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Lindsey Ellis:The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes
- Thread starter TheGamingNewsGuy
- Start date
Everything is more obvious on the show just on account of it being filmed visually from an outside camera perspective rather than being the internal monologues from a specific POV character's perspective per chapter.
Robb's fuckups were known and foreshadowed in both the book and the show, but it was still shocking for two seemingly very important characters to just get snuffed out of the story like that. It makes sense, and you can see it coming the whole time (especially in retrospect), but there's a dread and dramatic irony in the reader of "he's not really going to kill them off right?" even after Ned. Which just shows how well Martin threads the needle between playing into tropes and subverting them. He subverts them by killing Ned in the end of the first book, and yet it's still surprising when Robb and Cat get got later on. Being in the character's heads is a really powerful way to lull you back into a sense of security as a reader. But there's also just the brutality and cruelty of the way the red wedding was carried out that is still shocking even if you suspect it.
"If this is liberation, he doesn't believe in liberation theology"
oh man, we dodged a bullet there at least. May it stay dead.
I haven't finished it but its good.
I'm glad she is pointing out some bullshit that happened that we discussed in the past mainly how Arya killed off the night king. Yea I dont need to really bring that fuss up again but I really disliked the fact some were willing to jump on the sexist train if you didnt like that out come. It literally made no sense for that to happen that way.
Anyways this is good. Will finish later.
I'm glad she is pointing out some bullshit that happened that we discussed in the past mainly how Arya killed off the night king. Yea I dont need to really bring that fuss up again but I really disliked the fact some were willing to jump on the sexist train if you didnt like that out come. It literally made no sense for that to happen that way.
Anyways this is good. Will finish later.
There was nothing likeable about that final season IMO.
Maybe because Bronn was an utterly pointless character and made the ending even more ridiculous.
It was actually a good thing this took so long because she was able to step back and respond to the defenses that have been the fallbacks in the discourse for the past couple months, rather than being in the thick of it in the weeks immediately after the season finished. And also get more context for things like the scripts leaking, fans supporting Emilia Clark's charity, etc.
I think there were lots of things to like about S8E1 and S8E2. Before they really shit the bed in S8E4-E5 most people were pretty well enjoying the season (the questionable cinematography of The Long Night notwithstanding). It wasn't until they did a very hard shift towards the Mad Queen that people started getting up-in-arms.
Given that "subverting expectations" was a major topic of these videos, I think CleganeBowl was definitely worth bringing up. When the showrunners were intentionally trying to surprise and shock, why is it that this one scenario played out like utter fan fiction? I think that is more interesting than just saying "Yeah Bronn sucks and had nothing really interesting to do."
I'm glad she pinpointed where the decline of the show happened (End of Season 4.) I'm pretty sure that lines up with when they learned about how GRRM wanted to end his books as well as when GRRM last had a say in anything happening on the show. I hope someday we learn about what really went down.
They invented sexplaining in the first 3 seasons. Though it was interesting for one brief moment at the end of season 6 where everyone thought this was feminist empowerment show when almost every major character was a woman in charge. That would have been a great 2 seasons if they stayed that course.
Honestly in the current JJ Abrams mystery box version of Star Wars, D&D will fit right in with all that. Of course they'll probably lose interest after 1 movie and want to move on to the next thing to ruin.
They invented sexplaining in the first 3 seasons. Though it was interesting for one brief moment at the end of season 6 where everyone thought this was feminist empowerment show when almost every major character was a woman in charge. That would have been a great 2 seasons if they stayed that course.
Honestly in the current JJ Abrams mystery box version of Star Wars, D&D will fit right in with all that. Of course they'll probably lose interest after 1 movie and want to move on to the next thing to ruin.
I found S8E1 and S8E2 to be incredibly disappointing in terms of character stuff and I think Lindsay covered that in this video. This is where D&D had to set up the latter half of the season and all the stupid stuff happened here - Bran pointlessly sitting around staring at everyone, Sansa being needlessly antagonistic to Dany while being buddy buddy with the Lannisters who destroyed her family, Jon and Arya having 2 seconds of screentime together - despite their relationship being central to the books, no Jon and Ghost reunion, Jon not given any time to process this big reveal about his parents, why did Dany let Jon suddenly ride dragons without knowing about his parentage? why did all the characters have no clue about Jon after he rode dragons? why does Arya have nothing to do other than shag Gendry? It was painful watching those first few episodes rushing to an ending.
