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Lindsey Ellis:The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes
- Thread starter TheGamingNewsGuy
- Start date
Excellent video, especially the breakdowns on how badly written Dany's turn and how dumb just about every character got. It also retroactive make Sansa's earlier season character better by showing how there was a real progression of intelligence there that sorta just vanished after the Eyrie and got replaced with people just telling us she's smart.
She's right about how this retroactively hurts the rest of the show. "Narrative Collapse" was the term I had seen for it - the point where the show loses you and the weight of all the previous narrative mistakes you'd overlooked suddenly crushes you and all those past issues suddenly matter. GoT's ending killed any excitement I'd have for a rewatch because I know Jon's parentage amounts to nothing more than a checkbox on the 'Why u mad?' Dany checklist in the end, the White Walkers go out with a big wet fart (I was really, REALLY hoping the show wouldn't do the "Kill the lead thingie and they all die!" route), and all the pains the show went through to show Dany's concern for the common people was wasted, plus many other things.
I think even with just a mediocre ending the show would be far better remembered and maintained rewatchability. Instead it faceplanted every plot thread it had in quick succession, so the doldrums of S5 and S7 are no longer just exceptions on way to a solid landing. Instead the bad parts are the real foreshadowing.
She's right about how this retroactively hurts the rest of the show. "Narrative Collapse" was the term I had seen for it - the point where the show loses you and the weight of all the previous narrative mistakes you'd overlooked suddenly crushes you and all those past issues suddenly matter. GoT's ending killed any excitement I'd have for a rewatch because I know Jon's parentage amounts to nothing more than a checkbox on the 'Why u mad?' Dany checklist in the end, the White Walkers go out with a big wet fart (I was really, REALLY hoping the show wouldn't do the "Kill the lead thingie and they all die!" route), and all the pains the show went through to show Dany's concern for the common people was wasted, plus many other things.
I think even with just a mediocre ending the show would be far better remembered and maintained rewatchability. Instead it faceplanted every plot thread it had in quick succession, so the doldrums of S5 and S7 are no longer just exceptions on way to a solid landing. Instead the bad parts are the real foreshadowing.
Yeah, it was obvious even in S5 that virtually every character not named Jon was spinning its wheels. And then even Jon's storyline turned to nonsensical shit.
That's why I can never rewatch this show again outside of some brief moments I like, nor recommend it to anyone who still has yet to watch it. You think I'm going to sit through S6 and watch Ayatollah Bernie Sanders waste our time again in a plot that only existed for 1 reason and 1 reason only (and is then quickly discarded)?
Fuck this show.
agreed.
what the hell happened to these plot lines that everyone was waiting to see:
- god of light
- whitewalkers and children of the forest
- faceless men
- purpose of jon's resurrection
- purpose of bran becoming the 3eyed raven and time travel other than learning about hodor and jons parentage
- purpose of jon's parentage
- ...
They threw out, hand waived, or ignored almost every single plot thread they had going in S8. It wouldn't have been any more satisfying.
Yep she's not wrong that the finale and the series leading up to it have completely spoilt rewatching the series. It's not like a sitcom like Community where you can just advise new viewers to just watch the first few series. You can't recommend that someone just watch the first 4 series of GoT and then give up. It'd be better to just say avoid. Crying shame considering the talent that made up the production.
I forgot that Bran's ability to change the past ended up being just for that one Hodor = Hold the Door moment.
look those are some questions or whatever but we really wanna do a star wars and a show about black people still being slaves
The part where she explains why we revisit stories and how they endure despite knowing the endings really hit hard.
I think the first thing I said to my girlfriend after the finale was 'I have no desire to ever rewatch this show again.'
I think the first thing I said to my girlfriend after the finale was 'I have no desire to ever rewatch this show again.'
I still firmly believe the first 4 seasons can stand on their own. They're eventful enough to be a satisfying journey despite the unresolved storylines.
Now the tv watchers can have the book readers full experience
LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO
Edit: ^ no fucking way
I'd give anything to know went on behind the scenes with GRR and D&D but I didn't think we ever will.
