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Midnight Jon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,161
Ohio
re: everyone who replied to me overnight, especially TarNaru33

i'm probably gonna wind up getting to full-throated M4A support by 2020 (and subsequently adding my individual activism to help counter all these health insurance/provider lobbyists) precisely for the reasons you gave - not really much of a point in going in halfway when the GOP's gonna find any excuse to fuck with it anyway

just gotta work through my weird blind spots first
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Just gonna leave this here so people can see through Kirblar's bullshit of "Oh the U.S. model is close to a lot of European countries we just need to tinker with it a little bit hehehe!""

VryM6iB.png


In virtually all of these "multi-payer" countries the government is still responsible for 75%+ of healthcare spending and private expenditures are no where close to what they are in the U.S.

This graph proves that the US healthcare system sucks and needs serious reform.

It's not clear to me that Kirblar disagrees with that? I think you're attributing an argument to him he is not making here. Kirblar is a neoliberal shill but he does not, so far as I know, believe that the US healthcare system is fine.

Note that Germany, on this chart, has a healthcare system built around a universal mandate, public options, an effective transfer payment system via payroll tax, and optional private insurance availability. It seems to be reasonably competitive with single-payer countries. Doesn't this show that multi-payer healthcare can also be very effective in constraining private healthcare expenditure?

The big takeaway from this is that America is exceptionally terrible. I think single-payer is probably better, but as this chart shows, nearly any sort of more universal coverage would represent a significant improvement. Unless the American problem is less about the specific system and more about issues unique to America, but it's tough to judge that here.
 

Ushiromiya

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
296
This graph proves that the US healthcare system sucks and needs serious reform.

It's not clear to me that Kirblar disagrees with that? I think you're attributing an argument to him he is not making here. Kirblar is a neoliberal shill but he does not, so far as I know, believe that the US healthcare system is fine.

Note that Germany, on this chart, has a healthcare system built around a universal mandate, public options, an effective transfer payment system via payroll tax, and optional private insurance availability. It seems to be reasonably competitive with single-payer countries. Doesn't this show that multi-payer healthcare can also be very effective in constraining private healthcare expenditure?

The big takeaway from this is that America is exceptionally terrible. I think single-payer is probably better, but as this chart shows, nearly any sort of more universal coverage would represent a significant improvement. Unless the American problem is less about the specific system and more about issues unique to America, but it's tough to judge that here.

The German government is responsible for 77% of the countries' total health expenditures. 85%+ of the population is covered under public healthcare. You are not even allowed to buy private insurance in Germany unless you make more than 60,000 euros a year, everyone below that threshold is automatically enrolled in a public plan.

In regards to cost-distribution and public vs. private coverage, their model is far closer to the NHS than it is to America's Frankenstein system.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Just gonna leave this here so people can see through Kirblar's bullshit of "Oh the U.S. model is close to a lot of European countries we just need to tinker with it a little bit hehehe!""

VryM6iB.png

In virtually all of these "multi-payer" countries the government is still responsible for 75%+ of healthcare spending and private expenditures are no where close to what they are in the U.S.
The US Government already pays for 50% of public health care expenditures: https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...e-sector-spending-triple-comparable-countries
Don't forget, we absolutely have to protect those precious insurance workers In Hartford making 100k a year who could easily transition to a white collar job in another field. Nevermind that we already expect everyone else to move or retrain when progress renders their respective industries obsolete, but the private insurance sector is clearly a sacred beast that must be insulated from disruptive change at all costs, even though its a massive drain on our society's resources and is repsonsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans every year!

But those coal miners in West Virginia and factory workers in Ohio? Fuck em!
You are still going to need health care admins whether they're in the public or private sector. Deliberately making it so you fire a bunch in one area only to hire a bunch somewhere else within a very short timeframe is a bad idea, yes, because while a move to a new paradigm is disruptive, deliberately doubling down on the disruption by adding in unneccessary friction is bad. (And yes, the move will result in fewer health admins overall as reforms are made as things should simplify. This is fine, it's not like they can't find a job doing something else.)

You are still going to need health admins in a world where you're in a public/private multi-payer system providing universal coverage. You're not going to need coal workers in that world though, because of other forms of energy being cleaner and more efficient.
 

