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Oct 29, 2017
1,100
What does it mean to be a Liberal?


Open-mindedness & Empathy: The fundamental value of liberalism is the belief in open-mindedness that - All adults have the right to live as they choose and do what they want, as long as they are not taking advantage of or violating the rights of others. Adherence to this single principle defines all liberal philosophy. This principle is why liberals were decades ahead of everyone else in being open to things such as civil rights, sex outside of marriage, interracial marriages, marijuana, marriage equality, transgendered lifestyles, foreign cultures, and pretty much anything that two consenting adults want to do to each other in the privacy of their own bedroom.


This fundamental belief that defines liberalism is such an appealing idea that when it is openly expressed and championed, it wins the majority of people over to the side of liberalism


What authoritarians miss is that this same value also means that people are free to think and say what they want without being bullied, harassed, doxed or threatened. Freedom of thought, freedom of expression and the right to privacy stem are liberal principles that stem from this value. If someone is wrong, do your best to educate them as to why their opinion is misguided. Attacking them means that you abandoned the very value you are espousing in order to sink to their level. In doing so, not only are you undermining your own argument, you are undermining liberalism altogether.


Equally important is the maxim that KarneeKarney brought up that best encapsulates Empathy - "Never attribute to malice, that which could be caused by ignorance." Authoritarians are far too quick to see the worst in every misstatement or poorly phrased quote. A reporter posts that he feels especially sad for the kids that were shot because they were such good students, and immediately the authoritarians on this form leaped to jump to the most malicious conclusion that the reporter clearly doesn't think all children's lives are valuable, rather than take it as the poorly phrased misstatement that it was.



How do liberals advance society?


Mahatma Gandhi proved that the most effective way to achieve liberal goals is not by attacking your enemies or bullying them into submission. It is by advocating for productive reforms, rejecting the human instinct to generalize and instead showing those with biases examples that go against their biased beliefs and opening their eyes so that at least some of their former enemies actually switch sides and become your allies. Gandhi consistently maintained that no one is beyond redemption, anyone can have their mind changed through this approach. And Martin Luther King Jr. referred to Gandhi as ''the guiding light of our technique of nonviolent social change" and credits this approach for achieving civil rights.


The most important tool that a liberal must possess is to gain the empathic understanding that not all biases are racist. Racism comes from a place of hate and resentment. Bias is a product of incomplete information, emotional reasoning and societal conditioning, and it can be reversed with engagement and education. Conflating bias with hatred doesn't do anyone any good. And it's also extremely dishonest because there is not a single person on the planet that can honestly claim to be free of biases.


For example, if someone makes a transphobic statement, it is usually not because they are a hateful bigot, it's because they have incomplete information about it and the idea challenges their childhood social conditioning. This is exacerbated by the fact that transphobia is a relatively new openly discussed topic, so more people are likely to be conditioned against it or have incomplete or incorrect information about it. It comes from a place of misinformation and lack of understanding, not hate. Most people here are far too quick to instantly personally attack such a poster, call them all sorts of names and demanding that they be banned rather than engaging with them to try to explain why their views on transgender people are incorrect. Such people are not liberals that have an open mind and empathy, they are authoritarians that prefer to bully those they disagree with into submission rather than engage them in conversation.


When the rest of the world saw homosexuality as a mental illness and transgender people as perverts, it was conservatives that resorted to name calling and thought policing and liberals that tried to empathize with people with a different perspective and lifestyle and stood alongside and advocated for them.


Dismissing those that act or say things that you disagree by calling the nazis (even if they have never once espoused any violent intent towards anyone that would justify comparing them to a group that committed mass murder), shutting down conversations with them and trying to prevent them from being allowed to speak, banning them from discussions, trying to get them fired even if they did nothing illegal, sharing their personal details publicly in order to unleash the internet army to inundate them with harassing calls and death threats is NEVER acceptable. Period. And if you think it is, if you think the ends justify the means, then you are not a liberal, you are an authoritarian. You are trying to bully those that disagree with you into submission and this method simply does not work, it actually creates a strong backlash. All you are doing is actively helping the right undermine the left.


