Ah ok that makes more sense.
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Not sure how anybody can keep up with all this youtuber and twitter drama or why anyone would want to.
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Lindsay Ellis' transphobic jokes
- Thread starter Messofanego
- Start date
Ah ok that makes more sense.
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Not sure how anybody can keep up with all this youtuber and twitter drama or why anyone would want to.
Yeah. I just checked her twitter and it seems like she's already moved on. That's a damn shame.
I thought people on this board zealously worshiped at the alter of Lindsay Ellis and her video essays as if the end times were imminent?
Wait?!?! She is a human being who fucks up sometimes. No...
Sarcasm aside, I agree that she should apologize because she had so rigorously owned Gervais prior. If she meant it I wouldn't expect anything but she didn't mean it and kind of framed herself as hypocritical with her transphobic tweet capper. Will I dictate the nature or execution of her apology? No way, I just think she should acknowledge while helpful at first she went on to regressively make the fiasco worse.
Wait?!?! She is a human being who fucks up sometimes. No...
Sarcasm aside, I agree that she should apologize because she had so rigorously owned Gervais prior. If she meant it I wouldn't expect anything but she didn't mean it and kind of framed herself as hypocritical with her transphobic tweet capper. Will I dictate the nature or execution of her apology? No way, I just think she should acknowledge while helpful at first she went on to regressively make the fiasco worse.
"Punch up, not down" has nothing to do with defending the underdogs, it's about going after people that have it better off than them.
Also, that's a really silly, reductive sentiment. It's like responding to someone exclaiming what effective cooking is and saying "no, cooking is making food edible." Yes, comedy is about jokes, but if we apply even mild nuance, it's about more than that, especially when targets of joke come into play.
OP
OP
You're hung up on such a basic aspect of comedy that is almost to the point of adding a dictionary definition that comedy is about making someone laugh. It's known to everybody so including that would be pointless which is why the point and politics of effective comedy is why I bother to mention about punching up. Because it seems lost on some comedy-inclined people or right wingers.
Yes the "joke" is shitty and transphobic.
But i don't think it is healthy to close yourself from the creators of some of the best youtube has to offer because of this.
Her work, Contrapoints and others mentioned in OP's video are doing amazing stuff that at worst don't show any of those bias they have
they did amazing stuff for lots of other areas and you will "cancel" them because of one stupid things they said?
I absolutely think this is overblown because of the heat of the moment.They are doing more waaaaaaaaaaay good than bad for trans people and this is not a moment to loose allies, even if they are not perfect.
Like if Lindsay makes a video telling people that identifying as an helicopter is the same as being trans or if Contra makes a video saying nb people sux than I can understand...
He did a super long stream trying to finish Donkey Kong 64 that raised money for a charity in the uk that helps trans children. The charity is named Mermaids.
But i don't think it is healthy to close yourself from the creators of some of the best youtube has to offer because of this.
Her work, Contrapoints and others mentioned in OP's video are doing amazing stuff that at worst don't show any of those bias they have
they did amazing stuff for lots of other areas and you will "cancel" them because of one stupid things they said?
I absolutely think this is overblown because of the heat of the moment.They are doing more waaaaaaaaaaay good than bad for trans people and this is not a moment to loose allies, even if they are not perfect.
Like if Lindsay makes a video telling people that identifying as an helicopter is the same as being trans or if Contra makes a video saying nb people sux than I can understand...
He did a super long stream trying to finish Donkey Kong 64 that raised money for a charity in the uk that helps trans children. The charity is named Mermaids.
Holy shit read the thread, people. Nobody is cancelling anyone over this. Nobody is denying the good they've done. Fair criticism and frustration aren't cancellation. This goes for this thread and the one about Contrapoints.
Why am I fully expecting someone to quote 1 or 2 bad takes in a 9-page thread to prove to me that "well, actually, it's not literally "nobody", people are trying to cancel her!"?
mostly people here are not asking for people to stop watching them. They just want them to do better in the future. Just because they did a great videos don´t mean they can´t be critiscized when they fuck up
Also if people want to stop watching their videos because of this shit is 100% valid, if you don´t want to stop watching then keep watching
OP
OP
Y'all really need to stop saying "cancelling" or "cancel culture" because it's a bad faith hyperbolic strawman argument that tries to starve off good faith criticism. Cancel culture is a myth for the most part. Don't give into right wing alarmism.
Fucking hell this is tiring, just going to quote a bit (just a bit, please read the rest) of Kyuuji's fantastic post from the Contrapoints thread.
Im going to just share this every time someone comes with the "you´re as bad as alt-right" bullshit take every other page
This is indeed a shame. Her videos are often well thought out with some great points. The fact that it seems she's choosing to ignore it rather than address makes it worse.
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It could be worse than ignoring, she could triple down lol!
Haven't read the whole thread, but I wonder how many people dismissing a transphobic joke as somehow not being a transphobic joke are cis and once again telling trans people we're wrong about trans issues.
She is clearly a trans supporter and it was just a poorly thought-out joke that she rightfully deleted. Leave it to Era to judge her to oblivion and act like fucking saints, as usual.
This feels like a huge own goal for no reason aside from spite and apparently a bubbling anger that lasted over days. Feels like she posted this just for the satisfaction of trying to rip into this guy and ignored the fact that she was basically striking trans people in her fury.
This and no response to it after the fact is really childish of her.
Some people really need a class in avoiding twitter fingers.
This and no response to it after the fact is really childish of her.
Some people really need a class in avoiding twitter fingers.
Her deleting the tweet shows that she knew it was a bad joke. She's clearly a trans supporter. Literally all that needs to be said about this.
And I guess leave it to you to completely disregard any of the grievances trans people have expressed in this and the Contrapoints thread.