Ushiromiya

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
296
When the alternative is letting type-1 diabetics die because they can't afford their insulin, I'm not going to shed any tears for the insurance workers who will be temporarily inconvenienced. We did not ban the sale of cars because it would put carriage-drivers out of business. We cannot treat the insurance sector with some kind of special privilege. Doing so is justifying the unnecessary deaths of 450,000+ Americans every year.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I do not think Bismarckian reform is possible in the US. Yes, their model works, but the turn of the 19th century is not the first decades of the 21st and the chancellor of the German empire is not the President of the United States. The health care industry is now an entrenched, powerful socioeconomic force and to contend with them you'd need a level of executive power unseen since FDR. Consider how quickly Obama was painted as a dictator by the right even though the left only saw a milquetoast corporate apologist. You need several levels more aggression in all three branches of government to achieve this kind of reform, which would take decades to accomplish owing to the American political pendulum, and this is before you consider the self sabotage by Dem sellouts.

The senate will have been dismantled before we mandate away for profit health insurance.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
When the alternative is letting type-1 diabetics die because they can't afford their insulin, I'm not going to shed any tears for the insurance workers who will be temporarily inconvenienced. We did not ban the sale of cars because it would put carriage-drivers out of business. We cannot treat the insurance sector with some kind of special privilege. Doing so is justifying the unnecessary deaths of 450,000+ Americans every year.
Price gouging from drug manufacturers is obviously terrible and needs to be addressed. This is also not directly an insurance issue. (edit: it woud be helped, but there's specific issues with "generic" drug pricing that are massive issues that need to be address specifically)

It's not treating it with "special priviilege", it's treating it in an appropriate manner that tries to cause as little unneeded friction in the process as possibile. Not deliberately throw a bunch in there because of grievances against white-collar workers.
I do not think Bismarckian reform is possible in the US. Yes, their model works, but the turn of the 19th century is not the first decades of the 21st and the chancellor of the German empire is not the President of the United States. The health care industry is now an entrenched, powerful socioeconomic force and to contend with them you'd need a level of executive power unseen since FDR. Consider how quickly Obama was painted as a dictator by the right even though the left only saw a milquetoast corporate apologist. You need several levels more aggression in all three branches of government to achieve this kind of reform, which would take decades to accomplish owing to the American political pendulum, and this is before you consider the self sabotage by Dem sellouts.

The senate will have been dismantled before we mandate away for profit health insurance.
If you think reform into a similar that more closely resembles the US's current system is impossible, I don't see how a reform that goes even further to straight up nationalization (and something that historically the Supreme Court has usually blocked) is in any way shape or form, "more possible."
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Neither is "possible" within the present context of America governance. This is why I believe in revolution. Single payer is more valuable to me than multi payer because it is more revolutionary. To enact revolution people must be willing to speak of it.

And if we're just going to bet on our own preferred Hail Marys I'm going to bet on the bigger one than the smaller one. Why dilute utopia? Why dash your hopes before you even speak them out loud?
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
The German government is responsible for 77% of the countries' total health expenditures. 85%+ of the population is covered under public healthcare. You are not even allowed to buy private insurance in Germany unless you make more than 60,000 euros a year, everyone below that threshold is automatically enrolled in a public plan.

In regards to cost-distribution and public vs. private coverage, their model is far closer to the NHS than it is to America's Frankenstein system.

This can all be true without impacting in any way the question of what the ideal healthcare delivery system is for Americans, which is, as far as I can tell, the specific point you were responding to.

I understand that you want to aggressively argue with somebody suggesting that the American healthcare system is fine. Me too! That person is not in this thread.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
I don't understand why people are attempting to turn this into a debate on policy here. This is not about an actual legitimate debate on policy. The point of the article is lobbyists from corporate healthcare institutions coming to Washington to influence politicians to help shut down any movement on healthcare and especially the biggest policy decision that could affect the monopoly of the corporate healthcare industry, which is the main issue regarding healthcare in America.

Talk about it! Why is it that people just deflect from money in politics on literally every issue?

Nobody is talking about it because we all agree on it.

No one is going to defend that, the issue then becomes what are the objectives of those lobby groups.

It's going to always lead to a debate on policy because the objective of those lobby groups is to influence or outright stop certain policies.

All we can do about that is vote and do our best to tell our political leaders that we don't approve. Many of us have lives that are too on the rails to afford to do more.
 