But that's just my take on it of course. If you liked some if that's good. I think the Lannisters - Jaime and Tyrion had some good moment in there. Cogman likes writing for them and gives them good scenes. Jaime knighting Brienne was also good.
Seriously, can you believe the amount of money these dingii are getting paid for their next deal
Without even considering Star Wars
How the
How the hell do the people who inked that deal not pick up on something so obvious, that these guys don't know what they're doing if they aren't taking it out of someone else's work, if at all
They basically bombed 4 seasons straight outside of director intervention, and I say that as someone who gave them the benefit of the doubt much longer than they deserved
One of these dudes wrote X-Men Origins: Wolverine
"From the duo behind Game of Thrones" is straight up negative money at this point
This is how peak TV dies
Without even considering Star Wars
How the
How the hell do the people who inked that deal not pick up on something so obvious, that these guys don't know what they're doing if they aren't taking it out of someone else's work, if at all
They basically bombed 4 seasons straight outside of director intervention, and I say that as someone who gave them the benefit of the doubt much longer than they deserved
One of these dudes wrote X-Men Origins: Wolverine
"From the duo behind Game of Thrones" is straight up negative money at this point
This is how peak TV dies
Companies just saw the cultural and financial impact it made and thought I'll have that.
They'd put paint drying on the air if it got eyes and engagement.
That's what I mean though. Those first two episodes had all kinds of good character interactions, often between beloved characters that had never before met each other. Brienne getting her knighthood was probably the best moment of the entire season. That stuff kinda gets undercut by the lackluster conclusion and all the bad character stuff that happened, but they were all quite lovable moments at the time.
As far as fan favourite characters existing for no other reason than they're fan favourites, Bronn stands out more than the Hound. Also if you're talking about the Hound, you need to dive into Arya's idiotic arc and the video is already an hour long so using Bronn is just easier.
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The thing she doesn't really touch upon (even though it would be a brilliant stroke), is that D&D aren't really about subverting expectations. They are about delivering what fans want. Fans don't want to see Tyrion or Jon as anything less than completely virtuous, therefore Dany has to become Dragon Hitler Who Must Be Killed. If Tyrion and Jon had to make a more difficult or ambiguous choice to kill her, then fans would be upset to see them murdering a potentially good leader.
CleganeBowl is the most obvious piece of evidence that D&D just want to write fanservice, and bringing that up works in service of her greater narrative that the plot was largely contrived to keep beloved main characters from having to enter into any kind of moral grey area. I'm not saying Bronn should have been left out, but just that the Cleganes should have had a much bigger priority.
The entire thesis of GoT is basically summarized in this dril tweet
I think that point was established well enough with her deep dive into Dany's character shift in the final season and how it reflects the story being anchored firmly by the end point. I want to say I would want to her to include The Hound in that but I'm surprised I made it through this video.
I do think that the idea behind why Dany is dead and Bran is king is because Bran sees the humanity in everyone and Dany does not.
It's implied that Bran values all life from the deleted scene in the script and Daenerys only values the lives of people who she doesn't have anything against.
She's merciless towards anyone that would oppose her which includes people like slavers and rapists but could also include otherwise decent people like Tyrion and Dickon Tarly.
So what Benioff and Weiss are inelegantly saying are that we cheered her on because she directed her brutality against the right people but her views of who the right people aren't always going to be the right people.
She has a mode of conduct against her enemies that is brutal and she's not going to change. The show does build that up. It's just that people thought it was to make Dany look cool rather than foreshadowing and making a statement.
But I hate that they used "the first they came for" approach. It's a little insulting
House Baratheon's revival.
This falls into her criticism that much in the show is implied or said by characters about other characters, that is not born out by their actions. Nothing is actually implied by Bran's actions or even statements that makes this evident. Sentiments like 'caring for all things' are also rather bland platitudes that must be reflected in ways of doing. Bran becomes an incredibly bland character, where blandness and disinterest are somehow associated with rationality and wisdom. Nothing he said in the last season was particularly wise or enlightened, and the whole 'sees all things' claptrap also didn't have much relevance outside of the R&L revelation. He is also far from an outsider being the younger son of a major artistocratic family, and while being differently abled, has a supernatural power (which again he makes little effective use of, or seems largely irrelevant).
