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LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?
- Thread starter Deleted member 2840
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This whole question is straight up just going sledding on the slippery slope fallacy. "If we start putting in gay characters, when will the madness end???" Like, realistically speaking even if the push for more LGBT characters succeeds it won't come close to pushing out the decades of entrenched IP chock full of straight cis white guys, and it certainly won't stop anyone from putting out a game like that, but if consumers decide that they want to support games that go another route, for whatever fucking reason that might be, what's wrong with that? When the day comes out that no straight white men have been in a single video game for a whole year, then we can talk. But until that day comes, who fucking gives a shit?
Why should devs need to justify going even the slightest outside of social norms? Why should audiences care about having to "tow the lines" when all they want is to see more media that agknowledges their existence?
Why should devs need to justify going even the slightest outside of social norms? Why should audiences care about having to "tow the lines" when all they want is to see more media that agknowledges their existence?
Yep exactly. People vouching for accurate numbers sure as hell didnt have a problem when 100% of characters in a game were all white dudes, that shit wasnt accurate either.
In games where you romance someone there should definitely be an option to be gay. But other than that it should be proportional, 50/50 is ridiculous.
But proportional by what margin? In the real world diversity isn't equally distributed. Bumfuck Kansas isn't gonna have the same ratio of LGBT to notLGBT as, like, idk, San Francisco. But they're both real places that really exist. Tying yourself to proportions gets you Captain Planet tokenism. And, on another level, devs aren't limited to making games based off reality either, that'd be dumb. The only real limiting factor here, is just the history of marginization that leads to a push for more diversity in media. So you could make a game with no LGBT characters for no reason, but who would benefit from that, beyond maybe /v/? And you could justify only making games where the historically accurate context "forces" you to make the casts straight but, again, why constrain the range of writing that much?
It's Pascal's Wager, basically. If you add quality queer representation you, at worst, gain no extra sales but better your skills as a writer by reaching outside your familarity zone. At best, you gain sales and hardcore fans because you've gone out to make them feel included in your worlds. And if you go out of your way to exclude it, the only real sales and attention you're getting are from the sorts of people you really don't want to be getting attention from.
Hey fuck you I'm gay. Get out of here with your accusation.No RePrEsEnTaTiOn QuOtAs! LeT tHeM mAkE wHaT tHeY wAnT!
As a straight person.
I would like quality representations of LGBT first, stop the stigma of "the gay character" and some of the mythos behind it, treat them as normals and equals. Then we can talk about proportions.
I want the LGBT+ communities to feel represented with some great characters first. I know that because I have many friends who are gay, bi, even trans who want someone to look at and feel they can be them too.
I would like quality representations of LGBT first, stop the stigma of "the gay character" and some of the mythos behind it, treat them as normals and equals. Then we can talk about proportions.
I want the LGBT+ communities to feel represented with some great characters first. I know that because I have many friends who are gay, bi, even trans who want someone to look at and feel they can be them too.
User Banned (permanent): Trolling, dismissing efforts in representation and inclusivity as insincere; history of severe infractions.
A lot of the times when I come across a LGBT character in gaming it makes me roll my eyes.
Most of them are so shoehorned in it feels like the developer just wants to pander to the community without understanding what they actually go through on a day to day basis.
The same with minorities really, but that's improved in the past 10 or so years.
If you're not going to do the characters sexuality justice then just ignore it entirely
Most of them are so shoehorned in it feels like the developer just wants to pander to the community without understanding what they actually go through on a day to day basis.
The same with minorities really, but that's improved in the past 10 or so years.
If you're not going to do the characters sexuality justice then just ignore it entirely
I meant it in a more general sense since there were only 2 options given. Of course I think it shouldn't be as strict as that, some games could have more gay characters and others less. I want it to be more common than it is at the moment, but I don't want devs just making everyone gay. Funny enough I didn't like when Bioware started making every character bisexual for example, I think characters should have a defined sexuality and be somewhat realistic (hence the 'proportional').
Well sure, if you want to pick up on this great!
I can interpret what they are saying just fine - he or she is making the same point a lot of people are making in this thread, there really are only a handful of responses being given in this thread and they're all very typical, they may be totally valid but they're nothing new.
My point to Pekola is to ask, "ok, now what? you assert this "diversity boogeyman" and any mention of it is not smart or measured, it's narrowminded and defering to the status quo - so then what's the alternative? A... quota? Something else?