When someone espouses biased statements, engage them in open dialogue, educate them as to why they are wrong. Prove them wrong. Don't take the shortcut of harassing them, banning them from the discussion outright, or doxxing them and then pat yourself on the back as if you achieved a win against racism. You didn't, just the opposite.



What do you mean Authoritarians are hijacking the left?


Below are the four quadrants of political ideology:

Ideology.png


Of these four, the Liberal Left quadrant is the only one that is driven purely by open mindedness and empathy towards even those that do not share their lifestyle, culture or beliefs. Meanwhile, authoritarianism on both the right and the left is driven by the desire to bully, dominate and subjugate anyone that does not share their worldview.


The GOP fall into the Authoritarian Right. Unfortunately, the Authoritarian Left while they may agree with the goals of democrats eagerly engage in the same strategies of the authoritarian right by engaging in thought policing, doxxing, harassing, black and white thinking, and attacking freedom of speech on campuses. These authoritarians have hijacked the Liberal moniker but they absolutely do not share their principles.


To be biased is to be human. Every single adult on this planet has some innate biases that formed as a result of happenstance. To be liberal is to have empathy, you have to do the work of figuring out why someone said what they said, or did what they did. And if the only explanation you can come up with is that you think they are evil, then you failed. Empathy requires that you understand the complex multitiered reasons that led to these biases. It requires that you not dismiss biased people as evil or irredeemable but that you instead figure out how best to provide context and challenge their prejudices. Most modern liberal culture has utterly failed at this. The internet instead rewards simplistic black and white hot takes and admonations of anyone that says something you disagree with. Those that try to actually try to put themselves in the shoes of people they disagree with and try to explain why they may have acted this way are dismissed by the left as sympathizers or as -ists themselves, ganged up on and blocked or banned from conversation. And this is precisely why the modern left are utterly failing in their efforts to prevent society from regressing.


True liberals, classical liberals, advocate for empathy even for those that say and do things they do not condone. They champion open communications, freedom of expression, nuance and they fight against black and white thinking. Liberals do not assume the worst in people, authoritarians do. Authoritarians resort to vague generalizations like White Privilage to attack anyone that doesn't share their views. Authoritarians blanketly attack with biased beliefs as racists and drive them away Liberals should always attempt to figure out why people with biases believe what they do, and attempt to change their minds with examples that provide context, challenge these prejudices and win them over to their side. That how Gandhi did it, that's how MLK did it, and that's the only damn hope we have of ensuring that another man like Trump doesn't rise to power.


Authoritarians however have no problems engaging in biases of their own. They militantly ban colleges from having guest speakers that disagree with their worldview and refuse to confront of acknowledge their own biases. Authoritarians do not see any irony or hypocrisy in prejudging an entire group based on the actions of some. They openly hate on all police officers, many hate on all members of the military and accuse all white people of white privilege and anyone that disagrees with them is a racist. If they instead tried to better understand why the bad actors behave the way they do, they could productively contribute to improving these institutions. They are happy to attribute racism as the sole explanation for law enforcement failures and are all too happy to say that all cops are evil instead of acknowledging the role that fear of life and limb, gun culture where many civilians are armed to the teeth, and inadequate training are likely contributors as well. If they stopped focusing so much energy on labeling an entire large swatch of people as evil, if they instead channeled that energy into advocating for productive reforms such as universal body cams, better training and zero tolerance for racism or corruption policies, they could actual make a difference instead of push people away from their cause. But instead, they are all too happy to attack the entire group with hateful accusations for the actions of some of it's members.

Would you agree with someone if they decide to be angry at, and put the blame on, all muslim people because of the actions of a few terrorists and the 20% or so of muslims that are sympathetic of terrorism. Ask yourself, how is that any different than blaming all cops for the actions of some of them?


Liberals need to openly and consistently reject authoritarian means and open the views of authoritarians on the left and show them that their actions are doing more harm than good. Liberals need to reclaim the high ground before their name gets even more dragged through the mud by the authoritarian Left that do not value freedom of expression, the right to privacy or freedom of thought. Empathy towards even those we disagree with is the only path towards changing minds and making progress.



Why is it so important to stop the Authoritarian Left?