That Sansa breakdown felt really cathartic because it outlined every single one of my gripes with her character progression in that final season.
But why would Jon murder a good leader? On the show or in the books, it makes no sense for Jon as a character to murder a good leader. That is not who Jon is. Book Tyrion atleast has a darker arc. Randomly turning Jon into a evil guy murdering good people makes no sense even if they were not into fanservice...They have to justify that writing.
And this is why they should have stuck to the central premise of the series - the frigging white walkers and the existential apocalypse that is the equivalent of climate change while world leaders squabble over power. That should have been the climax - that should have been when good and bad unite and put behind their enmities against a common threat - this evil from beyond the wall. Dany dying in the battle against the Others would have been more fitting for her arc than randomly turning her bad at the end to make some nonsensical statement about how power corrupts and how only Jon could kill her blah blah.
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People liked Bronn, but they didn't have any particular expectations for him other than to see him continue to be a lovable rogue. Nobody expected him to become Lord of Highgarden or Master of Coin. By contrast, CleganeBowl is literally a fan theory made canon. So I think it makes her case much more strongly because the direction that D&D went was so much closer to what a certain contingent of fans were intent on seeing happen. In the new video she barely brings up the "subverting expectations" concept, so it just feels like that thread was dropped in favor of a more subtle approach.
I don't see why GOT S8 couldn't have been a series of three or four 30-40 minute videos, rather than a megadump of two videos that were 45 and 70 minutes a piece. I would have preferred a more longform approach that allowed her to address more stuff and respond to viewer reactions. One of my problems with Ellis is that she seems to devote an inordinate amount of time and effort to films that were universally disliked from the very beginning (The Hobbit, Transformers). If the worst output of Michael Bay and Del Toro were worthy of extended discussion, then certainly something like Game of Thrones deserves an equal amount of attention (if not more). At least there is stuff to enjoy about GOT (even Season 8).
Said disinterest is more because Bran's become a kind of a Doctor Manhattan figure that sees the strings of fate and follows its course. But Bran does ally himself with two of people that tried to kill him and sees that there's some measure of goodness in them. He saves Jaime from being executed and gives Theon some measure of catharsis when Bran chooses to call him a good man and thanks him.
Anyways, Bran's an outcast in the sense that he's looked down upon by Westerosi society in general even if he is a blue blood because of his disability. He's in the same camp as Tyrion. Privileged and yet also an outcast.
Tyrion, Bran, Brienne and Sam are the guys that don't fit in with the 1%.
Like, even Bran's bannermen who should respect him view him as an oddity or whisper behind his back that he should kill himself if he isn't a coward despite him being like 9.
The problem is that D&D got the plot synopsis from GRRM, but have none of his craft, skill, time, or subtlety. They were told that Jon kills Dany, so they felt they had to turn her into a war criminal to justify that. And they had to do it within the span of 12-14 episodes rather than two 1000-page books. Ideally the story wouldn't be "Jon murdering a good leader" or "Jon murdering Dragon Hitler"......it would be Jon having to make a difficult decision about murdering a leader with noble goals but brutal and questionable methods of attaining those goals. If nothing else GRRM has insisted that ASOIAF is about exploring the grey areas of morality and ethics. The problem with S8 is that they did not want a grey area, because they felt fans couldn't handle beloved characters doing potentially questionable things.
But again, considering the world they are in, Jon would agree with those brutal and questionable methods of attaining those goals. In the books, Jon completely supports Stannis and actually helps him strategically and with useful intel - despite Stannis' tendency to brutally burn people to death for the Lord of Light. As Lindsay points out when the show was following the books, Robb's campaign in the south lead to the deaths and suffering of the small folk in the riverlands, the WOT5K lead to untold suffering - and that was not inflicted by Dany.
That's the problem - the brutality that Dany used is something other characters in the books have been doing now for 5 books. All the characters are nobles and no one gives a damn about the small folk. As Lindsay points out, Tyrion was killing soldiers with wildfire, but suddenly Dany's use of dragonfire is a terrible atrocity for him? That they suddenly veered into 21st century morals to have Jon and Tyrion condemn Dany would make no sense in the books - because in the world of the books, brutal conquest is an accepted thing.
So Jon murdering Dany because she's a good leader but does ambiguously bad stuff does not make any sense for the book version either. Every character in the books does ambiguously shady stuff including Jon.
