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Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,172
Oh?

wow, you're full of yourself aren't you.

If you're adressing me keep at least a shred of politeness and a decent tone. Otherwise talk to your pals or whomever else you desire like that darling. Aight?

And don't @ me again or consider yourself muted. Take care now.
If you want people to address you with politeness and a decent tone, maybe don't make a post dripping in this much condescension.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,204
Oh?

wow, you're full of yourself aren't you.

If you're adressing me keep at least a shred of politeness and a decent tone. Otherwise talk to your pals or whomever else you desire like that darling. Aight?

And don't @ me again or consider yourself muted. Take care now.
Interesting how someone would talk about someone being full of themselves when having these sorts of demands.
 

bad kitty

Member
Sep 7, 2018
310
Babylon
Interesting how someone would talk about someone being full of themselves when having these sorts of demands.
I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don’t pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
I mean it's throwing their one joke back in the face of the people who use it. Whether or not she has the 'right' to do so (not being trans herself) is a matter I can't really speak on, but I think you have to ignore everything about who she is to think the joke itself is problematic in this context.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,010
Of course.. the hope is that she learns and just says. Didn't work, sorry. Move on.
I think there's an additional step there where they move on and don't repeat the mistake. The actions following one account for part of the consideration as well. So you hope that people learn and move on. That hope isn't a concept lost on people here either, considering most supported Contrapoints through all of the mishaps prior to recent events.

The irritation in someone telling a transphobic joke they won't be hit by if it misfires is amplified by if they've recently talked down to that same community they're taking the gamble over. You don't declare a portion of the trans community insatiable in their discontent and not worth apologising to before toeing the line of what cis people should be throwing out.

That's kind of the additional issue with this case. Usually you'd hope for something like:
blunder -> apology -> learn and move on

Except we have
"why would people apologize to you?" -> blunder -> ... -> so, anyway

Intent is part of it of course, but it's softened coming off the back of the above. As seems to be the case - she’s moved on, so really all that’s left is to hope she’s learned and won’t repeat it or put out a shitty statement. I don’t think people are particularly unjustified in expressing frustration all things considered (speaking more generally than suggesting you take issue).
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
I mean it's throwing their one joke back in the face of the people who use it. Whether or not she has the 'right' to do so (not being trans herself) is a matter I can't really speak on, but I think you have to ignore everything about who she is to think the joke itself is problematic in this context.
Typically, when you throw a joke back at someone while making it, you offer commentary on the joke to clarify why you're throwing the joke back.

Simply replicating the content of a problematic joke is problematic itself because regardless of the context of the repeated joke, the content is still inherently hurtful and damaging. Lindsay could've just added an extra line to the tweet presenting commentary on the original problematic humor and it would have gone over significantly better, but she didn't. As such, she is perpetuating the harmful stereotyping that the original joke was espousing in the first place because she literally just made the same joke again.

There is a way to de-power a harmful joke, and Lindsay did not do that.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
Typically, when you throw a joke back at someone while making it, you offer commentary on the joke to clarify why you're throwing the joke back.

Simply replicating the content of a problematic joke is problematic itself because regardless of the context of the repeated joke, the content is still inherently hurtful and damaging. Lindsay could've just added an extra line to the tweet presenting commentary on the original problematic humor and it would have gone over significantly better, but she didn't. As such, she is perpetuating the harmful stereotyping that the original joke was espousing in the first place because she literally just made the same joke again.

There is a way to de-power a harmful joke, and Lindsay did not do that.
I can see how it would look that way to people who don't watch her stuff/follow her on twitter, so fair point in that regard, but for anyone familiar with her I think it's clear she's elucidating how absurdly stupid those jokes are when used genuinely.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
I can see how it would look that way to people who don't watch her stuff/follow her on twitter, so fair point in that regard, but for anyone familiar with her I think it's clear she's elucidating how absurdly stupid those jokes are when used genuinely.
Right, it's likely she did not intend to hurt trans people's feelings with the joke, but intent is only part of the equation.

Let me put it another way: if a white person makes fun of a racist who uses the n-word a lot by cartoonishly using the n-word to "illustrate how stupid" the racist is, is it still problematic? Yes. Because the first white person is still a white person using the n-word.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
Right, it's likely she did not intend to hurt trans people's feelings with the joke, but intent is only part of the equation.

