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Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
464
Does context not matter, or is just the phrase "how dare you assume" now automatically an anti-transperson non-joke regardless of the subject?

I mean even then, the non-joke is usually "did you just assume my gender" and not "how dare you assume [Ricky Gervais, I guess?]".

You can dunk on me for over-analyzing a tweet but that's literally the subject of this now 11-page long thread.
 
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muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,434
a sunken pirate ship
How would you apply the pronouns joke to this conversation?

Like, the only pronoun to come up in the tweet she's responding to is "I". And if she's still "identifying" as Ricky in this joke, how? It makes even less sense as a response. The context you're fitting around this tweet makes no sense.
I mean the arguably 'canonical' form of the joke is "~ assume my gender", not "~ assume my pronouns". There's some metatextual stuff going on here that you're missing (which, again, is why people aren't interpreting this charitably).

I dunno, maybe you can do something funny with the joke, but you have to actually go past the setup, I think, in order to not fall into this trap.
Maybe something like "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais -- Oh hi Ricky! Didn't see you at first. How's the weather up there?"
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,627
As someone who isn't trans, I want others to correct me when I do something that is anti-trans. I feel that if I'm coddled it will just lead to me continuously to make the same mistakes over and over.

Also, personal hot take time, but I feel like we put allies too much on a pedestal. An ally shouldn't be given leeway just because they say they are an ally. They also need to follow through. If they make a mistake they need to correct and apologize, even if the intent wasn't to be anti-trans.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
464
I mean the arguably 'canonical' form of the joke is "~ assume my gender", not "~ assume my pronouns". There's some metatextual stuff going on here that you're missing (which, again, is why people aren't interpreting this charitably).
But gender didn't even come up in what she was responding to. So the argument is that Lindsay segued into a non-joke about gender identity in a tweet response about Ricky Gervais namesearching himself, without even framing the non-joke correctly. Like, the most you can say is that she half-assed the non-joke out of irony, but it's still just thrown in their completely unprompted if you want to fit it in that context. How does that make more sense than the idea that she's joking about Ricky namesearching himself, since that's literally what they're talking about?
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
10,434
a sunken pirate ship
But gender didn't even come up in what she was responding to. So the argument is that Lindsay segued into a non-joke about gender identity in a tweet response about Ricky Gervais namesearching himself, without even framing the non-joke correctly.
Again, the whole reason that people were even talking about Gervais was that he was being a dipshit about trans issues in public. If it were not for that context the ensuing discussion and dunking on Gervais would probably not have happened. This is why people are using that context to interpret the tweet.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,407
As someone who isn't trans, I want others to correct me when I do something that is anti-trans. I feel that if I'm coddled it will just lead to me continuously to make the same mistakes over and over.

Also, personal hot take time, but I feel like we put allies too much on a pedestal. An ally shouldn't be given leeway just because they say they are an ally. They also need to follow through. If they make a mistake they need to correct and apologize, even if the intent wasn't to be anti-trans.
This is the heart of the issue. It's ok to fuck up and make mistakes, we're only human, it happens. But when you make a mistake it's important to realize you made a mistake, apologize and try to do better.

The problem is that is that a lot of people on the left have been fucking up recently but instead of doing any of what I said above they either don't acknowledge what they did or they act like what they did was fine and really you're the bad person for bringing it up in the first place.

Combine that with a fanbase that puts them on a pedestal and stans for them and you see why things have gotten toxic lately.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,027
This is a forum yes, people express their view and opinion, give their take on whatever, including this. You wanna make it restrictive and only trans people comment on this issue because we know better and cis people will never understand? Okay. In that case I still believe it is being blown out of proportion, that context and intent are very much important in this particular case and some are very keen on tearing her to shreds no matter how this would be handled.

And what exactly do you mean we're told we're wrong? By whom? Am I excluded for being told "we're wrong"? How come? I'm not following very well



You can read it above if it's still not clear.
Thank you. I guess we just disagree that people in the thread are tearing her to shreds instead of just posting about something that's disappointed them off the back of recent sentiment.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,016
Does context not matter, or is just the phrase "how dare you assume" now automatically an anti-transperson non-joke regardless of the subject?

I mean even then, the non-joke is usually "did you just assume my gender" and not "how dare you assume [Ricky Gervais, I guess?]".

