other than you, who in this thread is asking for discussion on lindsay ellis to be banned? you're literally fabricating an outrage that doesn't even exist.
other than you, who in this thread is asking for discussion on lindsay ellis to be banned? you're literally fabricating an outrage that doesn't even exist.
No, I'm saying it's a transphobic joke.So you're branding her a transphobe in retaliation for her being Natalie's pal basically, because of Natalie's views on non binary.
If it looks like a transphobic joke, reads like one and is received like one then it's a transphobic joke.
The person writing it doesn't have to be transphobic for that to be the case. They are, however, someone that has downplayed non-binary concerns and painted the community out to be some rabid entity.
This "I'm an ally honest, but please don't criticize my favourite personality tho" nonsense needs to go in the bin. For both the forum and Lindsay.
Trans folk: "Hey Lindsay has said some pretty fucked up things lately that personally hurt me."
Some people in this thread: "WOW YOU'RE TRYING TO CANCEL HER NOW HUH?!?! CANCEL CULTURE AT IT AGAIN!!! THE LEFT EATING ITSELF!!!"
Some of y'all ain't that fucking slick as you think you are
A shame to see Lindsay get cancelled, she did a lot of great work over the years and was a personality I enjoyed watching.
Yes it does. That's basically the state of discussion on this forum and at large.
other than you, who in this thread is asking for discussion on lindsay ellis to be banned? you're literally fabricating an outrage that doesn't even exist.
Right, but the problem is we do have the context:Taking the joke at face value is precisely the problem. There's no content to the joke beyond "trans people identify as weird things hur hur hur" so taking the joke at face value just exposes how hurtful and dumb the joke is in the first place.
It's a transphobic joke.
You're also forgetting the part where she got bent out of shape defending Contrapoints from criticism and painted NB people out to be some rabid group that's never satisfied and isn't worth apologising to.
Almost every person in this thread, including the most vocal trans voices, aren't asking for Lindsay to be set on fire or erased from the internet. They're asking for accountability and understanding of a mistake.
Right, but the problem is we do have the context:
-Gervais is getting called out for the format being lazy.
-He responds to Ellis using his wealth as justification that his humor is funny.
-She responds back using his format, which again she has called out already, essentially meaning she wishes she could get rich off of lazy joke writing.
You don't have to find it funny and no one is saying you can't take offense at either what she said or how she said it, but to incredulously claim you have no idea what she was going for is ridiculous. It is pretty obvious what she was trying to go for, whether or not is successful is a different story.
Giving you the context to why people are expressing the sentiment they are, when you're largely hand-waving it, isn't moving the goalposts.I'm talking about the joke, not other points which I have not read up on. Stop moving goalposts.
I mean, not this particular thing, but in general, that people that do good can also slip, and we need to accept that (not saying slipping as in praising Hitler or so).
I'm talking about the joke, not other points which I have not read up on. Stop moving goalposts.
Also opinion is not fact. You are welcome to feel like her joke is transphobic. I disagree. Intent actually matters, the butt of the joke is Ricky Gervais and how he actually sounds.
And any community on twitter really is never satisfied, trans,cis or otherwise as twitter/online is just an outrage machine. This is being proven in this thread, right now.
ThE LeFt EaTs ItSeLF!!!! So MUch FOr LefT UniTy!!!!
Intent actually matters, the butt of the joke is Ricky Gervais and how he actually sounds.
Intent ain't magic. Most of the people here probably like the vast majority of Lindsay's content especially since she became independent from Channel Awesome...but she's got a history of making jokes like this, and people are tired of it.
There's nothing to expand on really, I see it for what it is. To me it's pretty clear who it's meant for and why. She's getting a lot of flak because of Natalie I imagine.
Not really, no. How many of those that tried to do better have earned the acceptance? I saw someone on ERA just last week blast James Gunn for those shitty old tweets he said for years ago. In this age, there's no forgiveness, no time to consider. All is fury, anger. Hell, I used to be overjoyed the Alt-Right were tearing itself apart...Then I realized a portion of the "Left" were just as eager to do it as well.
Like I get the Contrapoints thing...But this? I'm so fucking tired of people arguing in bad faith and claiming their view is the only right one. That's the telltale signs of a zealot, not someone fighting for a better damn tomorrow.
THIS.Almost every person in this thread, including the most vocal trans voices, aren't asking for Lindsay to be set on fire or erased from the internet. They're asking for accountability and understanding of a mistake.
Right, but the problem is we do have the context:
-Gervais is getting called out for the format being lazy.
-He responds to Ellis using his wealth as justification that his humor is funny.
-She responds back using his format, which again she has called out already, essentially meaning she wishes she could get rich off of lazy joke writing.
You don't have to find it funny and no one is saying you can't take offense at either what she said or how she said it, but to incredulously claim you have no idea what she was going for is ridiculous. It is pretty obvious what she was trying to go for, whether or not is successful is a different story.