Ushiromiya

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
296
This can all be true without impacting in any way the question of what the ideal healthcare delivery system is for Americans, which is, as far as I can tell, the specific point you were responding to.

I understand that you want to aggressively argue with somebody suggesting that the American healthcare system is fine. Me too! That person is not in this thread.

Kirblar's argument against single-payer healthcare is that it would cause massive contraction of the Private insurance industry and lead to job loss.

But even in his cited example of Germany as the model for healthcare reform in America, only 11% of their population has private insurance. (comparatively, 72% of Americans have private insurance, and 8% of Britons have private insurance). So you're looking at the private insurance industry seeing massive contraction either way, and if that's the case, why not go with Single-Payer, which would more easily ensure universal coverage, be quicker to implement, and provide more stable coverage by eliminating provider networks?
 
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Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Nobody is talking about it because we all agree on it.

I can't really say i agree with the sentiment that everyone agrees on the corrupting influence of money even being a problem...just from what i've seen unfortunately of the amount of people who think that the issue is a purely partisan one that only matters when they can nail the GOP on it.

That's why there is so much push back from identifying it, calling it out and shining a light on it in a pure fashion. What i think is, there are people who will use the issue to cynically advance the side of the argument they are on without actually looking at the inherent problem.

Kirblar's argument against single-payer healthcare is that it would cause massive contraction of the Private insurance industry and lead to job loss.
?

And even if we were to take that viewpoint into pure consideration territory, every industry looses jobs and is eventually replaced when something better comes along, or that's what should happen in an actual capitalist society. What we have now is a fake capitalism which monopolistic forces are being artificially held up beyond other competitors due to their lobbying might and capital.

If one worries about jobs, rather than shunning the better ideas, perhaps retraining programs would be better served as a solution.

That's like saying trying to get rid of any big industry would result in massive job loss. THat's obvious, but sometimes that is neccesary when it comes to gaining sustainability and a healthier economy down the line. WHat we have now in many areas is the exact opposite of sustainable.
 
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TheLucasLite

Member
Aug 27, 2018
1,446
I love how the moment Liberals throw on their lanyards, suddenly radical change becomes impossible because of budget problems and the dang deficit. It's almost like we need to, I dunno, throw away the capitalist framework and adopt something else? Instead of trying to solve problems like this solely within the rotten shambling zombie of neoliberalism.
 

Vixdean

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,855
The thing people need to understand is that there is no historical analog to a theoretical attempt to socialize the entire US healthcare system. It's 18% of our GDP, no other country's health care industry was anywhere close to that when they implemented UHC. The closest was Switzerland, which was at something like 9% at the time they implemented their system, and it's basically Obamacare with automatic enrollment instead of a mandate. The rest of the big ones we talk about (Germany, France, Canada, etc...) were all low single digits. It's a whole different ball game here, you simply cannot up and seize nearly 1/5 of a nation's GDP without serious downstream consequences.

I want UHC as much as anyone, but we have to be honest about the obstacles to it here, and stop trying to shoehorn remedies based on ideology instead of reality.
 
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ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
I can't really say i agree with the sentiment that everyone agrees on the corrupting influence of money even being a problem...just from what i've seen unfortunately of the amount of people who think that the issue is a purely partisan one that only matters when they can nail the GOP on it.
The thing "everyone agrees on" is that the US massively overspends on healthcare. Not anything about the corrupting influence of money. Do you read the posts you reply to?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Kirblar's argument against single-payer healthcare is that it would cause massive contraction of the Private insurance industry and lead to job loss.

But even in his cited example of Germany as the model for healthcare reform in America, only 11% of their population has private insurance. (comparatively, 72% of Americans have private insurance, and 8% of Britons have private insurance). So you're looking at the private insurance industry seeing massive contraction either way, and if that's the case, why not go with Single-Payer, which would more easily ensure universal coverage, be quicker to implement, and provide more stable coverage by eliminating provider networks?
That is not my argument. My argument is that immediately ending private insurance coverage and replacing it with government insurance coverage requires dismantling private insurance and creating a new organization in the span of ~3 years. That's just not something that's achievable- things take time to set up, get running, hire and train people, etc. The US HC system is massive and people's well-beings rely on that current infrastructure. A public option both provides that starting point for the infrastucture and acts as an implicit threat of de facto single payer (patients moving to it) in the future if they don't shape up.