The point is that when your hot aunt wants the D you give it to her or thousands of innocents will be killed.
I thought that that too for the longest, even up until the later episodes of season 8. But not anymore.
Watching Ned tell Jon that he'll talk about his mother will only annoy me if I watch it on a rewatch because it amounts to jack shit and all I'll think about is "i duh wah it". And I'll have zero interest in anything involving Bran, the NW, or Jaime. Hell, I won't give a shit about Arya anymore either. They really ruined these characters and I don't see myself enjoying their early journey's without letting my hatred of their later stories seep into my thoughts.
The only stuff I think I'd still be able to stomach is KL politics and Tywin scenes. But I can pick and choose those scenes. I just don't see myself watching entire seasons anymore, even the good ones.
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As a Mass Effect fan, this reaction is acutely familiar.
And at least that series went back to TRY and expand upon its ending. But I remember that "what's the point of experiencing it again knowing the ending?" feeling so painfully well, which was really hard considering I had enjoyed it so much at that point that replaying Mass Effect over and over with different choices, romances, alliances, and job classes was what I figured I'd be doing for years... rather than just losing all motivation in that finale.
Granted, that was just the final 15 minutes of that game that burned all the bridges and salted the earth. Game of Thrones dragged that out through multiple seasons.... slowly...
I think saying they didn't care at all might be a step too far, but they definitely did not care about telling the kind of detail-oriented story about ruling a medieval society that made the books and TV show a hit. It doesn't help that the writing during the big set piece episodes like Beyond the Wall and The Long Night was also some of the worst in the series. They honestly could not do anything right by the end of the show.
Just looked it up and, of course, Beyond the Wall was written by D&D. I hate that damn episode
Same for me. I couldnt get thru the whole thing . At some point of the video i just said "omg shut up already" cause we heard it all before.
The last two seasons are what happens after GRRM distanced himself from D&D and they seemingly had no one to fact or character check any of the plot outlines.
The downward spiral on plotlines and characters parallels exactly where the source material ended. They have to have believed their own hype at the end thinking that the success of the show was as much theirs as it was GRRMs amazing characters and plot.
The fact that so many characters are stretched and made to ignore their own growth and history to fit into their bullshit arcs shows that you are right, they stopped caring and started only writing to big moments without a thought to how to justify them. I assume that writers room turned to all yes men
The funny thing is that even the good parts of the GRRMless seasons now are tainted. Cercei blowing up the Sept was incredible at the time because you were thinking she is going to regret doing that even if she has a momentary victory. In the end it amounted to nothing. Jon overcoming his bastard heritage to become king of the north is even more pointless because after all that he just ends up north of the wall anyway. Brans power reveals amount to Jack shit. Arya being a faceless man means nothing outside of her revenge on the Freys.
You can pinpoint when each character became useless.
For example, Bran's part in this story basically ended after Hodor. His character truly died in that cave. Like everyone else, he became just a prop to move a storyline or to dictate motivations to the other puppets because it surely wasn't coming naturally from the characters themselves
Basically while season 5 onward was bad it was salvageable. Season 8 was the point of no return and cemented all the bad things in the other seasons as definitely bad instead of questionably bad.
A side note to this -- that reveal works so well not only because it subverts expectations, but because it alters the whole frame of the show.
Seriously, go back and rewatch the first season after finishing the show. There's a tone of narrative work there that's never called out or commented on, yet serves to reinforce that reveal.
This Firm School Rejects article goes into it in-depth, but it's chock-full of spoilers.
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Personally I feel that the die was cast when season 7 ended. That's when I sat back and prepared myself for a messy season 8. When both the Lannisters and The Night King both survived into season 8, I knew there was never going to be enough time to tell both their stories.
By killing Jamie and Cersei in season 7 they could have saved season 8 for Dany going mad and defeating the WW. But that would make too much sense.
D&D can't hide forever, eventually they're going to have to answer questions
By killing Jamie and Cersei in season 7 they could have saved season 8 for Dany going mad and defeating the WW. But that would make too much sense.
D&D can't hide forever, eventually they're going to have to answer questions
This is absolutely correct. It's a damn shame that it runs the whole series.