At the same time this can both be true and people can criticize Lindsay. People, for the most part, know that Lindsay is just a human being, but part of her fortune is having her voice carry farther than others, and that position denotes a distinct responsibility that she has accepted however wittingly or unwittingly. The issue isn't even that she has done this imo it's more whether her ego can tolerate the well intentioned criticism from the people who were presumably hurt by this.
She's getting flak because of her own words and actions, and not because of Contrapoints and the things that she's done. Linday Ellis is the one who compared trans and non-binary people who were upset with platforming a transmedicalist as well as continually throwing nonbinary people under the bus to Gamergate 2.0. She is the one who made these jokes that are largely the equivalent of attack helicopter jokes, and she chose to do all of this. Don't pretend that these are bad faith attacks through some guilty by association when we're actually just bothered by the things that she personally has done
Intent matters, but it also doesn't absolve you from fuck ups.Yeah, intent matters. Lindsay made a whole video about this. Lindsey missed the mark with the joke, but it's clear what her intent was. It's clear what she believes in.
Yeah, intent matters. Lindsay made a whole video about this. Lindsey missed the mark with the joke, but it's clear what her intent was. It's clear what she believes in.
Yes, he believes you're only trans if a doctor tells you you are. Thus anyone outside of that isn't actually trans.
Also this:
Someone doesn't have to be alt-right in order to have transphobic views, and Buck Angel's views are gatekeeping bigotry that are used to deny rights and basic access to healthcare for both nonbinary people and people who don't experience dysphoria the same way that he did. There are a ton of people on the left that have issues with trans people and if you're only looking at this from an angle of left vs right, then you're missing the bigger picture.
He deserves criticism and if we don't criticize him then we're being incredibly poor allies to the people that are hurt by this rhetoric.
I'm talking about the joke, not other points which I have not read up on. Stop moving goalposts.
Also opinion is not fact. You are welcome to feel like her joke is transphobic. I disagree. Intent actually matters, the butt of the joke is Ricky Gervais and how he actually sounds.
And any community on twitter really is never satisfied, trans,cis or otherwise as twitter/online is just an outrage machine. This is being proven in this thread, right now.
You just proved my point. Whether her beliefs or Natalie's, you're using this tweet as a thin argument that she's being transphobic, when the problem lies elsewhere, respectively in a different discussion altogether.
You just proved my point. Whether her beliefs or Natalie's, you're using this tweet as a thin argument that she's being transphobic, when the problem lies elsewhere, respectively in a different discussion altogether.
No one is 'canceling' Lindsay. People just want her to apologize for making the transphobic jokes. It's not hard to understand.A shame to see Lindsay get cancelled, she did a lot of great work over the years and was a personality I enjoyed watching.
seriously!It's funny how as soon as someone from the left gets even the tiniest amount of criticism some of y'all turn into Republicans with the whole "Shut up and get in line!" Bullshit.
The jokes on their own are transphobic, yes. I've been very clear about that the whole thread
yikesYou know, there's this saying about the one who can't see the forest from the trees..
I'm out.
I don't think it's cool to downplay concerns among trans people. Nobody *wants* to feel hurt, if there's a reason someone feels that way it has to be coming from somewhere.This is ridiculous and also kind of a stupid thing to get mad about but then again I'm not trans.
You know, there's this saying about the one who can't see the forest from the trees..
I'm out.
No, because I consider most of the reactions either weird or some bordering on trollish. I can't imagine the shit trans people have to endure, because I'm a white guy, but I genuinely can't imagine Ellis being a transphobe. The "joke" wasn't good, and she should absolutely regret using it.Did it occur to you that there are many people who simply comment about how disappointing it is that she made this joke, or that if you look at Twitter comments, it's fairly innocuous? Why are you cherry picking instead of looking at the majority of comments on the matter if not to misrepresent what's being said?
No, because I consider most of the reactions either weird or some bordering on trollish. I can't imagine the shit trans people have to endure, because I'm a white guy, but I genuinely can't imagine Ellis being a transphobe. The "joke" wasn't good, and she should absolutely regret using it.
But at the same time, I don't think she's wrong in the earlier quote about what's the point of saying your sorry when people won't listen?
What could she say to make you (using you as an example) go "Yeah, good. You've learned from your mistake."
You are saying as if she has commented on this in any way besides deleting one of the tweets.No, because I consider most of the reactions either weird or some bordering on trollish. I can't imagine the shit trans people have to endure, because I'm a white guy, but I genuinely can't imagine Ellis being a transphobe. The "joke" wasn't good, and she should absolutely regret using it.
But at the same time, I don't think she's wrong in the earlier quote about what's the point of saying your sorry when people won't listen?
What could she say to make you (using you as an example) go "Yeah, good. You've learned from your mistake."