Yeah, I'm bummed. I wish she would offer some apology, or even just a reaffirmation of how these jokes hurt the community.
Yeah, I'm bummed. I wish she would offer some apology, or even just a reaffirmation of how these jokes hurt the community.
Oh?
wow, you're full of yourself aren't you.
If you're adressing me keep at least a shred of politeness and a decent tone. Otherwise talk to your pals or whomever else you desire like that darling. Aight?
And don't @ me again or consider yourself muted. Take care now.
Oh?
wow, you're full of yourself aren't you.
If you're adressing me keep at least a shred of politeness and a decent tone. Otherwise talk to your pals or whomever else you desire like that darling. Aight?
And don't @ me again or consider yourself muted. Take care now.
I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don't pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.Interesting how someone would talk about someone being full of themselves when having these sorts of demands.
I think there's an additional step there where they move on and don't repeat the mistake. The actions following one account for part of the consideration as well. So you hope that people learn and move on. That hope isn't a concept lost on people here either, considering most supported Contrapoints through all of the mishaps prior to recent events.Of course.. the hope is that she learns and just says. Didn't work, sorry. Move on.
I mean it's throwing their one joke back in the face of the people who use it. Whether or not she has the 'right' to do so (not being trans herself) is a matter I can't really speak on, but I think you have to ignore everything about who she is to think the joke itself is problematic in this context.
I can see how it would look that way to people who don't watch her stuff/follow her on twitter, so fair point in that regard, but for anyone familiar with her I think it's clear she's elucidating how absurdly stupid those jokes are when used genuinely.Typically, when you throw a joke back at someone while making it, you offer commentary on the joke to clarify why you're throwing the joke back.
Simply replicating the content of a problematic joke is problematic itself because regardless of the context of the repeated joke, the content is still inherently hurtful and damaging. Lindsay could've just added an extra line to the tweet presenting commentary on the original problematic humor and it would have gone over significantly better, but she didn't. As such, she is perpetuating the harmful stereotyping that the original joke was espousing in the first place because she literally just made the same joke again.
There is a way to de-power a harmful joke, and Lindsay did not do that.
I can see how it would look that way to people who don't watch her stuff/follow her on twitter, so fair point in that regard, but for anyone familiar with her I think it's clear she's elucidating how absurdly stupid those jokes are when used genuinely.
I was just doing that exact mental exercise. Lindsay is bi, right? And it wouldn't be inappropriate or unexpected for her to say "I identify as a cis bisexual woman". The n-word is for black people to use only, obviously, but does "I identify as blah blah" jokes mock specifically trans people, or anyone who acknowledges and respects the fact that people can identify as something other than what they're born as? The former more than the latter, sure, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as a white person using the n-word.Right, it's likely she did not intend to hurt trans people's feelings with the joke, but intent is only part of the equation.
Let me put it another way: if a white person makes fun of a racist who uses the n-word a lot by cartoonishly using the n-word to "illustrate how stupid" the racist is, is it still problematic? Yes. Because the first white person is still a white person using the n-word.
This is not a good post.I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don't pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.
I was just doing that exact mental exercise. Lindsay is bi, right? And it wouldn't be inappropriate or unexpected for her to say "I identify as a cis bisexual woman". The n-word is for black people to use only, obviously, but does "I identify as blah blah" jokes mock specifically trans people, or anyone who acknowledges and respects the fact that people can identify as something other than what they're born as? The former more than the latter, sure, but I don't think it's quite as clear cut as a white person using the n-word.
This is a good explanationKeep in mind that "Attack helicopter" jokes are definitely intended to mock trans people specifically. Transphobes took a real statement - "I identify as female" or "I identify as genderfluid" and so on - and twisted it into something comical and derisive that negates the experiences of real people who experience gender dysphoria.
Lindsay then took that joke and used it the exact same way transphobes do. That's why it's hurtful. Even if she didn't mean it to be, it's still perpetuating the meme that people who identify as something other than the sex or gender they were assigned at birth are being silly.
Again, fair point. I appreciate you discussing this with me btw.Keep in mind that "Attack helicopter" jokes are definitely intended to mock trans people specifically. Transphobes took a real statement - "I identify as female" or "I identify as genderfluid" and so on - and twisted it into something comical and derisive that negates the experiences of real people who experience gender dysphoria.
Lindsay then took that joke and used it the exact same way transphobes do. That's why it's hurtful. Even if she didn't mean it to be, it's still perpetuating the meme that people who identify as something other than the sex or gender they were assigned at birth are being silly.
Again, fair point. I appreciate you discussing this with me btw.
Out of curiosity, if Natalie Wynn made this joke, it would be fine, right? It's interesting to me this sense of ownership over certain harmful jokes within the LGBTQI+ Community versus 'racist' or racially sensitive jokes within a particular minority. A Trans person would be frowned upon for making bisexual 'jokes', I assume?
Yeah, the way I see it is that identity is very personal and serious and 1000% inappropriate as a subject for jokes. I consider following "I identify as" with anything other than your actual identity to be hurtful in the context of how serious identity is and also in the context of the history of bigoted "attack helicopter" jokes.Note: A trans person can be bisexual just like a cis person can.
The general rule of thumb is it's not really wise to make jokes about marginalized groups unless you're part of the group in question, and even then, it's still possible to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and negative cultural memes from within a marginalized group.
Punch up, not down. Whenever possible.
Thanks again for this. I just now saw the thread about ERA needing to do better with this stuff so I apologise if I came across ignorant/hurtful to anyone.Note: A trans person can be bisexual just like a cis person can.
The general rule of thumb is it's not really wise to make jokes about marginalized groups unless you're part of the group in question, and even then, it's still possible to perpetuate harmful stereotypes and negative cultural memes from within a marginalized group.
Punch up, not down. Whenever possible.
I maybe full of myself too, no denying it, but I ain't pressing anyone to accept my view and I don't pretend to speak in the name of the whole trans community like some of you are. I don't think asking for "these sort of demands" is weird in a convo, it's basic decency regardless of stance. Anyway, I really have other things on my mind and this exchange has run its course as far as I'm concerned.
Including all these other reasons, I'm curious how her impending book launch is affecting her choice not to comment on these posts. I can't imagine the last two-ish weeks have been good in her publisher's point of view. Still lame.While her possible reasoning for avoiding an apology might be to not give right wing extremists fuel, maybe care more for your disappointed fans than trolls.
Is she known for having an ego? Honest question, I'm fairly new to Ellis.
I couldn't say. I've actually been following her work basically since she started as a distaff counterpart of some other reviewer, but I think she might have reacted brusquely when other things haven't worked in the past? And there was a Contrapoints and Hbomberguy livestream that she appeared in where she seemed a bit haughty with this other less prominent Bread tuber and I remember thinking it wasn't a good look. Just vague impressions on my end, really.
But honestly the greater thing that annoys me about the whole Ellis/Bread Tube thing is how cliquey it all apparently is which I cannot give a shit about. To the point that it's imo causing me to reevaluate the value of the more personality/identity/sensibility driven section of bread tube because I don't really have the time to be getting somewhat emotionally invested in this messy shit lol.
Some people also refer to 'left tube' but it's really more like center-left tube in aggregate.
I'm still not quite following, is this a site that aggregates left-leaning youtube content? Or is it it's own hosting platform? Do you join bread tube, or does it pick your content? I very honestly have never heard of this, and the front page to that site doesn't clarify.
ah. thanks!
I would like to say she won't, but she shows no remorse or even self-awareness of the situation.She made a mistake, Lindsay is great otherwise. She probably won't make it again.
She made a mistake, Lindsay is great otherwise. She probably won't make it again.