There are plenty of genuine, well-meaning and kind-hearted ideas floating around this thread that also make mention of the "diversity boogeyman." Don't discount them. Speaking as just one person and example, I myself would say, more effort and resources need to be put into trying to remove specific boundries and encourage a diverse pool of individuals into ALL roles within the industry (and there's a lot to unpack there, a lot of important work to be done and it'd be great to discuss that)... BUT I absolutely believe these concepts involving "diversity/equality of outcome" are very problematic and just not right for a variety of reasons. Emphasis should be on problematic and not right, I'm not overstating or whining or saying the world's gonna come to an end if a an outcome (more lgbtq in video games) is forced (quotas or something of the sort), it's just that that sort of scenario is problematic. It's not perfect... I'm sure we can do better... Etc. Etc.
Bisexual male here and bein' real? I've never really thought about it or cared particularly. It's a nice thing when it happens, but I feel like forcing it never really does any good in the long run. I don't want people to make characters gay, bi, etc just for the sake of them being so. If they happen to be, then cool but don't make their sexuality the character. Don't force it for the sake of appealing to the crowd that wants it. It doesn't feel right. I like well written, likable depthy characters, not characters that exist for one thing.
My issue with handling it proportionally (aside from it being brought up to justify excluding representation more often than not) is how accurate are these statistics for sexuality. How are you supposed to account for people in the closet for instance
what about titninjas and bikini knights? don't see dudes being dismissive of those. while people keep excusing those crowd pleasers, when it comes to lgbt representation it has to be of shakespearian quality or bust.
I'm not saying to cancel all titninjas, but when you look at the ratio, there's 1000s of titninjas and 0 jockstrap cowboys.
My point is that we're never gonna hit a point where "every character in gaming is gay" is going to be a realistic concern.
Re: Bisexual NPCs in RPGs, tbh I think it comes down to storytelling vs. fun. If you want to tell deep mediations on sexuality or really ground a player in a world, it makes sense to have defined sexualities. But if you just want the player to enjoy getting to bond with and explore a huge cast of quirky characters, gating options behind gender can come off as annoying at best and exclusionary to people who roleplay as themselves at worst. But most games work best with a blend of the two, letting some characters exist as their own entities outside of the player, and others just letting players have fun.
Did they really though? I mean, personally, I have felt incredibly limited by the romance options being so narrow. I've wanted my male Shepard to date Garrus, he was the only character I felt attracted to, but I wasn't allowed, that was a straight only relationship.
ME always has been roughly equal with the amount of straight to non-straight options, except for ME3, where non-straight options outweigh straight ones (7 bi and 2 same sex only opposed to 6 straight options - and I should also point out that ME3 introduced same sex only romances).
You could make that point about Dragon Age, but except for Inquisition, a lot of characters being bisexual was a thing from the onset, and Inquisition actually 'regressed' on that front, by having only 3 bisexual characters (one exclusive to a specific race) out of 8 romance options. DA1 had 2:2 and DA2 had, truly, everyone be bisexual.
And, frankly, I don't understand why characters being bisexual is an issue either way. Obviously, if you want to tell a story where the sexuality really and truly is a defining aspect, then of course, but something like the Bioware games, where you just are getting romantically involved with your favourite party members? I don't think it makes these games any worse for wear that these characters are bisexual. And bisexual does mean that straight variations are possible.
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Immersion is important to me. I don't like every single character being bisexual the same way I don't like every female character being desperately in love with my character 5 minutes after they meet in a lot of anime JRPGs. It makes me think their only purpose in the game is me being able to fuck them instead of being actual people with their own interests and motivations.
In games with story and lots of dialog I value immersion and realistic stuff over everything (the moment I lose that I either stop playing or start skipping every scene). I don't have a problem with every sim being effectively bisexual in The Sims for example because in that game I make the story in my own head if that makes sense.
I actually prefer DA3's approach to what they did in DA2.
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I think it works best if they simply naturally exist in the game as they do in real life. It doesn't have to be a "thing" we really think about. I know I don't think about the sexuality of straight characters unless theres some story/gameplay implications that make their sexuality important.
With that said, I'm all for some extra representation, as for too long gaming has pretended gay people don't exist.
With that said, I'm all for some extra representation, as for too long gaming has pretended gay people don't exist.