Lindsay Ellis: We Need To Talk About Game of Thrones

ProfessorLobo

Member
Oct 31, 2017
982
I was looking forward to this but can only agree that there's not that much of worth here. The recap seemed particularly pointless since it's filled with joke names and the like that make it next to impossible to really get an understanding if you haven't already seen the show yourself.

Well, mentioning how irrelevant Clegane Bowl is from a dramatic standpoint is a start. Even large parts of /r/freefolk seemed to be genuinely into that, and not just for the meme potential.
Yeah that's the one thing I liked about the video and I didn't hear much about in the forums. Cleganebowl was pure fan service to the detriment of character. And arya and cleganes last conversation was duuumb
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,451
I am upset that all of my fellow thrones watchers did not alert me to this news and now I have to forgo gf time in order to watch this. SHAME


(I am so happy)

(Lol that opening)
 

Border

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,296
I'm not sure why she talks about "subverting expectations" when the final seasons were largely about fan service and the writers seemed to be leaning towards a villainous turn for Dany for at least a couple years. Most of what happened was widely theorized, given her family history and threats of fire and blood. D&D largely gave people what they wanted, and what they were expecting. I think the only unexpected thing was the breakneck speed at which the show moved through major events, and how unceremoniously Cersei and Jaime met their end.
 

jett

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,698
I think some sort of recap is in order just because people that binged the show probably have trouble differentiating between what happened when and in which season, but a 20 minute recap is way too much.

If someone hasn't seen the show ever I don't know why they would want to watch a 45 minute video about Game of Thrones, and even if they did that recap probably isn't going to help them really understand any of the arguments being made.
I like Ellis usually, but I don't think she had a good handle on this topic, considering she brought nothing new to the table at all. Or maybe she didn't even know what to say. Maybe she had no real plan for a video about Game of Thrones *cough cough.* Especially considering she now has to make a second part. :P She was angered like a million other GoT fans twitter (and was apparently equally blinded by her fanboyism for the show, unable to see the show's many flaws throughout the years), and thought she had to make a video because she's the lady that makes videos. She should've made some vlog after the show was over and save herself the trouble of editing together some half-baked analysis.
 
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umop 3pisdn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,776
If I were to give the most generous spin on the quote, Benioff could have meant that it isn't necessary for writers to be purposeful in creating theme with the implication that it can arise naturally from the writing. Still, it reeks of a man whose interest in ASOIAF was that it could surprise and shock the audience rather than the things the series is actually good at.
Even if consciously weaving theme into a story is optional, the 8th grade book report comment is ostensibly saying that that activity is unsophisticated, when the deliberate and successful use of theme is (arguably) the most sophisticated act possible within storytelling. There is no reading of that comment that isn't profoundly baffling lol.
 
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4Tran

Member
Nov 4, 2017
804
I'm not sure if some 4 quips-per-minute recap is really going to give you any kind of good context for story discussion though. It's like going to a CinemaSins video to learn the plot of Inception.
The point isn't to explain the plot of Game of Thrones. It's to give a general impression of the shape of the plot and give a bit of insight into some of the thinking that went into the writing.

I think that statement is so bad it can't be spun into anything even remotely coherent. Even if consciously weaving theme into a story is optional, the 8th grade book report comment makes it sound like that activity is unsophisticated, when the deliberate and successful use of theme is (arguably) the most sophisticated act possible within storytelling.
It's definitely not a good look. I was just trying to be as generous as possible.
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,504
Scotland
Eh not her strongest video, but I'm hoping the part 2 picks it up because I've been keen to hear what she had to say about this in more depth.
 

Aine

Member
May 27, 2019
992
The writers have stated that "themes are for 8th grade book reports", which is so wrong on so many levels that it's hard to fully explain just how dumb that statement is. Not surprisingly, treating basic coherence with contempt leads to, as you said, mind-bogglingly bad storytelling.

I don't know where that mentality comes from either. To me, it smells too much like these people felt like paying attention to the plot threads of the story was too much work, so they threw all that out the window, pulled whatever they wanted out of their asses, and hid behind this "we're too good to pay attention to themes anymore" bullshit attitude as a way to run from all criticism.
Seems like a common mantra among most modern TV/movie writers.
 

Neoriceisgood

Member
Oct 26, 2017
684
I was looking forward to this but can only agree that there's not that much of worth here. The recap seemed particularly pointless since it's filled with joke names and the like that make it next to impossible to really get an understanding if you haven't already seen the show yourself.