Let me put it another way: if a white person makes fun of a racist who uses the n-word a lot by cartoonishly using the n-word to "illustrate how stupid" the racist is, is it still problematic? Yes. Because the first white person is still a white person using the n-word.
I was just doing that exact mental exercise. Lindsay is bi, right? And it wouldn't be inappropriate or unexpected for her to say "I identify as a cis bisexual woman". The n-word is for black people to use only, obviously, but does "I identify as blah blah" jokes mock specifically trans people, or anyone who acknowledges and respects the fact that people can identify as something other than what they're born as? The former more than the latter, sure, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as a white person using the n-word.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
8,925
I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don’t pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.
This is not a good post.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
I was just doing that exact mental exercise. Lindsay is bi, right? And it wouldn't be inappropriate or unexpected for her to say "I identify as a cis bisexual woman". The n-word is for black people to use only, obviously, but does "I identify as blah blah" jokes mock specifically trans people, or anyone who acknowledges and respects the fact that people can identify as something other than what they're born as? The former more than the latter, sure, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as a white person using the n-word.
Keep in mind that "Attack helicopter" jokes are definitely intended to mock trans people specifically. Transphobes took a real statement - "I identify as female" or "I identify as genderfluid" and so on - and twisted it into something comical and derisive that negates the experiences of real people who experience gender dysphoria.

Lindsay then took that joke and used it the exact same way transphobes do. That's why it's hurtful. Even if she didn't mean it to be, it's still perpetuating the meme that people who identify as something other than the sex or gender they were assigned at birth are being silly.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,465
Keep in mind that "Attack helicopter" jokes are definitely intended to mock trans people specifically. Transphobes took a real statement - "I identify as female" or "I identify as genderfluid" and so on - and twisted it into something comical and derisive that negates the experiences of real people who experience gender dysphoria.

Lindsay then took that joke and used it the exact same way transphobes do. That's why it's hurtful. Even if she didn't mean it to be, it's still perpetuating the meme that people who identify as something other than the sex or gender they were assigned at birth are being silly.
This is a good explanation
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
Keep in mind that "Attack helicopter" jokes are definitely intended to mock trans people specifically. Transphobes took a real statement - "I identify as female" or "I identify as genderfluid" and so on - and twisted it into something comical and derisive that negates the experiences of real people who experience gender dysphoria.

Lindsay then took that joke and used it the exact same way transphobes do. That's why it's hurtful. Even if she didn't mean it to be, it's still perpetuating the meme that people who identify as something other than the sex or gender they were assigned at birth are being silly.
Again, fair point. I appreciate you discussing this with me btw.

Out of curiosity, if Natalie Wynn made this joke, it would be fine, right? It's interesting to me this sense of ownership over certain harmful jokes within the LGBTQI+ Community versus 'racist' or racially sensitive jokes within a particular minority. A Trans person would be frowned upon for making bisexual 'jokes', I assume?
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,756
Again, fair point. I appreciate you discussing this with me btw.

Out of curiosity, if Natalie Wynn made this joke, it would be fine, right? It's interesting to me this sense of ownership over certain harmful jokes within the LGBTQI+ Community versus 'racist' or racially sensitive jokes within a particular minority. A Trans person would be frowned upon for making bisexual 'jokes', I assume?
Note: A trans person can be bisexual just like a cis person can.

The general rule of thumb is it's not really wise to make jokes about marginalized groups unless you're part of the group in question, and even then, it's still possible to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and negative cultural memes from within a marginalized group.

Punch up, not down. Whenever possible.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,675
Note: A trans person can be bisexual just like a cis person can.

The general rule of thumb is it's not really wise to make jokes about marginalized groups unless you're part of the group in question, and even then, it's still possible to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and negative cultural memes from within a marginalized group.

Punch up, not down. Whenever possible.
Yeah, the way I see it is that identity is very personal and serious and 1000% inappropriate as a subject for jokes. I consider following "I identify as" with anything other than your actual identity to be hurtful in the context of how serious identity is and also in the context of the history of bigoted "attack helicopter" jokes.

Here's an example of someone making an "I identify as" joke in a way that's unambiguously mocking the bigoted way they're used rather than the subject itself:
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,212
Note: A trans person can be bisexual just like a cis person can.

The general rule of thumb is it's not really wise to make jokes about marginalized groups unless you're part of the group in question, and even then, it's still possible to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and negative cultural memes from within a marginalized group.

Punch up, not down. Whenever possible.
Thanks again for this. I just now saw the thread about ERA needing to do better with this stuff so I apologise if I came across ignorant/hurtful to anyone.
 

