has, the better is something I strongly believe.
I take it you're a big fan of Hatred and Rape Day? Free art! Creator's vision!
There's a massive jump between proportional and equal. I think they could and should definitely do better than proportional, given how underrepresented LGBT people are in games, but expecting every game to have equal numbers would just be ridiculous
Nice straw-man! If I love free expression in art, it must mean I love the worst cases of art as well so my argument is now lost. You got me.
So you're saying that sometimes the creator's vision is shitty and not worthy of respect?
The entire post is worth reading, but this quoted paragraph in particular, should be like, pinned on top of every page.
This is such an important thing, and every "respect the writer's vision"-person should take a very good look at this.
Did you know that Ocarina of Time originally was supposed to have a Light Temple, and that the Ice Cavern side-dungeon initially was going to be the Water Temple? Would you consider it an infringement on the creators' vision that they changed these things, too?
Or how about Star Fox Adventure. It originally was a completely different game, no ties to the Star Fox brand, and Krystal wasn't a damsel in distress but a fully realized playable protagonist. Yet, with the changes they made to the then Dinosaur Planet, they heavily sexualized Krystal - they removed the diversity they initially had so that white cishet people who think more minority representation is forced would be more willing to buy it. How's that for infringing on an author's vision?
ITT: People who are okay with games being 90% straight and white, but if too many LGBTQ+ get put in, then that's a problem. Trans/gay/genderfluid people just aren't living a valid lifestyle apparently? Pretty disgusting the stigma around having non-straight or non-white characters in the media. It shouldn't be about equal representation, it is about minorities being treated like human beings and not having any stigma around their race/gender/sexuality. 50/50 sounds good to me, if not 100%, because being straight ISN'T any better than being gay/trans/genderfluid. And that's how it should be shown in games and media.
Let's cut to the meat of this.
There's almost never a true "author's vision" with games that are even decently sized. You've got the whims of publishers, multiple higher-ups with their various inputs for the story, focus testing, etc.
You're only going to find a vision of a singular author in games that literally only have a handful of people working on them. Trying to argue that every game with cis white heterosexual male lead was a product of the "author's vision" is naive at best.
There's almost never a true "author's vision" with games that are even decently sized. You've got the whims of publishers, multiple higher-ups with their various inputs for the story, focus testing, etc.
You're only going to find a vision of a singular author in games that literally only have a handful of people working on them. Trying to argue that every game with cis white heterosexual male lead was a product of the "author's vision" is naive at best.
Don't be dense. Fulfilling a quota is dumb and for the wrong reasons. Developers should add more representation because it's good for games.No RePrEsEnTaTiOn QuOtAs! LeT tHeM mAkE wHaT tHeY wAnT!
Yes. I even said that if I don't like a video game, I just stop playing it. I don't want to force the developer to do anything. I just ignore them. That's what's beautiful about being an individual. What's not beautiful is forcing artists to lose their individuality because you or even most people disagree with it. It all worked itself out for Rape Day since it was pulled from Steam so I fail to see how that helps your argument that game developers should be forced to alter their story to fit gender percentages or anything similar.
The more representation game developers have, the better off they will always be. Closing down that representation is a horrible idea.
Do you or do you not respect the sacred vision of the creator's of Rape Day. This is a yes or no question.
So what you're saying to minorities here is "Tough luck, I don't give a shit about you, if you don't like that an overwhelming majority of video games star white cishet protagonists and have no meaningful representation of your marginalized group, then don't play them. Stop complaining and just take it, you don't deserve jack."
fUlFiLlInG A QuOtA Is dUmB AnD FoR ThE WrOnG ReAsOnS.
Meanwhile, in this industry, we apparently have a quota of 99%+ cishet chars and that's totally fine. Author's vision and all.