Well, mentioning how irrelevant Clegane Bowl is from a dramatic standpoint is a start. Even large parts of /r/freefolk seemed to be genuinely into that, and not just for the meme potential.
Yep this is my sentiment exactly, the in-jokes, references and nicknames make me feel it'd be impossible for anyone not familiar with the show to grasp some massive chunks of that summary.
 

adamsappel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,971
The recaps weren't to catch the audience up with GOT, they were to make jokes (and since she said she was stealing some of them from someone else, I didn't find them that funny). I like her other videos, but I thought she did a better job reacting in real time on Twitter. Waiting so long to put out this video and it's mostly just snark was mildly disappointing. It's interesting to see how people who clearly don't like having to advertise in their videos but can't say no to the opportunity handle it. I much prefer them to just do a straight ad without winks or apologies. Making a joke out of it is just as off-putting as radio DJs who suddenly pretend they want to start talking about Tito's vodka or home security systems.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
2,474
Yeah, this wasn't her best. It felt like she just wanted to let out all of her misgivings about the 8th season. We'll see how part 2 shapes up.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,276
I'm not sure why she talks about "subverting expectations" when the final seasons were largely about fan service and the writers seemed to be leaning towards a villainous turn for Dany for at least a couple years. Most of what happened was widely theorized, given her family history and threats of fire and blood. D&D largely gave people what they wanted, and what they were expecting. I think the only unexpected thing was the breakneck speed at which the show moved through major events, and how unceremoniously Cersei and Jaime met their end.
D&D straight up said that they had Arya kill the NK because having Jon Snow doing it was what everyone expected.
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,435
Lost it at the freaking corgis in that CleganeBowl montage, but yeah nothing new in the video, maybe more of a recap of what the whole internet's opinion has been.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
487
I don't think I've ever been disappointed in a youtube video before. I don't watch many content creators, but Lindsay is very good- and it makes this episode extremely disappointing. It feels like this episode was made out of a sense of obligation, but like everyone has said it is a month late and says nothing new. Just like season 8 of GOT, this video has great production values and very little to say. It wouldn't be so bad if she was going to follow up with part 2 very quickly, but I don't get the sense that's going to happen. As such it makes me question what value there was to this episode that couldn't have been condensed down into a single video.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,340
Watched half but read this exact critique everywhere so far. Unless I'm missing an M. Night twist.

Edit* guy above hit the snail on its shed.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,281
needs more Cheddarbowl.

Also, the Tywin senpai bit and the flute with Euron killed me. To a point where it was legit distracting, because all could hear was that shitty flute. Which is also the name of the youtube channel, if you're interested in that.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
934
Are we canceling Lindsay now too?
I can only speak for myself but.

She remarked on Twitter that Zack Snyder hates his mother. She rightfully got called out for it by people and linked to articles of him speaking glowingly about his mother and their relationship. And her response was basically a shrug and I was just joking.

It was a shitty joke in poor taste and she didn't even apologize after. She just started playing victim and complaining snyder fans were attacking her.

She's just another person who contributes to toxic nerd culture with zero self awareness.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,200
Not a lot new in this but Ellis's sense of humour clicks with me so it was still worth a watch.

I can only speak for myself but.

She remarked on Twitter that Zack Snyder hates his mother. She rightfully got called out for it by people and linked to articles of him speaking glowingly about his mother and their relationship. And her response was basically a shrug and I was just joking.

It was a shitty joke in poor taste and she didn't even apologize after. She just started playing victim and complaining snyder fans were attacking her.

She's just another person who contributes to toxic nerd culture with zero self awareness.
I'm sorry...what? There has to be more to this than "She joked Zack Snyder dislikes his mother but actually he likes her" otherwise yeah, it does just sound like Snyder fans jumping on any excuse to yell at someone.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
934
Not a lot new in this but Ellis's sense of humour clicks with me so it was still worth a watch.



I'm sorry...what? There has to be more to this than "She joked Zack Snyder dislikes his mother but actually he likes her" otherwise yeah, it does just sound like Snyder fans jumping on any excuse to yell at someone.
Claiming that someone hates their dead mother because you dont like their creative works even though that person cites that person as an inspiration to them and dedicated a film to them then not backing down and apologizing is trashy as fuck. But hey you do you. I guess that's her "humour" you click with.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,200
Claiming that someone hates their dead mother because you dont like their creative works even though that person cites that person as an inspiration to them and dedicated a film to them then not backing down and apologizing is trashy as fuck. But hey you do you.
Was there more context around it or just her going "He hates his mother" ? Because I could certainly see someone extrapolating that from the themes in his films, admittedly that is probably more due to their low quality than his actual intended point though.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,386
Was there more context around it or just her going "He hates his mother" ? Because I could certainly see someone extrapolating that from the themes in his films, admittedly that is probably more due to their low quality than his actual intended point though.
Didn't know about this either but found this:



To be quite frank, disliking his film is one thing, saying this about him, even as a joke, is an incredibly fucked up thing to say. She's not an idiot, she knows full well that people are gonna take that seriously and believe it.

"I don't like this guy's work and neither does my audience/peers, let's tell everyone he hates his mother." Is fucking disgusting.
 

TheGhost

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,047
Long Island
Didn’t like her forced “Bobby b!” Moments it just came off cringe. This is the first of her videos i watched. Though it did get me through a boring few minutes of work on Friday, this is too.....idk her complaints are not my complaints. Definitely a disconnect
Didn't know about this either but found this:



To be quite frank, disliking his film is one thing, saying this about him, even as a joke, is an incredibly fucked up thing to say. She's not an idiot, she knows full well that people are gonna take that seriously and believe it.