Alice

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,204
I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don’t pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.
Maybe you need to start understanding that this isn't about your opinion. Your opinion does not matter to the concerns people are having.

This is about the factual statement, that a person's intent simply does not matter when they make a damaging statement. Full stop.

If you, personally think it's cool if people make damaging statements as long as you know they "didn't mean it that way", then that's fine, for you, but don't you dare telling people it's not a damaging statement because "she didn't mean it that way".
 

Jombie

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,492
Alabama
User Banned (1 Week): Trolling in a Sensitive Thread
Just to let some of you know, you can now buy her official merchandise. Only $25 a shirt.
 
OP
OP
Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,501
UK
While her possible reasoning for avoiding an apology might be to not give right wing extremists fuel, maybe care more for your disappointed fans than trolls.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,009
While her possible reasoning for avoiding an apology might be to not give right wing extremists fuel, maybe care more for your disappointed fans than trolls.
Including all these other reasons, I'm curious how her impending book launch is affecting her choice not to comment on these posts. I can't imagine the last two-ish weeks have been good in her publisher's point of view. Still lame.
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,116
Is she known for having an ego? Honest question, I'm fairly new to Ellis.
I couldn't say. I've actually been following her work basically since she started as a distaff counterpart of some other reviewer, but I think she might have reacted brusquely when other things haven’t worked in the past? And there was a Contrapoints and Hbomberguy livestream that she appeared in where she seemed a bit haughty with this other less prominent Bread tuber and I remember thinking it wasn’t a good look. Just vague impressions on my end, really.

But honestly the greater thing that annoys me about the whole Ellis/Bread Tube thing is how cliquey it all apparently is which I cannot give a shit about. To the point that it’s imo causing me to reevaluate the value of the more personality/identity/sensibility driven section of bread tube because I don’t really have the time to be getting somewhat emotionally invested in this messy shit lol.
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
19,204
I couldn't say. I've actually been following her work basically since she started as a distaff counterpart of some other reviewer, but I think she might have reacted brusquely when other things haven’t worked in the past? And there was a Contrapoints and Hbomberguy livestream that she appeared in where she seemed a bit haughty with this other less prominent Bread tuber and I remember thinking it wasn’t a good look. Just vague impressions on my end, really.

But honestly the greater thing that annoys me about the whole Ellis/Bread Tube thing is how cliquey it all apparently is which I cannot give a shit about. To the point that it’s imo causing me to reevaluate the value of the more personality/identity/sensibility driven section of bread tube because I don’t really have the time to be getting somewhat emotionally invested in this messy shit lol.
honest question -- what is bread tube?
 

Krejlooc

Indie Game Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
19,204

Some people also refer to 'left tube' but it's really more like center-left tube in aggregate.
I'm still not quite following, is this a site that aggregates left-leaning youtube content? Or is it it's own hosting platform? Do you join bread tube, or does it pick your content? I very honestly have never heard of this, and the front page to that site doesn't clarify.
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,116
I'm still not quite following, is this a site that aggregates left-leaning youtube content? Or is it it's own hosting platform? Do you join bread tube, or does it pick your content? I very honestly have never heard of this, and the front page to that site doesn't clarify.
aggregates youtube channels, at least for the most part.
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,116
She made a mistake, Lindsay is great otherwise. She probably won’t make it again.
At this point the only mistake I really care about is the weird doubling down. It should not be that hard to shoot out a quick tweet upon realizing the mistake that basically amounts to 'my bad'. What's most frustrating is that people want to and are inclined to forgive her, but we can't because she apparently doesn't think what she did was wrong or she would acknowledge it lol, so she's literally the one that made this an issue.

It also contributes to the worrying pattern of unconcern with some contingent of the fanbase (trans and NB people) being thrown under the bus. What was kind of heartbreaking about this situation for me was I realized that trans people rightfully expect the average person to be at best mildly or tacitly transphobic. That should tell you that their standards or expectations are really not very high.

I also think it's just dumb to develop a big ego or clique around what is just edutainment. They may have been the first and been able to seize on an opportunity with their talents but that's no reason for me to be concerned with their success, and anyone with an equivalent and relevant education and skills could fulfill the same role. When these people talk about parasocial relationships and how we don't really know them, they're right lol.

So it's kind of hard for me to think about this stuff and not also think that I could find a better use for my time.
 
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