My issue is not with job loss. Any reform efforts will inevitably lead to job loss through paperwork/complexity reduction in the long run. This is good, there's a massive amount of admin bloat in the US HC system.
I love how the moment Liberals throw on their lanyards, suddenly radical change becomes impossible because of budget problems and the dang deficit. It's almost like we need to, I dunno, throw away the capitalist framework and adopt something else? Instead of trying to solve problems like this solely within the rotten shambling zombie of neoliberalism.
When there's a workable solution that exists within the capitalist framework that we can use as a template that's closer to our current setup than any other, yes, that's what we should be working towards.

And yes, states like CO/VT have vetoed Single Payer at the state level because of the cost. Because the current system has those costs baked in elsewher,e and suddenly trying to redistribute the costs all at once would be a spectacularly ugly process.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Kirblar's argument against single-payer healthcare is that it would cause massive contraction of the Private insurance industry and lead to job loss.

But even in his cited example of Germany as the model for healthcare reform in America, only 11% of their population has private insurance. (comparatively, 72% of Americans have private insurance, with the rest covered under medicaid and medicare). So you're looking at the private insurance industry seeing massive contraction either way, and if that's the case, why not go with Single-Payer, which would more easily ensure universal coverage, be quicker to implement, and provide more stable coverage by eliminating provider networks?

I figured this is what you were saying, but didnt want to impose. I agree with it completely, I don't see the point of avoiding single payer under the guise of trying stim repercussions because transitioning will have this anyway.

Kirblar know no matter what policy decision we take, the GOP will try to get rid of it anyways, so I personally do not get that argument either.

I can't really say i agree with the sentiment that everyone agrees on the corrupting influence of money even being a problem...just from what i've seen unfortunately of the amount of people who think that the issue is a purely partisan one that only matters when they can nail the GOP on it.

That's why there is so much push back from identifying it, calling it out and shining a light on it in a pure fashion. What i think is, there are people who will use the issue to cynically advance the side of the argument they are on without actually looking at the inherent problem.

Some probably do not appreciate the significance of lobbyists and money on our politics because U.S been this way for a long while now with it getting worse. Many do not even know U.S had a gilded age and that we are close to repeating it or what an oligarchy looks like (not saying U.S is one, but the tremendous influence the rich has resemble one).

You do have a point with some people for example not seeing the issue of Democrats taking donations from big companies as a way to "level the playing field", but none who believes this are present in this thread as far as I am aware.

So far, everyone here has already demonstrated disdain of unrestricted lobbying, some more strongly than needed understandably.

The problem I think is we dont actually know down to details how to deal with it. We know there is a problem, but what solutions are there to this? The above conversation shows we simply aren't well versed on the subject to converse confidently on what can be done like we are on other policies, hence I think we all just lash out.

I should note I am mainly talking about the people here in this thread. Though, even the public is wary of money influencing politics.

And yes, states like CO/VT have vetoed Single Payer at the state level because of the cost. Because the current system has those costs baked in elsewher,e and suddenly trying to redistribute the costs all at once would be a spectacularly ugly process.

States shouldn't be trying to do this anyways and even in a multi-payer system it would require tax increases.
 
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Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
The thing "everyone agrees on" is that the US massively overspends on healthcare. Not anything about the corrupting influence of money. Do you read the posts you reply to?

the post i was replying to was replying directly to my post about money in politics and saying "everyone agrees, that's why they don't talk about it". Which i then disagreed with. The question i should be asking you is if YOU read the posts your replying to?
 

Ushiromiya

Alt-account
Banned
Dec 6, 2018
296
A public option both provides that starting point for the infrastucture and acts as an implicit threat of de facto single payer (patients moving to it) in the future if they don't shape up.

This is assuming that insurance companies and providers do not aggressively collude to sabotage such an option from the jump. Public insurance is functionally useless (regardless of its affordability or benefits coverage) if no doctor or hospital is willing to accept it. We already see this same scenario with medicaid.

