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Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes

Amiablepercy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,812
California
I thought people on this board zealously worshiped at the alter of Lindsay Ellis and her video essays as if the end times were imminent?

Wait?!?! She is a human being who fucks up sometimes. No...

Sarcasm aside, I agree that she should apologize because she had so rigorously owned Gervais prior. If she meant it I wouldn't expect anything but she didn't mean it and kind of framed herself as hypocritical with her transphobic tweet capper. Will I dictate the nature or execution of her apology? No way, I just think she should acknowledge while helpful at first she went on to regressively make the fiasco worse.
 

Nymir

Member
Oct 27, 2017
71
It's not some irredeemable thing but it truly feels thoughtless and mean spirited for the sake of it. It could only cause hurt to people and she went ahead with it anyway.
 

A.By

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,999
Again, he’s saying that comedy shouldn’t pick on underdogs, he isn’t saying that the art of comedy is entirely to defend them.

saying that comedy is about jokes should be the most obviously factual thing ever. It’s not the same as saying that it’s cool to attack people or whatever you’re trying to infer
"Punch up, not down" has nothing to do with defending the underdogs, it's about going after people that have it better off than them.

Also, that's a really silly, reductive sentiment. It's like responding to someone exclaiming what effective cooking is and saying "no, cooking is making food edible." Yes, comedy is about jokes, but if we apply even mild nuance, it's about more than that, especially when targets of joke come into play.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,502
UK
Again, he’s saying that comedy shouldn’t pick on underdogs, he isn’t saying that the art of comedy is entirely to defend them.

saying that comedy is about jokes should be the most obviously factual thing ever. It’s not the same as saying that it’s cool to attack people or whatever you’re trying to infer
You're hung up on such a basic aspect of comedy that is almost to the point of adding a dictionary definition that comedy is about making someone laugh. It's known to everybody so including that would be pointless which is why the point and politics of effective comedy is why I bother to mention about punching up. Because it seems lost on some comedy-inclined people or right wingers.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,985
Brazil
Yes the "joke" is shitty and transphobic.

But i don't think it is healthy to close yourself from the creators of some of the best youtube has to offer because of this.
Her work, Contrapoints and others mentioned in OP's video are doing amazing stuff that at worst don't show any of those bias they have
they did amazing stuff for lots of other areas and you will "cancel" them because of one stupid things they said?
I absolutely think this is overblown because of the heat of the moment.They are doing more waaaaaaaaaaay good than bad for trans people and this is not a moment to loose allies, even if they are not perfect.

Like if Lindsay makes a video telling people that identifying as an helicopter is the same as being trans or if Contra makes a video saying nb people sux than I can understand...

Hbomberguy raised money for mermaids? Wat?
He did a super long stream trying to finish Donkey Kong 64 that raised money for a charity in the uk that helps trans children. The charity is named Mermaids.
 

Kilrogg

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
they did amazing stuff for lots of other areas and you will "cancel" them because of one stupid things they said?
Holy shit read the thread, people. Nobody is cancelling anyone over this. Nobody is denying the good they've done. Fair criticism and frustration aren't cancellation. This goes for this thread and the one about Contrapoints.

Why am I fully expecting someone to quote 1 or 2 bad takes in a 9-page thread to prove to me that "well, actually, it's not literally "nobody", people are trying to cancel her!"?
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,053
Yes the "joke" is shitty and transphobic.

But i don't think it is healthy to close yourself from the creators of some of the best youtube has to offer because of this.
Her work, Contrapoints and others mentioned in OP's video are doing amazing stuff that at worst don't show any of those bias they have
they did amazing stuff for lots of other areas and you will "cancel" them because of one stupid things they said?
I absolutely think this is overblown because of the heat of the moment.They are doing more waaaaaaaaaaay good than bad for trans people and this is not a moment to loose allies, even if they are not perfect.

Like if Lindsay makes a video telling people that identifying as an helicopter is the same as being trans or if Contra makes a video saying nb people sux than I can understand...



He did a super long stream trying to finish Donkey Kong 64 that raised money for a charity in the uk that helps trans children. The charity is named Mermaids.
mostly people here are not asking for people to stop watching them. They just want them to do better in the future. Just because they did a great videos don´t mean they can´t be critiscized when they fuck up
Also if people want to stop watching their videos because of this shit is 100% valid, if you don´t want to stop watching then keep watching
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,502
UK
Y'all really need to stop saying "cancelling" or "cancel culture" because it's a bad faith hyperbolic strawman argument that tries to starve off good faith criticism. Cancel culture is a myth for the most part. Don't give into right wing alarmism.

