• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,278
Jamie on the other hand was never much of a considerate person.. He killed the mad king also because he ordered him to murder his dad. He has had redemption but it is more due to the people he spent time with. Jamie always put himself and his sister first.

Season 8 is still shit and ruined almost all characters and tried to forget all character development, but this Linsey series is reaching it with some of the arguments.

Huh? I don't see where you're getting this interpretation of Jaime's character from. In the big scene where he explains his motivation for killing the Mad King (the bath scene with Brienne) he says something like "How could you stand by whilst your kind ordered you to kill your father and stand by whilst thousands burnt." Then in Season 1 he makes a clear reference to the 'Burn them all' thing in defence of what he did. Those aren't exactly things that someone who didn't care would do.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,198
HBO owns the tv rights, not D&D. If they didn't they wouldn't be able to make these spin-offs (it's also, you know, online). D&D's Netflix deal didn't even happen until years after HBO announced the end date for the show. Why this easily fact-checked, completely made-up stuff keeps getting peddled around here, I don't know.

I do think D&D have some kind of rights deal with GRRM or regarding Game of Thrones.

Still, the two will be credited as executive producers on any and all Game of Thrones prequel series, though they declined to be involved in any sort of hands-on capacity with any of the scripts currently in development/at the pilot stage. (HBO programming president Casey Bloys told reporters this week that production on the prequel pilot has been completed.)

 

Seesaw15

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,809
I feel like that was a poor assumption in HBO if thats true. I dont know anyone who thought thrones didnt need more time even before the last couple seasons.
I lot of casual fans I know in real life/ non-book readers who host recap podcasts enjoyed the show but thought the pacing was too slow. Even with its flaws they really enjoyed how fast season 7 and most of 8 was. I would have liked more time but it really depends on who you ask.

Honestly, if D&D had made a few more fan service-y changes( Jon Killing the Night King, Arya Killing Cersi, etc) I think the vast majority of the viewers wouldn't have cared about how rushed the final season was.
 
Last edited:

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,606
I do think D&D have some kind of rights deal with GRRM.
That's not a book rights deal with GRRM, that's a tv producing deal with HBO. They have EP credit for spin-offs because it was probably built into their contract for GoT. Doesn't mean they own the rights to anything, just means they negotiated for getting those credits.

it's not totally unlike Matthew McConnaughey and Woody Harrelson being credited as EPs for the second and third seasons of True Detective despite having nothing to do with them, though that's also not exactly the same situation either.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
I don't think not having enough seasons is really the problem. 8 seasons is already more than enough for any TV show let alone a high budget one like Game of Thrones. I think the problem is D&D basically phoned it in because they wanted to move on. And considering there's supposed to be about 7 books and reasonably the same amount of seasons not committing for the long run doesn't make them look any better. Like what if they botch the ending for their Star Wars trilogy, or their Netflix shit. If they weren't willing to commit to the highest profile TV show ever what makes any viewer or executive think they'll commit for anything else.

HBO were happy to do more seasons. It's expensive sure, but it's not like it wasn't a profitable show. They should have handed it over to different creators if they wanted to move on.
 

storaføtter

Member
Oct 26, 2017
952
Huh? I don't see where you're getting this interpretation of Jaime's character from. In the big scene where he explains his motivation for killing the Mad King (the bath scene with Brienne) he says something like "How could you stand by whilst your kind ordered you to kill your father and stand by whilst thousands burnt." Then in Season 1 he makes a clear reference to the 'Burn them all' thing in defence of what he did. Those aren't exactly things that someone who didn't care would do.

I suppose I forgot the empathise on saving thousands. Through out the series even when Jamie was redeeming himself he did not seem to me as a very honorable person thinking of the loss of innocent lives. Him saying fuck it and going back to Kings Landing is stupid, but I feel like it was plausible with his fucked relationship with his sister that he would go back to her as a hopeful puppy. Maybe not in such a way the show rushed.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I suppose I forgot the empathise on saving thousands. Through out the series even when Jamie was redeeming himself he did not seem to me as a very honorable person thinking of the loss of innocent lives. Him saying fuck it and going back to Kings Landing is stupid, but I feel like it was plausible with his fucked relationship with his sister that he would go back to her as a hopeful puppy. Maybe not in such a way the show rushed.
The main reason he kills the Mad King is because he wants to prevent the burning of King's Landing.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
Just tell me that due to their Netflic deal they're not getting their hands on Star Wars.
 

bunbun777

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,796
Nw
I could've sworn that D & D when bringing in GRRM had it in their contracts that as "creators" they couldn't be let go.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Benioff and Weiss put their own spin on GRRM's story to make it more digestible for a casual audience. That means simplification, quickening the pace and fanservice which helped popularize it.

As the series went on, they relied less and less on GRRM to write the story but with the GRRM's ending attached at the end.