"I don't know anything about this guy, let's tell everyone he hates his mother." Is fucking disgusting.
Yeah see...no...I don't like people like this.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
934
Was there more context around it or just her going "He hates his mother" ? Because I could certainly see someone extrapolating that from the themes in his films, admittedly that is probably more due to their low quality than his actual intended point though.
There was no context. It was just a trashy out of place tweet. Her frankly pathetic attempt at humour.

She has since deleted it.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,200
There was no context. It was just a trashy out of place tweet. Her frankly pathetic attempt at humour.

She has since deleted it.
Fair, seems like a bad joke in poor taste because she didn't know anything about him and she deleted it. I'm not going to hold grudges for that but I can understand why others would.
 
Oct 27, 2017
894
man Who?
Yeah I have a lot of issues with Meyer and Twilight but she's 100% right that the general vitriol surrounding it boils down to "it's a franchise for girls."

So were Annie Rice novels/movies but no one had a problem with those. I think people's problems with Twilight are based on legitimate issues with Twilight. Racist symbolism and casting decisions, sparkling vampires, dudes falling in love with babies, cringy dialogue, etc.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,386
Didn’t like her forced “Bobby b!” Moments it just came off cringe. This is the first of her videos i watched. Though it did get me through a boring few minutes of work on Friday, this is too.....idk her complaints are not my complaints. Definitely a disconnect

Yeah see...no...I don't like people like this.
Slight vent here but when I was in school I actually got bullied similar to this. Kids who decided I was a bit weird spreading shit about me. In particular my cat died and they told everyone I did it. I litteraly had a girl ask it to my face and when I went off on her the response she made was very similar to Lindsay's "Well the jokes not funny cus I didn't know that."
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,276
Didn't know about this either but found this:



To be quite frank, disliking his film is one thing, saying this about him, even as a joke, is an incredibly fucked up thing to say. She's not an idiot, she knows full well that people are gonna take that seriously and believe it.

"I don't like this guy's work and neither does my audience/peers, let's tell everyone he hates his mother." Is fucking disgusting.
Yikes.

That's especially in poor taste coming from her, someone who has lost a parent.
 

Donald Draper

Banned
Feb 2, 2019
934
Fair, seems like a bad joke in poor taste because she didn't know anything about him and she deleted it. I'm not going to hold grudges for that but I can understand why others would.
For me the joke was in poor taste but if you quickly say I'm sorry that was a bad joke etc etc fine, I can move past it even though the joke was still gross. But the response and then her immediate turn to play victim afterwards was laughable. Lost all respect for her after it.

Hate and critique his work that's fair game, but not sure why people have to take it into personal attacks, especially from all accounts nobody has ever had a bad word to say about him as a person and working with him.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,312
Didn't know about this either but found this:



To be quite frank, disliking his film is one thing, saying this about him, even as a joke, is an incredibly fucked up thing to say. She's not an idiot, she knows full well that people are gonna take that seriously and believe it.

"I don't like this guy's work and neither does my audience/peers, let's tell everyone he hates his mother." Is fucking disgusting.
That was very obviously a joke about common themes of Snyder's films, not something anyone should take seriously as some sort of purported gossip. Doesn't look like she exactly doubled down, either, but rather immediately explained her ignorance on the matter.

Don't see how that makes her a remotely bad person. If Snyder himself had commented, I'm sure she would've apologized, but doing so to some random fan is unnecessary. Such eagerness to "cancel" people is profoundly toxic.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,276
That was very obviously a joke about common themes of Snyder's films, not something anyone should take seriously as some sort of purported gossip. Doesn't look like she exactly doubled down, either, but rather immediately explained her ignorance on the matter.

Don't see how that makes her a remotely bad person. If Snyder himself had commented, I'm sure she would've apologized, but doing so to some random fan is unnecessary. Such eagerness to "cancel" people is profoundly toxic.
Please, don't. The joke itself was in poor taste. Snyder makes some nerd films that nerds don't like and somehow this gives nerds the right yo joke about his mother? This is not like he made some problematic statement concerning women or mother's, he just made a hero film. That sort of edgy personal attack is already cringe and part of the toxic waste of nerd culture.

She was then informed of reality and instead of apologizing, she played victim and doubled down with, "relax, twas but a joke." The excuse every edgelord, wanna terrible comic makes right next to "sorry you were offended." And, what sort of ridiculous notion do you have where unless the person insulted demands an apology you don't have to give one?
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
5,386
That was very obviously a joke about common themes of Snyder's films, not something anyone should take seriously as some sort of purported gossip. Doesn't look like she exactly doubled down, either, but rather immediately explained her ignorance on the matter.

Don't see how that makes her a remotely bad person. If Snyder himself had commented, I'm sure she would've apologized, but doing so to some random fan is unnecessary. Such eagerness to "cancel" people is profoundly toxic.
"I have it on good authority Zack Snyder hates his mother."

That is a fucking indefensible thing to post. Whether she knew about his mother or not.

Hell it doesn't even work as a joke. The mother characters in his films all live and are shown as perfect pariahs. I think the only mother he kills in a film is Clarks birth mother cus she dies as part of superman's mythos anyway, even then she is shown as a selfess hero.