 
Oct 25, 2017
7,371
Fucking hell this is tiring, just going to quote a bit (just a bit, please read the rest) of Kyuuji's fantastic post from the Contrapoints thread.

Trans people aren't allowed to even discuss an issue on an unrelated forum without having people try to shut us down or police exactly how we're allowed to express our frustration. That's all people are doing here - posting on a forum. Yet you have you, and many before you, start coming in and talking about how that's harrassment, and invoking things like trans people being murdered.

You don't get to determine whether something is good faith or bad faith simply because one trans person is being polite and the other more curt in their frustrations. People are allowed to post in frustration and it should come as no surprise that when people feel that same irritation over time, that will manifest in some blunt responses. Again though, we're discussing something on a forum. We're not on Twitter sending vile abuse at her daily, we're discussing it within our community. If you're decrying harrassment then decry harrassment, don't use "cancel culture" to muddy the water between the two.

Who in this thread is trying to cancel someone, instead of expressing what they will do based on the frustration they feel? What does it even mean to cancel someone? People aren't obligated to keep watching her content, or keep paying her money to produce it.
 

Bradbury

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,053
Fucking hell this is tiring, just going to quote a bit (just a bit, please read the rest) of Kyuuji's fantastic post from the Contrapoints thread.


Im going to just share this every time someone comes with the "you´re as bad as alt-right" bullshit take every other page
 

NoName999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,005
Ever since Obama idiotically called out nonexistent cancel culture, we have an influx of so called "progressive" clowns showing their true colors.

Can't you guys just admit that you don't care about minority issues and spare us the trouble?
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,701
This is indeed a shame. Her videos are often well thought out with some great points. The fact that it seems she's choosing to ignore it rather than address makes it worse.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,154
Southern California
Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder how many people dismissing a transphobic joke as somehow not being a transphobic joke are cis and once again telling trans people we're wrong about trans issues.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
She is clearly a trans supporter and it was just a poorly thought-out joke that she rightfully deleted. Leave it to Era to judge her to oblivion and act like fucking saints, as usual.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,465
This feels like a huge own goal for no reason aside from spite and apparently a bubbling anger that lasted over days. Feels like she posted this just for the satisfaction of trying to rip into this guy and ignored the fact that she was basically striking trans people in her fury.

This and no response to it after the fact is really childish of her.

Some people really need a class in avoiding twitter fingers.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
This is indeed a shame. Her videos are often well thought out with some great points. The fact that it seems she's choosing to ignore it rather than address makes it worse.
Her deleting the tweet shows that she knew it was a bad joke. She’s clearly a trans supporter. Literally all that needs to be said about this.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
9,028
It is lovely seeing cis guys telling trans folks who are they allies or not, and when they should take jokes against them or not, and accusing them to "cancelling" (fuck this word already) just because they raise a concern. Lovely.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,502
UK
Her deleting the tweet shows that she knew it was a bad joke. She’s clearly a trans supporter. Literally all that needs to be said about this.
Being a trans supporter (which I mentioned in the OP) doesn't shield you from making transphobic jokes and makes it all the more disappointing because she should be better than this.

Also, she didn't delete the second transphobic joke.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,626
Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder how many people dismissing a transphobic joke as somehow not being a transphobic joke are cis and once again telling trans people we're wrong about trans issues.
It is lovely seeing cis guys telling trans folks who are they allies or not, and when they should take jokes against them or not, and accusing them to "cancelling" (fuck this word already) just because they raise a concern. Lovely.
It's unfortunately depressingly common. And it's been happening a lot more recently (or at least it's been a lot more blatant). I created a thread about this trend which hopefully gets more awareness about it.

