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Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes

Nairume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine
There's a very fine line where you stop just letting jokes be jokes and you start allowing shitty things to be normalized. While I don't personally think Lindsay Ellis did anything worth getting cancelled over here, there is a good discussion to be had about knowing when to maybe hold back on a joke that might be more harmful than you intended.
 

Fisty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,680
Die a hero or live long enough to become a villian, seems like that always rings true these days
 

Doop

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
187
Do you people ever read threads
people would rather make a kneejerk response and dismiss trans and non-binary people than ever have to question their already held opinions. ironically they claim we're the ones who overreact when they're the ones who get upset every time someone receives even the mildest criticism from trans and non-binary people.
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,461
I dunno, I get why people may drop her or whatever but for me personally I'm willing to put this down to a stupid mistake. For me, she's earned the benefit of the doubt.

But I totally appreciate why people would feel differently from me.
I'm still going to watch her stuff, too. I think there's a tendency to present this situation as being really dichotomous when instead I'm sure a lot of people will compromise and continue to watch her work while maybe applying more reasonable scrutiny to her as a person.

Because I do think a fairly basic issue here is identity. Identity serves as the strong basis both for the livelihood and failure of people in her position (Lindsay herself did a video on it) and there's no way to avoid that because those are literally two sides of the same coin. If you're making money on an authentic personality then all of your strongest criticisms will find their basis there, too.
 

Ash735

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
906
A shame to see Lindsay get cancelled, she did a lot of great work over the years and was a personality I enjoyed watching.
 

Slayven

I don’t know what you’re talking about
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
41,970
Don't get high off your own supply .

Lack of malce doesn't erase damage.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,156
Don't they already have them? I feel like I've heard at least one of them mention something like that before in a video. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else?
Natalie doesn't run her own twitter anymore after she closed it after ranting about feeling threatened by non-binary people and non-“passing” binary trans people. This was also where she called herself “the last of the old-school transsexuals”.
 

Ventrue

Member
Oct 27, 2017
55
Even if you think the joke was bad - the circular firing squad of Twitter orthodoxy is worse. I hate to admit it, but Obama was right.
 

The Watcher

Member
Oct 29, 2017
950
The lack of malice doesn't change the fact that this is her, a cis woman, taking a dig at a idiot by repeating the same tired, disgusting "joke" that is used time and time again to disparage trans people's identities, with no variation whatsoever.

It's in extremely poor taste and thoughtless. Pretty disappointed in her tbh.
Maybe I'm giving Ms. Ellis too much credit, but I thought the failed attempt at the joke was the joke, with the capper being that she is Ricky Gervais.
Still, nice try no fly.
 

tatsu123

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,601
I've looked up Transmedicalism and i'm still a bit confused. So Buck Angel believes that one must go through the medical part (IE taking hormones, etc) to be considered TRULY transgender , and has issues with the term "non-binary". Am I on the right path, at least? So I get the being telling him he's wrong, but i'm uncomfortable criticizing him because I'm sure his experience wasn't a cake walk, based on what I've read of him. Is buck a shitty person, or does his views trickle to alt-right spaces that marginalized trans and non-binary issues, even if his argument is in good faith? I hope I'm expressing myself correctly here. If my summation of what transmedicalism is correct, I do not agree with Buck, even a little bit, but I didn't get the sense that he's trying to cater to any alt-right agenda.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,719
Ellis gets too worked up when she is on twitter.
All these Twitter controversies just make me think that Ellis and Wynn would be better off just hiring a social media manager.
This I agree with. Ellis loves to get down and dirty on Twitter and most of the time she’s good and fun there, but yeah, I can’t imagine being as busy as she or Wynn are and be that much time in Twitter.