Again, this is why the climatic battle with the White walkers was important. The books has mythology and prophecies including one in which the prince that was promised has to forge lightbringer by stabbing the one he loves - Nissa Nissa. If Dany asks Jon to kill her to save the world - that completely changes this ending. In this version, Dany has agency. She makes the ultimate decision to give up her life to save everyone and asks that Jon kill her.
The show actually foreshadowed this in Dany's vision in season 2 - where she sees the burned down KL and then hearing a cry from beyond the wall, goes there to unite with Drogo and her child in the afterlife. But when D&D actually got to the final season, they made Cersei and Dany the final baddies - and got rid of the White Walkers in one terribly written episode.
Leaders like Dany and Stannis are flawed rulers and do bad things for what they think are the right reasons - but GRRM does give them a chance to do the right thing. Dany may burn down KL fighting fAegon but she will do the right thing against the ice zombies.
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Lets be fair, GRRM might not still not get it write even with two 1,000 pages books, hence the rumblings we've constantly heard about him splitting ADoS into two.
The short fact is that this ending could've worked, if we had at least 3-4 more seasons to flesh it out. Watching S7 and especially 8 feels like someone on Youtube who made a compilation video of all the seaons's coolest scenes but cut out all the "boring" stuff like good dialogue and character motivations and set ups.
One small point I'd disagree with is Tyrion's downfall as a character starting in Season 5. It actually occurs at the end of season 4 where they take out the Tysha reveal and change the context of him killing Shae and Tywin.
Yeah, I was thinking during that bit that Confederate is going to be an absolute shitshow if it goes ahead.
I really was moved by Brienne being knighted, I thought that was a lovely scene... which they then shat all over with what they reduced her and Jamie to..
UGHhhhhhhhhhhghhhhhhhhhh
While I don't deny that more time and more episodes would have been useful and important, I tend to think that this argument ignores how many other characters would have been completely left in limbo if the show had been stretched out to 24-36 more episodes. That's ultimately the problem with having GRRM give D&D the Cliff's Notes version of the ending.......they felt obligated to get to the place he wanted them to be, but couldn't come up with storylines to keep the other characters busy for years. At the same time all their child actors are getting older and older and less appropriate to use......while the adult actors are getting more and more opportunities to work on other projects. I think D&D's execution was bad, but I find it hard to fault them for a "wrap it up quickly" approach rather than a "three or four more seasons" approach.
I think the war against the Whitewalkers and Night King should have been more than a single episode, but it would have been tedious to stretch it across seasons.
Her points about Sansa and Jaime are particularly strong. They completely ruined those characters when they were two of the most unique and interesting characters
That is definitely on the showrunners. For whatever reason, they wanted Jon to be the hero and unassailable protagonist, so they couldn't have him agree with Dany's methods in any fashion.
I feel like this just comes down to the admittedly self-inflicted problem of the show just not having enough time to flesh things out. Once D&D realized how much they were flailing for storylines when they ran out of material to adapt, the most logical decision was to end things quickly rather than wait fro GRRM to conclude the story.
As much as people wanted the show to run for 3-4 more years, I can't help but think it would have been worse if it did.
Every choice the writers made with Jaime could have been smoothed over if he just killed Cersei under the keep and she knew it was him. "father would be so disappointed"
I have no desire to ever watch the show again with how badly it ended, and how thoroughly they trashed some of the best characters ever brought to life on TV.
They did have Jon agreeing with Dany's methods! Throughout the season, Jon was pretty much the only person sticking up for Dany against Sam, Sansa, Arya, Varys and even Tyrion at the end there pointing out their hypocritical double standards with respect to their critique of her violence.
Once they wrote Dany as a mass murderer, at that point anyone could have killed her and it would be the right thing to do - not just Jon. Tyrion should have killed her - he brought her to Westeros. They just wanted to wind up the series as quick as possible so we got mad, angry Dany in 2 seconds, Jon kills her and no one cares about her anymore. The end.
The worst was pacifist Tyrion for me. The guy who, in the books - killed and cooked a singer in stew, raped a slave because she was repulsed by him and wanted to rape and kill Cersei - this guy, being the voice of morality against Dany. Or Arya and Sansa condemning Dany for not being - 'one of them' and D&D thinking that this xenophobic attitude is right and Cersei - after all the vile things she did - being redeemable because she's a mother unlike monster Dany who is barren and how women with hard power like Dany are tyrants while women like Cersei and Sansa who get their soft power from men deserve good endings.