 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
And I guess leave it to you to completely disregard any of the grievances trans people have expressed in this and the Contrapoints thread.
Because it was a poorly thought-out “joke.” She clearly only meant to make fun of Gervais, and no one else. She clearly realized it was a bad joke and deleted it. It’s not like she’s secretly anti-trans.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,626
Because it was a poorly thought-out “joke.” She clearly only meant to make fun of Gervais, and no one else. She clearly realized it was a bad joke and deleted it. It’s not like she’s secretly anti-trans.
NO ONE IS SAYING THIS! No one! Only people who are talking about "canceling" are people like you looking to dismiss trans folk's opinions on trans related issues! One can criticize someone for a poor joke, even while recognizing that it wasn't intentional, because intent does not excuse!
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
Being a trans supporter (which I mentioned in the OP) doesn't shield you from making transphobic jokes and makes it all the more disappointing because she should be better than this.

Also, she didn't delete the second transphobic joke.
I would say she’s attempting to make fun of the “how dare you assume my gender” and “i identify as ____” jokes themselves. Is it poorly thought-out? Yes.

But does it deserve anything more than a “oh come on Lindsay, don’t be an idiot”? IMO, no. Of course, people have a right to react to this however they want, but people getting hysterical over this when she clearly doesn’t have bad intentions are ridiculous IMO.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,011
She is clearly a trans supporter and it was just a poorly thought-out joke that she rightfully deleted. Leave it to Era to judge her to oblivion and act like fucking saints, as usual.
Judging her into oblivion is trans people talking about a transphobic joke she made following harsh comments toward the non-binary community?

But does it deserve anything more than a “oh come on Lindsay, don’t be an idiot”? IMO, no. Of course, people have a right to react to this however they want, but people getting hysterical over this when she clearly doesn’t have bad intentions are ridiculous IMO.
Who is being hysterical?
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
NO ONE IS SAYING THIS! No one! Only people who are talking about "canceling" are people like you looking to dismiss trans folk's opinions on trans related issues! One can criticize someone for a poor joke, even while recognizing that it wasn't intentional, because intent does not excuse!
Name one time I mentioned canceling.
 

Psychotron

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,701
Her deleting the tweet shows that she knew it was a bad joke. She’s clearly a trans supporter. Literally all that needs to be said about this.
Deleting a tweet after making joke in poor taste is not acknowledging you made a mistake. Addressing it does. If it were someone that wasn't liked on Era, that action would be considered running from the backlash, not acknowledging a mistake. Now, I am in no way saying she should be attacked or that I'm never going to watch her content again, I'm simply saying it's disappointing.
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
3,276
Deleting a tweet after making joke in poor taste is not acknowledging you made a mistake. Addressing it does. If it were someone that wasn't liked on Era, that action would be considered running from the backlash, not acknowledging a mistake. Now, I am in no way saying she should be attacked or that I'm never going to watch her content again, I'm simply saying it's disappointing.
i'm holding out hope that she's currently working on an apology
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
Judging her into oblivion is trans people talking about a transphobic joke she made following harsh comments toward the non-binary community?
I do believe that her “jokes” are unintentionally harmful. That’s why the first one was deleted. As for the second one, I expect that to be deleted in time, though I’m not sure how long that’s been up. I will say that if she keeps that one up, that she deserves some criticism for valuing her ego over valuing respecting the trans community and avoiding harming them further
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
463
Being a trans supporter (which I mentioned in the OP) doesn't shield you from making transphobic jokes and makes it all the more disappointing because she should be better than this.

Also, she didn't delete the second transphobic joke.
Actually looking at the tweet she's responding to, I think we're misreading the context.



I think the context of her tweet is more "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais namesearches himself", but just stops at Ricky Gervais since the joke is that he clearly is namesearching himself and the tweet is meant to catch him doing that. I don't think this is in relation to the "I identify as Ricky Gervais tweet" and doesn't even really fit the format of the typical shitty "how dare you assume my pronouns" non-jokes.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,371
I expect that to be deleted in time, though I’m not sure how long that’s been up. I will say that if she keeps that one up, that she deserves some criticism for valuing her ego over valuing respecting the trans community and avoiding harming them further
It's been almost two days, she seemingly has already moved on from those tweets. By this point the only way the second one it's going to be deleted is by her auto-deletion thing that she says she uses for older tweets.
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,205
Name who's being hysterical and judging her into oblivion?
Moreover, why do you think you have the authority to determine how trans people express their frustration in forum threads?
I don’t have authority nor do I believe that I do. Unless I skimmed a little too fast, the OP doesn’t mention the second undeleted tweet. That, IMO, warrants criticism. Beforehand, I thought it was just a tweet that’s been deleted and I thought people were being ridiculous and not having faith in her stance.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,011
I do believe that her “jokes” are unintentionally harmful. That’s why the first one was deleted. As for the second one, I expect that to be deleted in time, though I’m not sure how long that’s been up. I will say that if she keeps that one up, that she deserves some criticism for valuing her ego over valuing respecting the trans community and avoiding further harm
If you acknowledge they are harmful why are you in here shouting down trans people and trying to determine what is and isn't an acceptable amount of frustration to exhibit?