Racism slowly dies when open discussion between people of different backgrounds and ideologies thrives. Racism thrives when freedoms dies and thought bubbles are formed.


For hundreds of years our society has steadily and progressively become less racist and less sexist with each passing generation but something switched a decade ago that led to the trend coming to a halt or possibly even going backwards. I posit that this new factor is social media, not only in its facilitation of right wing bubbles, but in it's empowering of authoritarian left bubbles to freely harass and attack anyone that doesn't share all of their views.


The authoritarian right had already sheltered itself into bubbles since open racism was no longer culturally tolerated. However it was the authoritarian left that hijacked the liberal moniker and engaged in thought policing and doxxing and closed discussion (even though freedom of expression and freedom of thought are integral to real liberalism) that pushed liberal circles into authoritarian left wing thought bubbles that drove centrists out as is being done all over the internet, including this site. This created the backlash to the left in general that is contributing to the decline of progressive thought and race relations.


Examples of left wing bubbles where the authoritarian left took control are rampant. Both old gaf and resetera are starting to trend down this people. It begins slowly. First, the people who express nonleft views points or defend conservatives are attacked by left authoritarians and then when they try to explain their perspective, they are outright banned. This pushes the forum in a slightly more authoritarian left direction. Then people that expressed views that didn't confirm to this lefter ideology are again dogpiled on then banned. With each banning the forum becomes more and more of authoritarian bubble where anyone that expresses any views that challenge this bubble are either banned or rendered afraid to post their perspective.


And subsequently anyone that pointed out there is a bubble now we're again dogpiled on then banned. And in pushing these people out or dog piling on them with one word insults and accusations instead of taking the time to empathetize with and convincingly challenge their viewpoint, you convey the false impression that liberalism does not respect freedom of expression and is a form of fascism and you drive them to the right.


A real liberal would be considerate of the fact that people have different perspectives, views and biases and would try to engage with them and educate them rather than attacking them and asking for them to be banned.


Liberals do not believe in thought policing, or name calling. They believe in trying to understand other people's perspectives, open conversation and discourse.


The authoritarian left do share some of the same goals as liberals but they absolutely do not share liberal ideals. They are loud and abuse any power they get to attack or ban people and stop conversation and thus they can quickly turn a forum like this one into a bubble. And in doing so, they do far more damage to the liberal causes than conservatives could ever hope to because they actively push people away from liberal ideology.


Yes, right wing bubbles are a far bigger issue and they do more harm and become more hateful and racist over time, but a forum that becomes an authoritarian left bubble where differing views even if they are coming from a place of misinformation rather than a place of hate are name called, dogpiled on then banned, only serves to push people away from the left.


I am sure many of you recall the story of Justine Sacco, the woman that accidently tweeted a private joke to a friend about AIDs in Africa who was targeted for doxxing by the authoritarian left that got her fired from her job and sent her multiple death threats and harassing calls that required her and her family to go into police protection. The authoritarians on the left loudly cheered the ruination of her life by the internet mob they unleashed. No one with empathy (ie. a real liberal) would be okay with treating someone this way over a private joke that meant no one any harm. A real liberal would take into account context and intent.


This behavior is not confined to either side. Many of you likely also remember the story of Adam Smith, the CFO that posted a youtube video of his drivethru encounter with a chick fil a employee challenging their corporations homophobic views. Yes, he was bully, probably deserving of a small fine for harrassment and being forced to apologize to the woman. He was instead targeted (by right wing bubbles) for doxxing, death threats, and lost his job and his family lost their home and are now homeless and living off of food stamps. And the authoritarians on the right happily cheer this on.


One of the more recent examples is the H&M store that was targeted for rioting and looting by left authoritarians because of a racist ad their corportate HQ put out and immediately took down (those who published the ad likely didn't even realize it was racist, why would any marketing company purposefully insult a whole class of people and lose out on customers and money. The individual store that was destroyed and the employees that rely on it to make a living were in no way responsible for the ad, but this clearly didn't matter to the authoritarian left.


The left would advance liberal causes much more effectively the moment it stops excusing authoritarians on their side. Once they do so, fascism would become associated exclusively with the right and the right will once again start to wither and die.