It will join the ranks of How I met Your Mother in "shows which finales utterly ruin the entire show".
This is the part that stings the most. It became one of my favourite shows not just due to the main series but all of the world building and other material/media associated with it. Now the only thing that interests me is complaining about the show with no vested interest in rewatching it again. I intended to start the books once Martin had finished them but even that scenario is unlikely now (and Martin's glacial pace in finishing them is making that decision more probable).
She makes a lot of very good points. Wasn't familiar with her channel before (I really don't follow the YT scene past, well, Karak's reviews), but I'm going to check some of her other material as well.
Turning Tyrion into the most moral man in the universe derailed the entire story. He should have been executed when he allied with the slavers in season 6 but he was promoted to hand for literally no reason.
And it was incredibly lame it make Jon always right. In the books, there is a strong argument that he should have been assassinated. In the show, he never has to learn from any mistakes because he either doesn't make mistakes or isn't punished for them.
And it was incredibly lame it make Jon always right. In the books, there is a strong argument that he should have been assassinated. In the show, he never has to learn from any mistakes because he either doesn't make mistakes or isn't punished for them.
Not sure if this has been covered but the annoying part of Dany's ending is the buildup and "cover" was provided by D&D in season 6 already with Kinvara and the Rhollor fanatics. That plus GRRM's inclusion of the stallion that mounts the world prophecy. After the Long night, Dany should've been deluded into thinking she was prophesized to be the worlds messiah. Who could blame her? She woke dragons from stone, liberated slavers bay, and literally helped defeat the Great Other/night king himself.
It probably only needed a few more episodes to flesh out frankly. Jon killing her would be putting down a semi-justified in her mind (fueled by grief and her increased sense of being alone that they rushed) religious zealot who saw burning of KL as a purification of the ills of Westeros.
It probably only needed a few more episodes to flesh out frankly. Jon killing her would be putting down a semi-justified in her mind (fueled by grief and her increased sense of being alone that they rushed) religious zealot who saw burning of KL as a purification of the ills of Westeros.
LTTP, but that line killed me. Great video all around, and I agree with most of her points, although I think I might go back and watch the first four seasons again at some point, and then loudly proclaim "BOY, IT'S TOO BAD THEY NEVER MADE ANY MORE OF THESE."
all her vids are homeruns, but her Disney vids are especially good, i recommend the Hunchback of Notre Dame video
Not just fueling more of her messianic stuff with buildup, but the also needed to handle the battle itself a lot better. It wasn't very convincing that an unexpectedly trivial victory saw her just going "... oh shit, well, I guess I'll go evil now, that's my cue". If the battle was genuinely hard fought and she needed to cross moral lines to actually accomplish victory, her framing of it as an ends-justify-terrible-means type situation would have felt at least more plausible inside her character arc, and would have contrasted more naturally with Jon's far less compromising moral code (the kind that had got him and his adopted family into trouble historically). Doing terrible things in service of victory vs just getting victory handed to you on a platter and randomly wiping out surrendered soldier and civilians en masse because "lol targs".
After watching this video and thinking about it, it really does bother me more now that instead of making an interesting allegory that makes an honest and perhaps relevant take on the liberation and emancipation of oppressed peoples (with the added somewhat unique feature of a monarch being the one pursuing it), they instead made the tired "both sides bad"/ horseshoe theory that equates liberation movements with fascism.
I hadn't seen the script excerpt where Arya first sees the cool dragon warrior princess from her favorite childhood stories come to life and goes "Yep, tyrant!" and now I'm offended all over again.
In the lead-up to season 8 i used to tell myself that now with more time to prepare and a clear plan ahead maybe the writing will be better, but no, there was never any hope. Even being granted an extra decade to get this right wouldn't have saved anyone who writes that and thinks it's totally in character.
In the lead-up to season 8 i used to tell myself that now with more time to prepare and a clear plan ahead maybe the writing will be better, but no, there was never any hope. Even being granted an extra decade to get this right wouldn't have saved anyone who writes that and thinks it's totally in character.