Discussing something in a forum thread isn't judging someone into oblivion. People are justified in their frustration as this comes off the back of a growing sentiment over the past few months. More specifically it also comes a week after Linday had this to say regarding the non-binary community:
There is no hysteria. Patience is growing thin in this area, people are discussing their frustrations. I'd recommend going to Twitter and bemoaning the people actually throwing abuse at her directly instead of running in to dismiss a thread of trans people discussing something within their own community.
 

John Dunbar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,430
i'm holding out hope that she's currently working on an apology
is there actually any reason to think she feels she might have to comment on it, beyond deleting the tweet? i don't think there is any "official" reddit, and comments on her latest tweets don't seem to mention this, so the only place i have seen this blow up is here on resetera. i doubt she cares about this place.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,502
UK
is there actually any reason to think she feels she might have to comment on it, beyond deleting the tweet? i don't think there is any "official" reddit, and comments on her latest tweets don't seem to mention this, so the only place i have seen this blow up is here on resetera. i doubt she cares about this place.
Is there actually any reason she should address to her trans audience on Twitter who pointed out how her jokes are bad and damaging, and that she'll do better? Yeah.
 

FeistyBoots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,154
Southern California
Her joke/tweet is not transphobic. She is making fun of the people making the transphobic jokes, notably that it is the SAME joke every single time. It would be transphobic if the target of the jokes were trans people. That is not who she is making fun of here.



You're not wrong about this, but if you are familiar with Lindsay's commentary on these sorts of issues, I would argue it's a massive reach to suggest she's ignorant to LGBTQ and minority issues.
The joke is literally transphobic, despite her intent.
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,606
Canadia
Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder how many people dismissing a transphobic joke as somehow not being a transphobic joke are cis and once again telling trans people we're wrong about trans issues.
As a cis guy trying to be an ally, I really appreciate the trans voices in this thread. It's rare that someone drops a really offensive faux pas that causes me to think "there but for the grace of Glob go I", but I could absolutely see myself trying to satirize terrible phobe humour as a way to attack a phobe comic the way Ellis did, not thinking for a second that it might cause pain to people.

I feel like Ellis is stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. If she apologises, she acknowledges the fact that a joke she can't imagine coming off as transphobic clearly does to some people, and the Gervaises of the world get to mock her for failing to successfully mock them. If she doesn't, she risks looking like she doesn't care. Given the context (she was trying to attack a gleefully transphobic comedian), I think her desire is to let people judge her based on the joke rather than on an apology; and therefore continue to present a united progressive front to people like Gervais.
 

Kilrogg

Resettlement Advisor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
Name one time I mentioned canceling.
Reread their post. They're not saying you're literally using the word "cancel". They're saying that people who use this word unironically generally post the type of toxic hyperbolic shit you've been saying. To quote you specifically, this:

Leave it to Era to judge her to oblivion and act like fucking saints, as usual
is incredibly toxic to the discourse and to this community. "Judging her to oblivion" is an incredibly hyperbolic way of viewing the reaction, and only serves to create conflict where there is little. Also, it's pretty much synonymous to saying "cancelling her".
 

John Dunbar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,430
Is there actually any reason she should address to her trans audience on Twitter who pointed out how her jokes are bad and damaging, and that she'll do better? Yeah.
i'm not saying there isn't a reason to address it, i'm simply wondering is there any visible demand for her to do so beyond deleting her tweet. i can't find any.

i don't consider ellis to be some kind of saint who will volunteer an apology that might harm her if she can just ignore the whole thing.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,601
And raising concerns vs hysterics.

The non caring trolls on this forum need to be purged when they pretend that they don't know the difference. It bogs down the discussion.
That goes without saying, imo. It's inherent to the point.

If you're considering intent vs impact, hysterics is negative impact.

Being pedantic here though, I agree with you.