I encourage you to freely and without any attribution modify this essay as you wish, anyway that you wish, and share it on any forum or community that you fear is slowly turning into a bubble.
 
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excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
Nah

MLK also told the white moderate to go fuck themselves...

Under your definitions that wouldn't be empathetic and open minded of a different opinion.
 
Nov 18, 2017
1,273
More so with the old place but considering this is pretty much the exact same community the point still stands, this is one of the most authoritarian communities I've ever been a part of.
Good luck OP, problematic people here are probably gonna give you grief over this!
 
OP
OP
Nintendo Switch
Oct 29, 2017
1,100
Please read it guys and have some self inflection. The level of discourse here has gotten really antagonistic in general as of late. To the point where a lot of good people are starting to feel pushed out (and i don't mean alt-right people they are shits)

While I think the OP is a bit antagonistic I think some of the statements ring true. I think ultimately he wants the community to be friendlier and more understanding to people that perhaps don't understand the concepts of privilege, social justice and other Left ideals and instead of casting them out for their misunderstandings we bring them under our wing. remember that further division will just create conflict and chaos and thats not that kind of place that anyone wants to live in.

Left have always held themselves to higher standards (and rightfully so) we represent the side of science, facts and logic. We should try to avoid falling into the same pitfalls of the right.

Very well said. Pushing people out because they disagree with the way that terms like privilege are used to shut down conversation and debate is casting people out of liberalism instead of bringing them into it's wings.

Do you want more Trump voters or more soldiers to resist Trump? If you want the latter, then you damn well need to make more of an effort to recruit people to your cause, rather than ostracize and push them over to the other side.



Good job illustrating the very point that I made in my opening post. I am guessing you also tried to report me to try to get this thread deleted and me banned because you do not like the ideas that I espoused. If you would prefer to shut down discourse when confronted with uncomfortable ideas, then you are contributing to the stunting of social progress.
 
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Pat_DC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,630
This is a long post you have put a lot of time and thought into. That being said I do not agree with what I have read, though I need to go over it in more detail.
I am interested how do you propose people deal with Nazis? Or others who directly threaten and wish harm on someone due to their religion, race or sexual preference? Sorry if you covered it and I missed it.
 

TheFireman

Banned
Dec 22, 2017
3,918
I would probably err more on the authoritarian left then. I could give a fuck if some white supremacist has a happy, comfortable live because they only disagree with me. In fact, I actively hope they don't.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
what a load of self righteous pablum

i'm gonna open my mind to the possibility that nothing you just said has any tangible value

politics is a battle of ideas in a war of attrition, not a room where a bunch of center-right liberals and far right cryptofascists sit in rooms politely discussing just how blatantly they should fleece the electorate and let poor people die
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,978
Good job illustrating the very point that I made in my opening post. I am guessing you also tried to report me to try to get this thread deleted and me banned because you do not like the ideas that I espoused. If you would prefer to shut down discourse when confronted with uncomfortable ideas, then you are contributing to the stunting of social progress.

They're probably referring to how you're trying to make your essay into a chain letter.
 

Jerry

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,064
Thanks for that quadrant chart; really insightful. Would never have known what the labels were otherwise.
 
OP
OP
Nintendo Switch
Oct 29, 2017
1,100
I would probably err more on the authoritarian left then. I could give a fuck if some white supremacist has a happy, comfortable live because they only disagree with me. In fact, I actively hope they don't.

Like I explained in the OP, by "punching nazis" as left authoritarians pride themselves in doing, you are actively helping white supremecists by making them look more sympathetic and indirectly contributing to the oppression of those that you claim to advocating for.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
6,324
Good job illustrating the very point that I made in my opening post. I am guessing you also tried to report me to try to get this thread deleted and me banned because you do not like the ideas that I espoused. If you would prefer to shut down discourse when confronted with uncomfortable ideas, then you are contributing to the stunting of social progress.

"You made fun of me so you must be trying to SHUT ME DOWN"

lol
 

kadotsu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,504
I like how you wrote an essay, but forgot sourcing. I'm eagerly awaiting you posting some logic pedants 8 hour youtube video in the near future as an example of a ideal debate.
 

tuxfool

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,858
Like I explained in the OP, by doing this, you are actively helping white supremecists and indirectly contributing to the oppression of those that you claim to advocating for.
Lol no.