You can dunk on me for over-analyzing a tweet but that's literally the subject of this now 11-page long thread.
Her other transphobic tweet is the context.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,384
Here's a Tweet thread correctly dunking on people that make these kinds of jokes. (She is trans btw.)
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Southern California
But gender didn't even come up in what she was responding to. So the argument is that Lindsay segued into a non-joke about gender identity in a tweet response about Ricky Gervais namesearching himself, without even framing the non-joke correctly. Like, the most you can say is that she half-assed the non-joke out of irony, but it's still just thrown in their completely unprompted if you want to fit it in that context. How does that make more sense than the idea that she's joking about Ricky namesearching himself, since that's literally what they're talking about?
It's a well-known method of mocking trans folx.
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,610
Canadia
So, her desire not to be mocked is more important to her than owning up to using a transphobic joke that harmed trans folx?

If that were the case, that's not really being progressive. It's being shitty to trans people out of fear of being laughed at.
Yes, and when you put it like that, I think it clears up the reason she ought to respond to the trans people criticizing her. It's not people speaking on behalf of trans people, it's trans people themselves who are saying "okay, but FYI, what you said was actually harmful to us; here's why. Just so you know."
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,217
If you acknowledge they are harmful why are you in here shouting down trans people and trying to determine what is and isn't an acceptable amount of frustration to exhibit?

Discussing something in a forum thread isn't judging someone into oblivion. People are justified in their frustration as this comes off the back of a growing sentiment over the past few months. More specifically it also comes a week after Linday had this to say regarding the non-binary community:


There is no hysteria. Patience is growing thin in this area, people are discussing their frustrations. I'd recommend going to Twitter and bemoaning the people actually throwing abuse at her directly instead of running in to dismiss a thread of trans people discussing something within their own community.
You know what, you’re right. I apologize. I have no right to say how anyone should feel about it/process it. I was only quick to defend her because I feel like a lot of Era users are judgmental and hypocritical as hell, and I was pretty much just lashing out. But at the end of the day she didn’t delete all her tweets and her “jokes” can absolutely be used to signal boost and cause harm, so criticism is warranted.

Again, I apologize :( I really don’t mean to downplay or undermine anyone’s feelings or struggles.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Southern California
You know what, you’re right. I apologize. I have no right to say how anyone should feel about it/process it. I was only quick to defend her because I feel like a lot of Era users are judgmental and hypocritical as hell, and I was pretty much just lashing out. But at the end of the day she didn’t delete all her tweets and her “jokes” can absolutely be used to signal boost and cause harm, so criticism is warranted.

Again, I apologize :( I really don’t mean to downplay or undermine anyone’s feelings or struggles.
Thank you for considering the issues, and for the apology. :)
 
Feb 8, 2019
573
So why doesn't she just apologize?
When someone like Pewdiepie says some shit and doesn't apologize, I can chalk that up to him not wanting to alienate his right winged fanbase since they seem to believe apologizing for ANYTHING is the worst sin of them all.

But what's with Lindsay? It's not like she would lose any fans if she apologized, what's stopping her? It seems like a completely risk free thing to do.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,501
So why doesn't she just apologize?
When someone like Pewdiepie says some shit and doesn't apologize, I can chalk that up to him not wanting to alienate his right winged fanbase since they seem to believe apologizing for ANYTHING is the worst sin of them all.

But what's with Lindsay? It's not like she would lose any fans if she apologized, what's stopping her? It seems like a completely risk free thing to do.
Probably doesn’t want to jeopardize the big career thing she’s hinted at on twitter. Or she doesn’t think she did anything wrong.
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
1,909
So why doesn't she just apologize?
When someone like Pewdiepie says some shit and doesn't apologize, I can chalk that up to him not wanting to alienate his right winged fanbase since they seem to believe apologizing for ANYTHING is the worst sin of them all.

But what's with Lindsay? It's not like she would lose any fans if she apologized, what's stopping her? It seems like a completely risk free thing to do.
Stubborn pride would be my guess.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,444
So why doesn't she just apologize?
When someone like Pewdiepie says some shit and doesn't apologize, I can chalk that up to him not wanting to alienate his right winged fanbase since they seem to believe apologizing for ANYTHING is the worst sin of them all.

But what's with Lindsay? It's not like she would lose any fans if she apologized, what's stopping her? It seems like a completely risk free thing to do.
In her defense of Contrapoints she said "clearly apologies do not work and are not believed".
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,027
You know what, you’re right. I apologize. I have no right to say how anyone should feel about it/process it. I was only quick to defend her because I feel like a lot of Era users are judgmental and hypocritical as hell, and I was pretty much just lashing out. But at the end of the day she didn’t delete all her tweets and her “jokes” can absolutely be used to signal boost and cause harm, so criticism is warranted.