The status quo while harmful to patients is immensely enriching for private insurers AND healthcare providers. They will not allow the government to get their foot in the door in the first place because it will inevitably lead to less $$$$ for them.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
The thing people need to understand is that there is no historical analog to a theoretical attempt to socialize the entire US healthcare system. It's 18% of our GDP, no other country's health care industry was anywhere close to that when they implemented UHC. The closest was Switzerland, which was at something like 9% at the time they implemented their system, and it's basically Obamacare with automatic enrollment instead of a mandate. The rest of the big ones we talk about (Germany, France, Canada, etc...) were all low single digits. It's a whole different ball game here, you simply cannot up and seize nearly 1/5 of a nation's GDP without serious downstream consequences.

I want UHC as much as anyone, but we have to be honest about the obstacles to it here, and stop trying to shoehorn remedies based on ideology instead of reality.

You're right, there is no benchmark, however, it can be argued it can be done while mitigating the consequences.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
That 18% figure gives even me pause but...

Any gradual deflation of the healthcare industry risks being derailed by another Trump. Not only are we racing against the onset of ecodisaster, we also have only 2-4 years of reliability (this is assuming Dems are all unified which they are not). There is no hope for a long term solution here. You are trying to leverage time we do not have.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
Planned Parenthood lobbyists clearly are imposing a lack of rights on others.

The right of a public or private person or entity to lobby their representation is a core function of democracy. If you don't want your representatives to be able to listen to other people and be influenced by them, the "are you actually interested in Democracy" question comes next.

America isn't a democracy in the first place, so entertaining that question in its current state is like tasting farts in the wind.

Always been a country for the few at the expense of the many, which has only been compounded with cultish love for money over the real world.

When "wealth is worth" this is how you get an America on this planet. A genuine plague to human life, marketing itself as the most prosperous place in the known universe.
 

Tracygill

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
1,853
The Left
The intercept exposed a health care industry battle plan for medicare for all a couple of weeks ago:
https://static.theintercept.com/amp/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry.html

KXyThOg.jpg


"The campaign has worked with advertising agencies to draw up a series of messages to convince select audiences. Several of the messages, categorized as "positive," are dedicated to educating the public on more minimal reforms that do not include expanding Medicare. Other messages, categorized as "persuasion" and "aggressive," are designed to instill fear about what could happen if "Medicare for All" passes."
 
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Oct 27, 2017
993
The thing people need to understand is that there is no historical analog to a theoretical attempt to socialize the entire US healthcare system. It's 18% of our GDP, no other country's health care industry was anywhere close to that when they implemented UHC...
That 18% figure gives even me pause but...
It's important to keep in mind that although the Senate bill (S. 1804) is indeed less radical/comprehensive than the House bill (H.R. 676), neither of the two single-payer bills comes close to an attempt to 'socialize the entire healthcare system':
Is this 'socialized medicine'? No. In socialized medicine systems, hospitals are owned by the government and doctors are salaried public employees. Although socialized medicine works well for our Veterans Administration, and has worked well for some countries like England, this is not the same as national health insurance. A single-payer national health program, by contrast, is social insurance like American Medicare.

What is single payer? Single-payer national health insurance is a system in which a single public or quasi-public agency organizes health care financing, but the delivery of care remains largely in private hands. Under a single-payer system, all residents of the U.S. would be covered for all medically necessary services, including doctor, hospital, preventive, long-term care, mental health, reproductive health care, dental, vision, prescription drug and medical supply costs...

Is there any support for this approach in Congress? Support in the House and Senate is at an all-time high. The Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, H.R. 676, would establish an American single-payer health insurance system, publicly financed and privately delivered, that builds on the existing Medicare program. H.R. 676 has been introduced in multiple sessions of Congress by former Rep. John Conyers Jr. of Michigan. In 2017, it had 120 co-sponsors, a majority of the House Democratic caucus. On the Senate side, Sen. Bernie Sanders has introduced the Medicare for All Act of 2017, S. 1804, which had 16 original co-sponsors. PNHP has welcomed Sanders' bill, but notes it could be strengthened by establishing global budgets for hospitals, covering long-term care, eliminating all prescription copays, and banning investor-owned health facilities...

Link: http://www.pnhp.org/sites/default/files/faq_2018.pdf
Single-payer reform is in the news—and in the U.S. House and Senate. One hundred twenty-three Congresspeople have signed on as co-sponsors of H.R. 676, the single-payer legislation in House of Representatives, and 16 Senators have formally endorsed S.1804, the Senate version. (Disclosure: H.R. 676 was closely modeled on the Physicians for a National Health Program reform proposal published in JAMA, for which we served as lead authors).