The supremacists will do what they will regardless of what you think. One doesn't even need to be forceful in their opinions of simple decency, the supremacists are that way because mere coexistence is abhorrent to their worldview.
 

Johnny Blaze

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,162
DE
A white supremacist trained by Maga inbreds just slaughtered children, right wingers are on the rise and the right rules the US, but hey lets talk about that evil authoritorian left.

If political spectrums would have skin color the left would basically be black people.
 

uncleniccius

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,082
Your point on transphobia is kind of interesting - homosexuality has been around for thousands of years and homophobia is still incredibly prevalent. Do you honestly believe that is the problem?

Also important to note that liberalism is body of thought, and people are liberals to different degrees. You talk about 'true liberals' but again, classic liberalism is just one strand of liberalism. I feel you need a slightly better understanding of liberal thought if you're going to write something like this, especially in what feels like a pedantic way.

I agree with a lot of what you say but don't like how/why you've said it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,324
By the by I fundamentally disagree with being fully liberal left. If shutting down hate speech and preventing wide platforms for poisonous ideas makes me authoritarian, you can call me Dr. Doom.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
"What does it mean to be a Liberal? Open mindedness and empathy." Stopped right there. Good luck with that and whatever other political compass pseudoscience you're trying to peddle. Hope you find the actual left at some point; best wishes.
 

nomis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,013
Good job illustrating the very point that I made in my opening post. I am guessing you also tried to report me to try to get this thread deleted and me banned because you do not like the ideas that I espoused. If you would prefer to shut down discourse when confronted with uncomfortable ideas, then you are contributing to the stunting of social progress.

All ideas are not created equal. Exhibit A being this OP. The more the Democrats and anyone to the left of them play by their own rules that "don't shut down discourse", the more the soulless Republican party will laugh while pillaging America and the Earth for every penny.
 
OP
OP
Nintendo Switch
Oct 29, 2017
1,100
This is a long post you have put a lot of time and thought into. That being said I do not agree with what I have read, though I need to go over it in more detail.
I am interested how do you propose people deal with Nazis? Or others who directly threaten and wish harm on someone due to their religion, race or sexual preference? Sorry if you covered it and I missed it.

By gaining an understanding of the root causes of their biases, providing them with context and examples that contradict these biases and thereby changing their mind, ever so slightly (it takes time to change someone's inherent biases). However, even if you only succeed in making them slightly less hateful and slightly more open minded, you made them that much less likely to harm or threaten someone. Where are beating them up is going to achieve what exactly? It will just make them more hateful towards both you and the people that you claim to be advocating for. It will just make them more like to harm someone.
 

ry-dog

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,180
Your post sounds nice on paper, but screams of privilege. Free speech is not freedom from consequences. Speech has consequences.

What am I supposed to say to a person that calls me "faggot" or thinks I am inferior to them? They're the bully, not the other way round.

Also going to need some receipts on those bans. Resetera isn't Neogaf, conservative voices aren't shut down. Shit posting or concern trolling is
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,985
Ann Arbor, Mi
What I like about the OP is that they've highlighted a distinction that many take for granted.

If you are going to be authoritarian, be authoritarian. Just don't pretend to be liberal....
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
No thank you OP. Our ire is directed accordingly.

Also anyone stating this forum has carried on from the last in terms of allowing conversations isn't paying attention. People get far more slack here than they did on gaf, imo sometimes a little too much.
 

Buzzman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,549
Like I explained in the OP, by doing this, you are actively helping white supremecists and indirectly contributing to the oppression of those that you claim to advocating for.
Fucking what
I'm sorry if you're too chickenshit to actively confront fascism and just want to have a debate about the merits of genocide. Don't you dare take that out on others who actually choose to do something.
 

Jupiter IV

Member
Jan 6, 2018
1,220
I am sure many of you recall the story of Justine Sacco, the woman that accidently tweeted a private joke to a friend about AIDs in Africa who was targeted for doxxing by the authoritarian left that got her fired from her job and sent her multiple death threats and harassing calls that required her and her family to go into police protection. The authoritarians on the left loudly cheered the ruination of her life by the internet mob they unleashed. No one with empathy (ie. a real liberal) would be okay with treating someone this way over a private joke that meant no one any harm. A real liberal would take into account context and intent.