I honestly don’t get why most people with their reach and busy schedule are on social media so much. Or how they find the time and energy to tweet about so many things.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,322
Even if you think the joke was bad - the circular firing squad of Twitter orthodoxy is worse. I hate to admit it, but Obama was right.
nobody cares. When the people who are frequently most marginalized ask you to stop making jokes at their expense, you should probably listen. Not compare them to a “firing squad”.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,167
I've looked up Transmedicalism and i'm still a bit confused. So Buck Angel believes that one must go through the medical part (IE taking hormones, etc) to be considered TRULY transgender , and has issues with the term "non-binary". Am I on the right path, at least? So I get the being telling him he's wrong, but i'm uncomfortable criticizing him because I'm sure his experience wasn't a cake walk, based on what I've read of him. Is buck a shitty person, or does his views trickle to alt-right spaces that marginalized trans and non-binary issues, even if his argument is in good faith? I hope I'm expressing myself correctly here. If my summation of what transmedicalism is correct, I do not agree with Buck, even a little bit, but I didn't get the sense that he's trying to cater to any alt-right agenda.
Yes, he believes you’re only trans if a doctor tells you you are. Thus anyone outside of that isn’t actually trans.

Also this:
 

umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,461
Even if you think the joke was bad - the circular firing squad of Twitter orthodoxy is worse. I hate to admit it, but Obama was right.
No one is putting Lindsay up for public execution, we're just realizing that she's actually pretty brash and dumb sometimes which rightfully subjects her to heightened scrutiny given her platform. This is not hard stuff.
 

Ketkat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,180
I've looked up Transmedicalism and i'm still a bit confused. So Buck Angel believes that one must go through the medical part (IE taking hormones, etc) to be considered TRULY transgender , and has issues with the term "non-binary". Am I on the right path, at least? So I get the being telling him he's wrong, but i'm uncomfortable criticizing him because I'm sure his experience wasn't a cake walk, based on what I've read of him. Is buck a shitty person, or does his views trickle to alt-right spaces that marginalized trans and non-binary issues, even if his argument is in good faith? I hope I'm expressing myself correctly here. If my summation of what transmedicalism is correct, I do not agree with Buck, even a little bit, but I didn't get the sense that he's trying to cater to any alt-right agenda.
Someone doesn't have to be alt-right in order to have transphobic views, and Buck Angel's views are gatekeeping bigotry that are used to deny rights and basic access to healthcare for both nonbinary people and people who don't experience dysphoria the same way that he did. There are a ton of people on the left that have issues with trans people and if you're only looking at this from an angle of left vs right, then you're missing the bigger picture.

He deserves criticism and if we don't criticize him then we're being incredibly poor allies to the people that are hurt by this rhetoric.
 

teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
She was trying to dunk on Gervais, whilst forgetting that in order to dunk on them, you need to attack them and their behavior.

And it's REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to make a joke that dunks on someone engaging in transphobia without engaging in transphobia.

Her punchline is: "Hurhur that's you, that's how you sound", when all she's really doing is making the same joke he is with him at the target, even though the joke is still transphobic. Tim Allen does this ALL THE TIME when it comes to misogynistic jokes.

It's a bad look and a simple "this is your weekly reminder that Ricky Gervias is a transphobic piece of shit" followed by a retweet or a screencap of his jokes would have been the better method to expose this to people who may not have known. But that's not funny.

Comedy is hard.
yep. Being outraged at this is so completely counterproductive.It is not the same as what the others do. Intent matters. People arguing that she is being transphobic are completely arguing in bad faith.
 

Ash735

Banned
Sep 4, 2018
906
I don’t know if there’s a way I can respond to this without getting banned but please, stop talking
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to dismiss her actions, that's why I'm saddened by this, she's usually on the ball about things but seeing her resort to transphobic jokes was just a massive wtf, who knows what else she jokes about behind closed doors if she freely thought she could get away with this pathetic outdated joke.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,968
Scotland
I'm still going to watch her stuff, too. I think there's a tendency to present this situation as being really dichotomous when instead I'm sure a lot of people will compromise and continue to watch her work while maybe applying more reasonable scrutiny to her as a person.