While both bills would cover all Americans under a single, tax-funded insurance program, they prescribe different provider payment strategies. The Senate version largely adopts Medicare's current payment mechanisms; the House bill's is modeled on Canada's single-payer program, also called "Medicare," which pays hospitals global budgets (much as a fire department is paid in the U.S.) and sharply constrains opportunities for investor-owned care [...]

In contrast, the House bill would abolish per-patient billing by hospitals and other institutions, and its global budget payments would cover only operating costs; hospitals would be prohibited from retaining surpluses, and capital investments would be funded through separate government grants. The bill would also explicitly proscribe payments to investor-owned facilities, and it calls for their conversion to non-profit status financed by issuing bonds [...]

In sum, the financial viability of a single-payer reform turns on cutting administrative costs and minimizing incentives for financial gaming. Maintaining Medicare's current payment strategies, as under S.1804, would be substantially costlier than adopting the non-profit global-budgeting strategy used in several other nations [...] The House single-payer bill envisions a buyout of the investor-owned facilities needed to provide care under the single-payer system, while the Senate version would leave them in current hands.

Proponents of the House approach acknowledge that many non-profit health care organizations have drifted far from their charitable roots. However, they cite evidence that for-profit providers (including hospitals, dialysis centers, nursing homes, home care agencies, and hospices) provide inferior care at inflated prices (see, for instance here, here, here, here and here) and are more likely to bend care to profitability (see here, here, here and here). For-profit hospitals spend less on nurses and other clinical aspects of care, but more on administration and financial management; for-profit chains have often been cited for questionable business practices and have been repeatedly implicated in large scale fraud (see here, here, hereand here)[...]

Link: https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20181116.732860/full/
 
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samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
A single question there, isn't the Veteran Administration notorious for underserving vets? Or is that just Veteran Affaires and Administration is something else?
 

AlwaysSalty

The Fallen
Nov 12, 2017
1,442
This is so fucked, I guess in the end greed is the real enemy. It doesn't really matter if they are democrat or republican. What they need to pass is a policy that gets rid of whatever loopholes the nra, big pharma, and the oil companies are using to corrupt our government. A better solution would be to clean house.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
without serious downstream consequences.
https://alexnpress.com/2018/12/07/waiting-for-my-number/

I am trying one last time to get mental health treatment. At least, that's what I said two months ago to trick myself into following through on it. Suppressing doubts about whether this latest attempt would work, I looked up my health insurance's list of local mental health care providers. The first few weren't taking new patients. The next two said they didn't take my insurance, even when I said I was sure they did. The next one was a hospital. The receptionist said there was no room for new patients. I told her that I could wait if needed and no, I am not suicidal, but I need help. She found me an appointment in two months' time.

So I am here, making a good-faith shot of it, answering the psychiatrist's questions.

We get through all of them. After a brief silence, she says she cannot prescribe me medication. When I ask why, she informs me that I am an alcoholic, and antidepressants do not work with alcohol. I say I am aware of the "don't drink on meds" rule, and if it's really the case that the medication will not work if I drink, then so be it, I'll drink lemonade at parties. "I am desperate, and willing to do what it takes to get better," I restate.

"You could not quit drinking if you tried, and you will not try," she says. She has known me for twenty minutes at most. "I will likely recommend you get addiction treatment, which entails three appointments a week, and then you can get on an antidepressant."

These are the "downstream consequences" American society faces every day propping up this rotten industry. We cry with indignation at every mass shooting but shrug our shoulders ineffectually as the insurance industry tortures and kills us in plain view. That lobbyists murder with words and money rather than bullets might absolve them in the eyes of the law, but every preventable death that occurs under their watch I hold them personally responsible for.

Read four and five and skimmed the rest. I get the picture, I just fell for another conservative soundbite.
 
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Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Medicare for All advocates just received an early holiday present: a new study from the Political Economy Research Institute (PERI) at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst finds that single-payer health care will save the US $5.1 trillion over a decade while drastically cutting working-class Americans' health spending. It's the most robust, comprehensive study yet produced on Medicare for All, which has long been in need of easily citable research.

The study analyzes Sen. Bernie Sanders's Medicare for All Act from top to bottom, elaborating on several key aspects of the bill, including what the transition to a fully public, comprehensive, free-at-the-point-of-use health care system might look like and what impact the program will have on US residents.