No. Absolutely no. No one with empathy would say her "joke" was OK. Death threats and harrassment? Yeah, too far. But what she said was not only disgusting, but also unbelievably ignorant and damaging to those living with AIDS and the stigma that comes with it.
 

Deleted member 9986

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,248
I don't think you really get what liberalism is, ironically enough. It is not necessarily leftist. It is simply liberalism. You are maybe not as leftist as you think you are.
 

Jonnax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,920
Like I explained in the OP, by doing this, you are actively helping white supremecists and indirectly contributing to the oppression of those that you claim to advocating for.

Hahaha. What your argument boils down to is to have a seat with a racist and discuss why they are racist.

Or in your example, a transphobe isn't actually transphobic, they're actually misguided and and just a nice conversation to turn them into a more understanding person.

People's fundamental rights to exist, be who they are and have equal rights should not be a matter of political opinion.

Because that's what the right wingers say.
"oh why are you attacking me because I have different politics"
Like the politics they're talking about is farming subsidies rather than white supremacy .

It's pathetic to preach that you have show love and understanding to those that advocate violence and hate.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
This reads like a thinly veiled "Be tolerant to Nazis" kind of bullshit rhetoric. What the fuck.
 

kristoffer

Banned
Oct 23, 2017
2,048
Where are beating them up is going to achieve what exactly?
Ok, look, my position is that nobody should punch anybody else unless it's to, you know, stop a crime or self defense or whatever. But, probably, and I'm just spitballing here, there are varying degrees of tragedy in this world. When I drop something on my foot that's a minor tragedy, and when a mine with child laborers collapses that's probably near extreme end of tragedy. When someone who's really vile gets punched in the face, I care, but not as much as I'd care if someone's nice grandma was punched, and a little more than if he had coffee spilled on him. That can't be hard to comprehend.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
Oh boy, "private joke".

Mate, you're not even trying....

It means firing and charging the offending officer. It doesn't mean blanketly accusing all cops of being "pieces of human garbage" as many of the authoratrian left posters on this forum refer to them.

People are angry for good fuckin reason.

Who he hell are you telling them not to be?
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,316
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and that when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress. I had hoped that the white moderate would understand that the present tension in the South is a necessary phase of the transition from an obnoxious negative peace, in which the Negro passively accepted his unjust plight, to a substantive and positive peace, in which all men will respect the dignity and worth of human personality. Actually, we who engage in nonviolent direct action are not the creators of tension. We merely bring to the surface the hidden tension that is already alive. We bring it out in the open, where it can be seen and dealt with. Like a boil that can never be cured so long as it is covered up but must be opened with all its ugliness to the natural medicines of air and light, injustice must be exposed, with all the tension its exposure creates, to the light of human conscience and the air of national opinion before it can be cured.

In your statement you assert that our actions, even though peaceful, must be condemned because they precipitate violence. But is this a logical assertion? Isn't this like condemning a robbed man because his possession of money precipitated the evil act of robbery? Isn't this like condemning Socrates because his unswerving commitment to truth and his philosophical inquiries precipitated the act by the misguided populace in which they made him drink hemlock? Isn't this like condemning Jesus because his unique God consciousness and never ceasing devotion to God's will precipitated the evil act of crucifixion? We must come to see that, as the federal courts have consistently affirmed, it is wrong to urge an individual to cease his efforts to gain his basic constitutional rights because the quest may precipitate violence. Society must protect the robbed and punish the robber. I had also hoped that the white moderate would reject the myth concerning time in relation to the struggle for freedom. I have just received a letter from a white brother in Texas. He writes: "All Christians know that the colored people will receive equal rights eventually, but it is possible that you are in too great a religious hurry. It has taken Christianity almost two thousand years to accomplish what it has. The teachings of Christ take time to come to earth." Such an attitude stems from a tragic misconception of time, from the strangely irrational notion that there is something in the very flow of time that will inevitably cure all ills. Actually, time itself is neutral; it can be used either destructively or constructively. More and more I feel that the people of ill will have used time much more effectively than have the people of good will. We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people. Human progress never rolls in on wheels of inevitability; it comes through the tireless efforts of men willing to be co workers with God, and without this hard work, time itself becomes an ally of the forces of social stagnation. We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right. Now is the time to make real the promise of democracy and transform our pending national elegy into a creative psalm of brotherhood. Now is the time to lift our national policy from the quicksand of racial injustice to the solid rock of human dignity.
 