I mean, they gave Cersei a good ending (trashing Jaime's character in the process) - dying in the arms of someone she loved, while having Dany be betrayed and killed by the man she loved. Why?
I think it's less of a time problem and more of their favoritism and bias towards certain actors/characters. They should have got rid of Cersei in season 7 - Dany taking her out by attacking KL, all this resolved in that entire season. While Arya and Bran get North and reunites with Jon and Ghost and Nymeria. And together with Sansa, they get rid of LF within a couple of episodes and unite the North against the threat. The WW have managed to get around the wall and they have skirmishes with the dead. By the end of season, Jon hears about Dany and goes to ask for help. Give Bran and Arya more to do in running the North.
Spend season 8 on the long night against the white walkers. With some side plots like Varys or Tyrion/plotting against Dany, Sansa wanting to be queen and trying to get rid of Dany, Jon and his parentage bringing about conflict etc.
D&D's need to keep Cersei/Lena Headey in the game till the very last episode and writing trash for other baddies like LF and Varys is why we have this mess. In the books, Cersei's most likely gone in the next book.
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i never really understand the whole "thrones was ruined by the ending" thing. all the actual criticisms apply to the last four seasons. all that was good about the show in the second half was the spectacle. battle of the bastards, blowing up the sept, pretty much everything "cool" was fucking stupid and made no sense. it was just the plot driving characters to the next "moment," and doing it poorly.
ellis even points out the nonsense how the people of king's landing just disappeared from the story after the explosion as well as other trash along the way, but still ends with the video by saying that it's perhaps the ending that ruined a show the worst. how can that be when half the show was bad?
ellis even points out the nonsense how the people of king's landing just disappeared from the story after the explosion as well as other trash along the way, but still ends with the video by saying that it's perhaps the ending that ruined a show the worst. how can that be when half the show was bad?
It's because as long as the ending is still in the future, there's still potential for a course-correction and a good conclusion to the overall journey. When the ending is also terrible it removes that excuse, and makes everything that came before it even worse in retrospect.
Hey, I would like to be an Emperor because I know Anna Karenina.
Anyway, she hit the nail on the head with how this ending makes the entirety of the show worthless and how it might be one of the worst endings ever in that regard. At least with something like Dexter it doesn't continuously build up to anything, so you would still be able to watch the first four seasons and kinda forget that the rest exist. With this, the first four seasons unashamedly build up to stuff for later, stuff that all turns out to be either of no consequence or total bullshit.
Anyway, she hit the nail on the head with how this ending makes the entirety of the show worthless and how it might be one of the worst endings ever in that regard. At least with something like Dexter it doesn't continuously build up to anything, so you would still be able to watch the first four seasons and kinda forget that the rest exist. With this, the first four seasons unashamedly build up to stuff for later, stuff that all turns out to be either of no consequence or total bullshit.
the problem i have with that is that by season 6 and 7 she show was already such a clusterfuck that it didn't seem possible to wrap it up with a nice bow in any satisfactory way.
She said all that really should be said, and anything she missed has already been reiterated by many other people. Taking down the whole 'first they came for...' analogy was the best part; it's ridiculous how awful the messaging of that final episode was and, to me, it seemed more like a justification made for a character turn that makes no sense than a message that was actually thought about in any meaningful way.
I like the point at the end about the relatively 'good-natured' backlash to the finale. As someone who really doesn't like The Last Jedi it really sucks just how many have used the film's faults as a way to harass and demean people regardless of whether they were involved with the story or not.
I like the point at the end about the relatively 'good-natured' backlash to the finale. As someone who really doesn't like The Last Jedi it really sucks just how many have used the film's faults as a way to harass and demean people regardless of whether they were involved with the story or not.
Oh, I agree. It's just that as long as there was the slightest glimmer of potential that they could give us a decent conclusion, people could still hold out hope. And hope can excuse a lot of faults. It's only in hindsight that people can admit to themselves just how bad things got.
That's all they were, though. Moments. They didn't build up to anything good. Brienne was knighted. That was a sweet scene. But that itself didn't really lead into anything all that good during the rest of the season, which kind of retroactively makes them just not all that noteworthy.
This was my second favourite section of her analysis. I already did not like Dany's turn at all, but watching this actually made me a bit angry about it. It's so vile and nihilistic