Because I do think a fairly basic issue here is identity. Identity serves as the strong basis both for the livelihood and failure of people in her position (Lindsay herself did a video on it) and there's no way to avoid that because those are literally two sides of the same coin. If you're making money on an authentic personality then all of your strongest criticisms will find their basis there, too.
Yeah, that's actually one my favourite videos of hers. Was something I hadn't honestly given serious thought to before.
 

loquaciousJenny

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,302
I don't really take issue with this one-off humorless joke. I don't see how she's normalizing anything here or spreading frustrating jokes and that comes from somebody who has had a long history of explaining why she hated helicopter and identify memes.

Like in context this was obviously trying to mock Gervais' poor humor and out of context it's such a mash nonsense that you have to be able to tell there is more to the story.

Joke was pretty boring and humorless either way though and could have benefited from a second draft but I could see myself making it in the heat of the moment.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,167
yep. Being outraged at this is so completely counterproductive.It is not the same as what the others do. Intent matters. People arguing that she is being transphobic are completely arguing in bad faith.
It’s a transphobic joke.

You’re also forgetting the part where she got bent out of shape defending Contrapoints from criticism and painted NB people out to be some rabid group that's never satisfied and isn’t worth apologising to.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,139
Even if you think the joke was bad - the circular firing squad of Twitter orthodoxy is worse. I hate to admit it, but Obama was right.
Mistakes can only be corrected if they are made aware of them. To ignore or pretend a problem isn’t there just allows for ignorance to show again.
 

GreatFenris

Member
Apr 6, 2019
275
There's a difference between cancelling someone and just wanting them to do better.
Not really, no. How many of those that tried to do better have earned the acceptance? I saw someone on ERA just last week blast James Gunn for those shitty old tweets he said for years ago. In this age, there's no forgiveness, no time to consider. All is fury, anger. Hell, I used to be overjoyed the Alt-Right were tearing itself apart...Then I realized a portion of the "Left" were just as eager to do it as well.
Like I get the Contrapoints thing...But this? I'm so fucking tired of people arguing in bad faith and claiming their view is the only right one. That's the telltale signs of a zealot, not someone fighting for a better damn tomorrow.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,504
Not really, no. How many of those that tried to do better have earned the acceptance? I saw someone on ERA just last week blast James Gunn for those shitty old tweets he said for years ago. In this age, there's no forgiveness, no time to consider. All is fury, anger. Hell, I used to be overjoyed the Alt-Right were tearing itself apart...Then I realized a portion of the "Left" were just as eager to do it as well.
Like I get the Contrapoints thing...But this? I'm so fucking tired of people arguing in bad faith and claiming their view is the only right one. That's the telltale signs of a zealot, not someone fighting for a better damn tomorrow.
Are you trans? Or are you a cis person screaming about how people criticizing Lindsey Ellis is the true issue? Because it sounds like you're just complaining about the uppity trans people is all.
 

Ketkat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,180
I don't really take issue with this one-off humorless joke. I don't see how she's normalizing anything here or spreading frustrating jokes and that comes from somebody who has had a long history of explaining why she hated helicopter and identify memes.

Like in context this was obviously trying to mock Gervais' poor humor and out of context it's such a mash nonsense that you have to be able to tell there is more to the story.

Joke was pretty boring and humorless either way though and could have benefited from a second draft but I could see myself making it in the heat of the moment.
How does this joke mock Ricky Gervais in any way? He's out there making attack helicopter jokes and "I identify as.." memes, and all this does is replace attack helicopter with his name. All it's really doing is taking the all too common transphobic joke that we push back against and having a cis woman replace one crazy ridiculous thing with another.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
9,167
Not really, no. How many of those that tried to do better have earned the acceptance? I saw someone on ERA just last week blast James Gunn for those shitty old tweets he said for years ago. In this age, there's no forgiveness, no time to consider. All is fury, anger. Hell, I used to be overjoyed the Alt-Right were tearing itself apart...Then I realized a portion of the "Left" were just as eager to do it as well.
Like I get the Contrapoints thing...But this? I'm so fucking tired of people arguing in bad faith and claiming their view is the only right one. That's the telltale signs of a zealot, not someone fighting for a better damn tomorrow.
Trying to do better?