Clowns

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,858
Good job illustrating the very point that I made in my opening post. I am guessing you also tried to report me to try to get this thread deleted and me banned because you do not like the ideas that I espoused. If you would prefer to shut down discourse when confronted with uncomfortable ideas, then you are contributing to the stunting of social progress.
What incredible amounts of paranoia expressed in one post just because someone didn't like your thread.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
Like I explained in the OP, by doing this, you are actively helping white supremecists and indirectly contributing to the oppression of those that you claim to advocating for.
There is nothing empathetic about the mindset of white supremacy. If insulting the people who are interested in the destruction and/or subjugation of entire peoples makes them more interested in that goal then the issue is with them and not the people unwilling to play nice with them. Here's the thing: White supremacists don't need "help". They never did. This country was founded on white supremacy that wasn't "indirectly" bolstered by snipes from forum posters. It's a mindset that does not follow any rules. It does not respond to empathy or kindness. It's a mindset about destruction for supremacy and that is the long and short of it. Which is why I never jive with posts like yours because it approaches ending racism and white supremacy as though you've reached some epiphany when you haven't. People have literally played every angle possible to reduce racism, bigotry, homophobia, misogyny for the sake of their own lives and at the cost of them and have only reduced it rather than ended it because it isn't something that can be snuffed out by simply following charts and 5 steps. You battle it and try to survive. You actively swat it so it doesn't creep into places of power.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
Let's get one thing out of the way: mob justice is never acceptable. The anonymous online masses who harass and attack people or businesses for a minor mistake or on the basis of assumed guilt are flat out wrong.

That said, we should be careful not to associate disproportionate mob justice with the necessary business of defending humanistic principles against hatemongers. And we definitely shouldn't mistake the act of maintaining standards of decency and fair conduct as thought policing.

Some people's views amount to pure bigotry. Those individuals may see reason in private conversation or by absorbing stories that open their minds, but they definitely don't deserve a platform or equal time to spread hatred when they have no intention of being equal participants in good faith discourse between reasonable people who disagree.

Antisocial rhetoric that promotes tribalism and dehumanizes people for their differences should be chastened and discouraged. Just as civilized society doesn't tolerate antisocial behavior like spitting and threatening, we need to take a strong stance against shit-stirrers who want to bully, deport, enslave, or destroy people who aren't part of their nasty gang.
 

kristoffer

Banned
Oct 23, 2017
2,048
It means firing and charging the offending officer. It doesn't mean blanketly accusing all cops of being "pieces of human garbage" as many of the authoratrian left posters on this forum refer to them.
Ok, I unironically do use the phrase authoritarian left on occasion, but when you keep saying it over and over again, it's just kind of like you took the worst posts you've seen on this forum and blended them together into a strawman. Chill out!
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,324
By gaining an understanding of the root causes of their biases, providing them with context and examples that contradict these biases and thereby changing their mind, ever so slightly (it takes time to change someone's inherent biases). However, even if you only succeed in making them slightly less hateful and slightly more open minded, you made them that much less likely to harm or threaten someone. Where are beating them up is going to achieve what exactly? It will just make them more hateful towards both you and the people that you claim to be advocating for. It will just make them more like to harm someone.

But you're putting the impetuous on the people suffering to convince those with a bad/hateful worldview to change. Yes maybe you get more flies with honey than with salt. Yes it's obviously more productive. But realistically lots of people never get their view changed, and at that point you need measures to prevent any bigotry from being able to hurt innocent people, or being normalised.

This whole sit down with a racist thing shouldn't be the standard that people should hold themselves to. Not having hateful views in the first place should be.
 
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