But GRRM's ending is the epitome of anti-fanservice. And the journey they put the characters through doesn't mesh with the broad strokes of GRRM's ending. It feels like a conclusion for different characters that weren't on the show.

It seems like characters like Robb, Daenerys and Jon got built up more to make it more surprising when they failed and Bran got downplayed so as to make it more surprising when he won and because Benioff and Weiss weren't sure what to do with him without GRRM's details.

I lot of casual fans I know in real life/ non-book readers who host recap podcasts enjoyed the show but thought the pacing was too slow. Even with its flaws they really enjoyed how fast season 7 and most of 8 was. I would have liked more time but it really depends on who you ask.

Honestly, if D&D had made a few more fan service-y changes( Jon Killing the Night King, Arya Killing Cersi, etc) I think the vast majority of the viewers wouldn't have cared about how rushed the final season was.

Unfortunately, this is probably too. Casual audience want something more Hollywood when it comes to their high fantasy stories that confirms to them that the world is fair.

ASOIAF just hammers in the point that it isn't fair.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,444
Disaster. We won't get any decent closure until everyone involved with production is a good 10 years removed from everything and don't have to worry about awkwardness or blacklisting by talking honestly about it.
 

Ocarina_117

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,562
Great video.

Raises some new points, too.

Lord knows I've watched a lot of D&D takedowns lately, but this is still a good watch.
 

Nell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
441
It was a mistake to watch season 8, it just makes me more hungry for Winds of Winter to see the story told properly.
 

Naijaboy

The Fallen
Mar 13, 2018
15,250
Okay, this was much better than the first video. Some nice new points were made especially for Sansa which helps explains D&D's reasoning for the ending. I also like the LBJ comparison with Nixon, two people with absolute power yet used it in completely different ways.

Also, hbomberguy was on point with his voiceovers.
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
It was good. It made me mad all over again lol. Especially remembering all the Emmy love they're getting, ugh...

I agree that the show will be remembered for butchering its ending, but the story itself I could see becoming one of those that we like to retell. Especially if the books end up being more satisfying. The simple fact that it still evokes such strong opinions from people proves the story is bigger than the HBO series. At least, I think people will be interested in seeking out a better ending from the books. I'm sure we'll be seeing a new filmed adaptation eventually, as well, hopefully with the advantage of having the last few seasons of the HBO show as guidelines of what to not do with it.
 

MisterR

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,463
Goddamn what a mess this show was. Watching this just brings back what a mess it was.
 

SpitztheGreat

Member
May 16, 2019
2,877
Honestly, if D&D had made a few more fan service-y changes( Jon Killing the Night King, Arya Killing Cersi, etc) I think the vast majority of the viewers wouldn't have cared about how rushed the final season was.

Yes and no. I get the feeling that even "casual" fans of GOT were more invested than the average casual fan of a standard show. In my experience I haven't run into any fan that is even "good" with how the show ended. The best I've heard from these casual fans is that the show was "ok" and they just moved on without giving it much of a second thought. To me that's an incredible indictment of the show, that at best the final season isn't defended as it is just brushed aside, and has erased the good will from the previous seasons. Like Lindsey said, season 8 retroactively makes the rest of the show worse and I think even the most casual fan has noticed that.

And you're right, a few critical changes would have changed people's opinion, but not just because they were fan service, but because they would have made more sense than what we got. Arya killing the Night King is a questionable decision by itself (not terrible, but certainly not earned either), but if Jon get's the kill it is both fan service AND consistent with what the show had been setting up. If Arya kills Cersei it, again, is the culmination of almost a decade of story telling and is far more consistent than Cersei dying in a basement while weeping. Time and again in season 8, the obvious choice was not only the fan service-y option but also the one that maintained the most internal consistency. This is why the term "subverting expectations" is used so ironically, D&D got so hung-up on subverting expectations that they hurt the show by overthinking themselves.

That's been my major point all along about season 8; the majority of the problems with the season could have been fixed/improved/avoided with simple alterations. Everything about season 8 felt like the final script was also the first draft of the script. It reminds me of what I would do as a kid when I had forgotten to do my homework until the bus ride in the morning, a "oh shit, I gotta crank this out" mess that may have hit on the points the teacher wanted but didn't do it in an effective or cohesive way. You can keep Arya getting the kill on the Night King, but did anyone stop and ask if their script for Jon made any sense? So you want to make Jamie a dedicated lover to his monster sister? Ok, but does it do his character any service by stating things like "I never cared about the innocent"? Fine, you want to keep Cersei alive until the end? Does it really do her any service to have almost no screen time aside from drinking on the balcony, and then to die in such a indirect manner? Ok so Dany is the final big bad, but have we done enough in the first 4 episodes of the season to show her slip into madness? In the end D&D badly needed a fresh set of eyes because all of these issues strike me as originating from people who were too close to the material to see its flaws. With their omniscience of the story they unintentionally glossed over everything and gave only cursory attention to plot/character development because in their heads it was enough. That throw away line that the Red Priestess give Arya in Season 2? Yes, that was enough to justify her killing the Night King because we always knew it was going to end that way. Dany slipping into madness because we showed her being upset in episode 5? Yes, that was enough because we know where the story is going.