OP
OP
Being a trans supporter (which I mentioned in the OP) doesn't shield you from making transphobic jokes and makes it all the more disappointing because she should be better than this.
Also, she didn't delete the second transphobic joke.
It's unfortunately depressingly common. And it's been happening a lot more recently (or at least it's been a lot more blatant). I created a thread about this trend which hopefully gets more awareness about it.
Because it was a poorly thought-out "joke." She clearly only meant to make fun of Gervais, and no one else. She clearly realized it was a bad joke and deleted it. It's not like she's secretly anti-trans.
NO ONE IS SAYING THIS! No one! Only people who are talking about "canceling" are people like you looking to dismiss trans folk's opinions on trans related issues! One can criticize someone for a poor joke, even while recognizing that it wasn't intentional, because intent does not excuse!
I would say she's attempting to make fun of the "how dare you assume my gender" and "i identify as ____" jokes themselves. Is it poorly thought-out? Yes.
But does it deserve anything more than a "oh come on Lindsay, don't be an idiot"? IMO, no. Of course, people have a right to react to this however they want, but people getting hysterical over this when she clearly doesn't have bad intentions are ridiculous IMO.
Judging her into oblivion is trans people talking about a transphobic joke she made following harsh comments toward the non-binary community?
Who is being hysterical?
Deleting a tweet after making joke in poor taste is not acknowledging you made a mistake. Addressing it does. If it were someone that wasn't liked on Era, that action would be considered running from the backlash, not acknowledging a mistake. Now, I am in no way saying she should be attacked or that I'm never going to watch her content again, I'm simply saying it's disappointing.
You know exactly what I'm talking about and trying to hide behind "well technically I didn't say cancelling" is garbage. There are trans people explaining why they are disappointing. Listen to them rather than blowing off their disappointment as "judgment"
Name who's being hysterical and judging her into oblivion?
Moreover, why do you think you have the authority to determine how trans people express their frustration in forum threads?
i'm holding out hope that she's currently working on an apology
I do believe that her "jokes" are unintentionally harmful. That's why the first one was deleted. As for the second one, I expect that to be deleted in time, though I'm not sure how long that's been up. I will say that if she keeps that one up, that she deserves some criticism for valuing her ego over valuing respecting the trans community and avoiding harming them further
Actually looking at the tweet she's responding to, I think we're misreading the context.
I think the context of her tweet is more "How dare you assume Ricky Gervais namesearches himself", but just stops at Ricky Gervais since the joke is that he clearly is namesearching himself and the tweet is meant to catch him doing that. I don't think this is in relation to the "I identify as Ricky Gervais tweet" and doesn't even really fit the format of the typical shitty "how dare you assume my pronouns" non-jokes.
It's been almost two days, she seemingly has already moved on from those tweets. By this point the only way the second one it's going to be deleted is by her auto-deletion thing that she says she uses for older tweets.
I don't have authority nor do I believe that I do. Unless I skimmed a little too fast, the OP doesn't mention the second undeleted tweet. That, IMO, warrants criticism. Beforehand, I thought it was just a tweet that's been deleted and I thought people were being ridiculous and not having faith in her stance.
If you acknowledge they are harmful why are you in here shouting down trans people and trying to determine what is and isn't an acceptable amount of frustration to exhibit?
Discussing something in a forum thread isn't judging someone into oblivion. People are justified in their frustration as this comes off the back of a growing sentiment over the past few months. More specifically it also comes a week after Linday had this to say regarding the non-binary community:
There is no hysteria. Patience is growing thin in this area, people are discussing their frustrations. I'd recommend going to Twitter and bemoaning the people actually throwing abuse at her directly instead of running in to dismiss a thread of trans people discussing something within their own community.
is there actually any reason to think she feels she might have to comment on it, beyond deleting the tweet? i don't think there is any "official" reddit, and comments on her latest tweets don't seem to mention this, so the only place i have seen this blow up is here on resetera. i doubt she cares about this place.
OP
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Is there actually any reason she should address to her trans audience on Twitter who pointed out how her jokes are bad and damaging, and that she'll do better? Yeah.
As a cis guy trying to be an ally, I really appreciate the trans voices in this thread. It's rare that someone drops a really offensive faux pas that causes me to think "there but for the grace of Glob go I", but I could absolutely see myself trying to satirize terrible phobe humour as a way to attack a phobe comic the way Ellis did, not thinking for a second that it might cause pain to people.
I feel like Ellis is stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. If she apologises, she acknowledges the fact that a joke she can't imagine coming off as transphobic clearly does to some people, and the Gervaises of the world get to mock her for failing to successfully mock them. If she doesn't, she risks looking like she doesn't care. Given the context (she was trying to attack a gleefully transphobic comedian), I think her desire is to let people judge her based on the joke rather than on an apology; and therefore continue to present a united progressive front to people like Gervais.
And raising concerns vs hysterics.
The non caring trolls on this forum need to be purged when they pretend that they don't know the difference. It bogs down the discussion.
Reread their post. They're not saying you're literally using the word "cancel". They're saying that people who use this word unironically generally post the type of toxic hyperbolic shit you've been saying. To quote you specifically, this:
is incredibly toxic to the discourse and to this community. "Judging her to oblivion" is an incredibly hyperbolic way of viewing the reaction, and only serves to create conflict where there is little. Also, it's pretty much synonymous to saying "cancelling her".
i'm not saying there isn't a reason to address it, i'm simply wondering is there any visible demand for her to do so beyond deleting her tweet. i can't find any.
i don't consider ellis to be some kind of saint who will volunteer an apology that might harm her if she can just ignore the whole thing.
That goes without saying, imo. It's inherent to the point.
If you're considering intent vs impact, hysterics is negative impact.
Being pedantic here though, I agree with you.