Then a couple of transphobic jokes down the line and you’re getting upset because people choose to criticise her?

Stop clutching your pearls because a few people have expressed dissatisfaction with some personality.
 

srsly?

Member
Feb 24, 2018
3,483
What a trainwreck this woman's platform has become, lol.

I'm personally very glad I never even heard of her until about a year ago. (I've never seen any of her videos.)
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,106
Can people no longer take jokes at face value? Theres probably no deeper meaning to any of this, it's ok to let jokes be jokes, some humor is not for everyone and that's fine
Jokes like that hurt a community that has to deal with costant and never stop amount of hurtfull bullshit
fuck off of here with this jokes are only jokes bullshit
 

SoZetaSlow

Member
Sep 20, 2019
808
Natalie doesn't run her own twitter anymore after she closed it after ranting about feeling threatened by non-binary people and non-“passing” binary trans people. This was also where she called herself “the last of the old-school transsexuals”.
I remember her doing that then coming back to handling it herself, thats what led to the whole her saying it was an honor to have Buck Angel be in her video controversy, haven't checked back since her non apology that she locked behind the paywall of patreon so don't know whether her manager is back in control or not
 

GreatFenris

Member
Apr 6, 2019
275
Are you trans? Or are you a cis person screaming about how people criticizing Lindsey Ellis is the true issue? Because it sounds like you're just complaining about the uppity trans people is all.
No, I am not trans. Got enough friends who are to care about it though. But I'm also an asshole who has made msitakes in his past and worked hard to redeem myself for them. So I'm kind of big on giving people a chance to explain themselves.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,504
It seems odd to remove intent and character from the context of that joke. Its disingenuous to act like she isn't mocking Ricky.

The response to should be " I get that your are mocking Ricky and his ilk for the use of that "joke" , but to using their joke against them doesn't have the desired effect"
People aren't ignoring intent, they're saying that the outcome doesn't work as mockery of Ricky.

No, I am not trans. Got enough friends who are to care about it though. But I'm also an asshole who has made msitakes in his past and worked hard to redeem myself for them. So I'm kind of big on giving people a chance to explain themselves.
Did it occur to you that there are many people who simply comment about how disappointing it is that she made this joke, or that if you look at Twitter comments, it's fairly innocuous? Why are you cherry picking instead of looking at the majority of comments on the matter if not to misrepresent what's being said?
 

bad kitty

Member
Sep 7, 2018
362
Babylon
It’s a transphobic joke.

You’re also forgetting the part where she got bent out of shape defending Contrapoints from criticism and painted NB people out to be some rabid group that's never satisfied and isn’t worth apologising to.
So you're branding her a transphobe in retaliation for her being Natalie's pal basically, because of Natalie's views on non binary.
 

Farmboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
365
Ellis meant well, but was tone deaf. I’m sure she’s more educated now and wouldn’t call her transphobic even though the joke, inadvertently, was. I’d rather focus on the real enemies.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,621
Trans folk: "Hey Lindsay has said some pretty fucked up things lately that personally hurt me."

Some people in this thread: "WOW YOU'RE TRYING TO CANCEL HER NOW HUH?!?! CANCEL CULTURE AT IT AGAIN!!! THE LEFT EATING ITSELF!!!"

Some of y'all ain't that fucking slick as you think you are
 

Ketkat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,180
So you're branding her a transphobe in retaliation for her being Natalie's pal basically, because of Natalie's views on non binary.
No, that's not what Kyuuji said. Kyuuji is directly talking about Lindsay Ellis' response towards everything Contrapoints said and did and her attempts to paint the nonbinary and trans people upset with her and the rest of Left Youtube as "Gamergate 2.0"