Again, I apologize :( I really don’t mean to downplay or undermine anyone’s feelings or struggles.
Appreciate that, thank you for taking the time to consider the post and reflect on your view.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,685
So why doesn't she just apologize?
When someone like Pewdiepie says some shit and doesn't apologize, I can chalk that up to him not wanting to alienate his right winged fanbase since they seem to believe apologizing for ANYTHING is the worst sin of them all.

But what's with Lindsay? It's not like she would lose any fans if she apologized, what's stopping her? It seems like a completely risk free thing to do.
We're talking about the same person who posted a huge rant that included this:
 

Melkr_

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,324
Not her pulling a Nina West and not apologizing / acknowledging the situation. Wow.
 

TheModestGun

Member
Dec 5, 2017
2,747
Hmm, I saw those tweets when she posted them and they seemed to very clearly be mocking the cheap petty shittyness of Ricky Gervais’s jokes.

I could see how when decontextualized though that they come off as transphobic, so I definitely won’t judge anyone for finding them distasteful.
 

Melkr_

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,324

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,117
I sort of expected her ego would prevent her from acknowledging this, which is the most disappointing thing to come out of all of this for me.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Southern California
Hmm, I saw those tweets when she posted them and they seemed to very clearly be mocking the cheap petty shittyness of Ricky Gervais’s jokes.

I could see how when decontextualized though that they come off as transphobic, so I definitely won’t judge anyone for finding them distasteful.
Please read the thread. It's been explained repeatedly. The form of joke itself is an extremely common form of mocking trans folx.
 

SoZetaSlow

Member
Sep 20, 2019
393
In her defense of Contrapoints she said "clearly apologies do not work and are not believed".
I forget, did she actually explain that statement further? Cause as far as I remember there have been very few proper lefttube dramas and the ones where the creator apologised usually went away quickly and the previous Contra controversy before the current one simmered down when she finally apologised, which technically she didn't say sorry but she said she'd do better so close enough I guess
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,117
I’m a little irritated because it’s actually not hard to come out with an adequate and somewhat face saving apology. All she’d have to do is express what was wrong with those tweets in like three short sentences, it wouldn’t even require her to be particularly contrite or anything imo. But nah that would be ‘falling on her sword’ and would be way too much to ask.
 
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Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,205
You're kidding right? I didn't bring that up until I read that from you and the other poster. What arguments are you expecting, I don't understand? You're trying to muddy the waters and I'm calling you out, that bashing her for this particular thing is kinda undeserved. Why? because it's clear as day what the intent was with that dumb tweet and you're trying to make it into what it isn't and I don't like this kind of thing. Of course it's a transphobic joke, nobody denies this. But...forest from the trees. Intent and context are important here, don't you agree?
Gods damn it. Intent does not matter. It doesn't mean jack shit what you intend to do when you still actively cause harm. Jesus. Is that so hard to grasp?
 

Boiled Goose

Member
Nov 2, 2017
9,297
If you understand intent.
If you understand the person.

Then her potentially making a mistake and hopefully learning why too much nuance my be diluted and become offensive is a meh from me.

Of course.. the hope is that she learns and just says. Didn't work, sorry. Move on.
 

bad kitty

Member
Sep 7, 2018
313
Babylon
Gods damn it. Intent does not matter. It doesn't mean jack shit what you intend to do when you still actively cause harm. Jesus. Is that so hard to grasp?
It does not matter to you, sure. But it does to me though in this particular circumstance. I've already stated how I feel about this. That's called a personal opinion. Also you might wanna dial that tone down a little bit.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,205
It does not matter to you, sure. But it does to me though in this particular circumstance. I've already stated how I feel about this. That's called a personal opinion. Also you might wanna dial that tone down a little bit.
It does not matter in general, your opinion is invalid when something does damage to people even though you shrug it off. Also don't tone police me.
 

bad kitty

Member
Sep 7, 2018
313
Babylon
It does not matter in general, your opinion is invalid when something does damage to people even though you shrug it off. Also don't tone police me.
Oh?

wow, you're full of yourself aren't you.

If you're adressing me keep at least a shred of politeness and a decent tone. Otherwise talk to your pals or whomever else you desire like that darling. Aight?

And don't @ me again or consider yourself muted. Take care now.