Most significantly, it answers the most common question single-payer advocates face: "How will we pay for it?"
The findings are impressively thorough.

Reaching nearly two hundred pages in length, the report has been praised by health policy experts for its sound methods and clarity. Alison Galvani of the Yale School of Public Health predicts it will become recognized as the "seminal analysis" of Medicare for All.

Long plagued by accusations of ambiguity and impracticality, Medicare for All now has credible economic research its advocates can cite to supplement their core arguments: that single-payer health care will be a major working-class victory, that it will save lives, and that it will represent a seismic shift toward a more just, solidaristic society.

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/medicare-for-all-study-peri-sanders

The question has nothing to do with the policy. It has to do with whether or not we have the political will to topple corruption in our system.
 
Oct 27, 2017
993
The intercept exposed a health care industry battle plan for medicare for all a couple of weeks ago:
https://static.theintercept.com/amp/medicare-for-all-healthcare-industry.html
"The campaign has worked with advertising agencies to draw up a series of messages to convince select audiences. Several of the messages, categorized as "positive," are dedicated to educating the public on more minimal reforms that do not include expanding Medicare. Other messages, categorized as "persuasion" and "aggressive," are designed to instill fear about what could happen if "Medicare for All" passes."
"For industry opponents of expanded government health insurance, there are two main challenges. One is combatting growing public support for the idea. The other is shaping elite opinion within the Beltway."
Interesting, hadn't seen that piece. Thanks.
...I get the picture, I just fell for another conservative soundbite.
Notably, part of the challenge for the lobbyists may be that some of the old soundbites aren't working like they used to, as the piece Tracygill posted suggests:

...Adam Gaffney, president-elect of Physicians for a National Health Program, a national coalition that advocates in favor of "Medicare for All," said he is not surprised by the messaging. "What we're seeing is the wages of success: With single payer on the rise, it was only a matter of time before the insurance companies, big pharma, and other big-money groups came out swinging," said Gaffney, who also serves as an instructor at Harvard Medical School. "The smear of 'socialized medicine' has been used a thousand times and has lost its bite," he added...
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/medicare-for-all-study-peri-sanders
Medicare for All advocates just received an early holiday present: a new study from the Political Economy Research Institute (PERI) at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst finds that single-payer health care will save the US $5.1 trillion over a decade while drastically cutting working-class Americans' health spending. It's the most robust, comprehensive study yet produced on Medicare for All, which has long been in need of easily citable research.

The study analyzes Sen. Bernie Sanders's Medicare for All Act from top to bottom, elaborating on several key aspects of the bill, including what the transition to a fully public, comprehensive, free-at-the-point-of-use health care system might look like and what impact the program will have on US residents.

Most significantly, it answers the most common question single-payer advocates face: "How will we pay for it?"
The findings are impressively thorough.

Reaching nearly two hundred pages in length, the report has been praised by health policy experts for its sound methods and clarity. Alison Galvani of the Yale School of Public Health predicts it will become recognized as the "seminal analysis" of Medicare for All.

Long plagued by accusations of ambiguity and impracticality, Medicare for All now has credible economic research its advocates can cite to supplement their core arguments: that single-payer health care will be a major working-class victory, that it will save lives, and that it will represent a seismic shift toward a more just, solidaristic society.
The question has nothing to do with the policy. It has to do with whether or not we have the political will to topple corruption in our system.
I had read about the PERI study elsewhere, but that was a good short overview by the Jacobin writer. I notice that the same writer (Tim Higginbotham) has offered a related perspective, at Vox:
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/20...-copycat-plans-water-down-left-center-sanders
By Tim Higginbotham and Chris Middleman Jul 13, 2018, 9:50am EDT
...Part of their agenda involved watering down what "Medicare-for-all" means. It is very important that Medicare-for-all advocates resist these efforts and clarify exactly what we're fighting for... as public support for Medicare-for-all rises, establishment think tanks and lobbyists are floating proposals designed to capitalize on its momentum while diluting its content... Clear, honest messaging will help us build on this popularity and prevent lookalike proposals from sowing confusion... Any attempt by pundits or lobbyists to muddy the waters around this proposal is an obvious attempt to co-opt the campaign's momentum with an eye toward weakening future legislation and protecting the interests of health-industry profiteers...
 
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