This is the reason that I hope GOT is remembered. There are lessons to be learned from this show that go beyond the standard comments about the writing. I think there is a real conversation to be had about the appropriate role of studio involvement (or interference as some would say) with a creative team. Did HBO execs trust D&D too much and take a too hands off approach with GOT in those final years? What did HBO truly think of season 8, and when did they think it? How will HBO (and any studio) approach a situation like this in the future? How do you balance the freedom that creative types will demand, with the structured organization that can help reel them in if they get off course?
 

Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,603
On one of her last points about Daenerys being too passionate and all the Starks being emotionless, maybe that was the point ("a song of ice and fire" and all that)? Ice won?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
The bit about 1:01:20 in, "It's effectively calling your audience hypocrites while holding your own characters to a weird double-standard".

Finally, prestige TV has reached a level of writing on par with video games!

WE DID IT!
CULTURE IS SOLVED!


giphy.gif
 

Kreed

The Negro Historian
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
I enjoyed her previous GOT video, but this was a much stronger video/really broke down the problems with this season and the characters. Jon Snow and Daenerys were my favorite segments, and I also like that she discussed how the fall out from the GOT ending and how fans have handled it differs from other entertainment properties like Star Wars.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,529
On one of her last points about Daenerys being too passionate and all the Starks being emotionless, maybe that was the point ("a song of ice and fire" and all that)? Ice won?

I'm not sure "emotions bad, blandness good" is a theme you want to hang your entire series on. Especially when said theme is often paired with structural, institutionalized misogyny implying that women can't be trusted to wield power because of their emotions.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,933
This is the only image that comes to mind now when thinking of Game of Thrones:

89vq0k09ugz21.jpg


I just don't have any anger or disappointment left and now it's in the same mental bin as Battlestar Galactica and Mass Effect 3.
 

Wanderer5

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,982
Somewhere.
Hell yeah, this is going to be quite fun to get through. Can't believe she ended up making a video this long lol.
 

V_Arnold

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,166
Hungary
She is right. The critics WERE right. The writing was botched, the whole series had a different trajectory compared to what happened.

Surprising viewers and "subverting expectations" can easily backfire if you have nothing to stand on. Similar to how Westworld's creators were hyperfocused on trying to outsmart a whole website with new episodes. This wont happen. Write good character arcs, and predictability wont matter (it will become a bonus instead).
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,358
She is right. The critics WERE right. The writing was botched, the whole series had a different trajectory compared to what happened.

Surprising viewers and "subverting expectations" can easily backfire if you have nothing to stand on. Similar to how Westworld's creators were hyperfocused on trying to outsmart a whole website with new episodes. This wont happen. Write good character arcs, and predictability wont matter (it will become a bonus instead).

Right. If you're a smart writer and implement your foreshadowing correctly, a certain portion of the viewers -should- know what's going to happen. That's what makes speculation fun.

Imagine if a show like Gravity Falls changed its reveal that

The author of the journals is Grunkle Stan's brother

just because people speculating online predicted that would happen because of breadcrumbs and hints left in by the writers?
 

V_Arnold

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,166
Hungary
Right. If you're a smart writer and implement your foreshadowing correctly, a certain portion of the viewers -should- know what's going to happen. That's what makes speculation fun.

Imagine if a show like Gravity Falls changed its reveal that

The author of the journals is Grunkle Stan's brother

just because people speculating online predicted that would happen because of breadcrumbs and hints left in by the writers?

I do not know that particular show, so I do not dare to jump in, but just wanted to clarify that it *is* or should be possible to also foreshadow your subversions as well. One can write a story where there are multiple concurrent interpretations for character motivations and events. This show just was not written with that in mind (and the way Danny's turn was presented in S8, there is zero room for alternative theories here either).
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,927
I was wondering how the different subreddits were reacting, and most are pretty good with one major exception where a moderator bot called "Feminazi propaganda" is deleting a bunch of stuff... so yeah.

Anyway, glad people are enjoying this one more!
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Setting up Tyrion as this cunning hero and reaching a point where he's written on a level that Dinklage himself (not to imply he's an unintelligent man) is like "I'm sorry what the fuck" is kind of amazing when you think about it.
 

Shiloh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,709
Ok, I'll admit
She's super Hitler, Hitler that flies!
really got me.

As usual, well laid out points from Lindsay (and co).
 

chalkitdown

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,217
That was a teriffic tear down of how much of a shit show the final few years of the show was.

The repeated uses of that shot of Varys rapping his knuckles on the desk and the opening riff of Limp Bizkit Break Stuff had me laughing pretty hard.