-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Loot box legislation introduced in Hawaii
- Thread starter TangoAlphaLima
- Start date
It strikes me as a pretty willful mischaracterization, made with the knowledge that people will hear it and construe the situation as something far more nefarious and damaging. No better than when Jack Thompson referred to FPS games as "murder simulators".
I really don't think this is true. The push to get the ESRB to rate loot boxes as gambling was just because that specific tag gets an AO rating (effectively making it illegal in the States).
To say it another way, if the ESRB said it was gambling but then moved gambling from AO to M, I don't think the response would be "cool."
Yup, exactly the same. Highlighting predatory money schemes around addiction with a peppering of highly cynical/critical language is exactly the same as implying games cause people to kill others.
Well, tough? It might be for the ESRB to start using their labelling and rating scales a bit better to support the market being better informed.
Sony, MS, Nintendo and retail stores make their own choices about stocking AO games, that might need to be looked at going forward.
All in, banning means not being able to sell, being able to be sold with conditions isn't banning.
I dunno it seems pretty fair. I mean Battlefront is WORSE than an online casino. In an online casino you has a chance to get your money back or make money... In Battlefront you get virtual goods that will be taken away by EA when they see fit.
I hope to see more of this in the future, gambling addiction via lootboxes is a very real thing and I as well have dumped money chasing after a stupid item only to end up with an empty wallet, a pile of rubbish, and regret.
Public Service Announcement: An analogy is not an equivalence
You can think the guy is doing good work, but just don't claim he's above sensationalism or obfuscation. When he says something that's intended to deceive, overstate, or confuse the issue, don't handwave it away with "Oh, that's just a little bit of hyperbole."
Potential losses at a casino are far far greater, by orders of magnitude. Being able to "earn your money back" is a gambler's fallacy that only makes the addiction hook into them harder. The more you lose, the more difficult it becomes to break even.
You should probably get more context behind this legislator compared to Jack Thompson. It may help so you don't make these types of false comparisons in the future! Dude is not a "but what about the kids?" type.
You used words like 'better' and 'than'. That's a comparison. I think it's fine to point out when it's false.
Much ado about nothing.
Casinos and gambling are regulated and you at least have the chance to get SOMETHING back for your money. You get nothing for something with lootboxes.
so allow people to buy in game currency that they then spend on loot boxes. Tech they will not be spending real money on loot boxes
I don't believe legislation, regulation or any number of words and policies will actually affect anything in a meaningful way.
People who do not exercise personal responsibility will continue to not exercise personal responsibility.
People who do not exercise personal responsibility will continue to not exercise personal responsibility.
Buying in game currency is more pay to win then having to buy a separate currency.
OP
OP
https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/13/17007830/hawaii-loot-crate-laws-ea-star-wars-battlefront-2
You're welcome, Polygon.
You're welcome, Polygon.
California introduced legislation regarding video game microtransactions today, as well. Not strictly loot boxes, but spending real-world currency to unlock content. All it would require is the manufacturer to put a notice on the physical box.
Though this probably would mean an M rating, punishing loot box games with an AO rating would 100% end the practice then & there.
Cell phone games usually aren't rated by the ESRB, so you would have a weird dichotomy there.
And the ESRB politicizing the AO rating wouldn't be a good precedent.
Last time I checked Steam, Appstore and Playstore have IAP labels. "In-App Purchases" and "Offers in-app purchases". Like does this legislation change anything?
A current update:
We're reaching the midpoint of the legislative session, where bills are either passed on to the opposite side of the Legislature, or die in committee. As of today, both of the House version of the two bills (HB2686, prohibiting the sale of lootbox games to minors, and HB2727, requiring disclosure of lootboxes for video game publishers) have apparently died in committee. 2727 seemed like it was going to make it out, the last action yesterday suggested it was to be passed, unamended on third reading, but the deadline for House bills passed without a vote so that should be the end of it.
On the Senate side, both SB3024 and SB3025 are scheduled for a final vote on Tuesday. If those votes pass, those two bills will head over to the House for its approval.
We're reaching the midpoint of the legislative session, where bills are either passed on to the opposite side of the Legislature, or die in committee. As of today, both of the House version of the two bills (HB2686, prohibiting the sale of lootbox games to minors, and HB2727, requiring disclosure of lootboxes for video game publishers) have apparently died in committee. 2727 seemed like it was going to make it out, the last action yesterday suggested it was to be passed, unamended on third reading, but the deadline for House bills passed without a vote so that should be the end of it.
On the Senate side, both SB3024 and SB3025 are scheduled for a final vote on Tuesday. If those votes pass, those two bills will head over to the House for its approval.
If they can't get disclosure of winning odds passed the whole industry deserves to burn. Such a basic bit of pro-consumer transparency and we are relying on scraps from China.
Tuesday's session has completed. In the end, HB2727 somehow resurrected itself and passed third reading, and is now headed to the Senate. SB3024 and SB3025 also both passed third reading, and are headed to the House. For the next 4-6 weeks, the bills will go through the same set of votes, readings and committee hearings, but in the opposite side of the Legislature from where they originated. So, come back later.
On an interesting note, HB2727 and SB3024 were amended in committee to not take effect until July 1, 2050 to "facilitate further discussion". If that start date isn't changed before the full Legislature votes on the final bills, those two bills are effectively defanged and useless. SB3025, the Senate version of the bill requiring disclosure of lootboxes, was not amended with the 2050 start date so that bill is still firmly in play.
HB2686 is dead for this year.
On an interesting note, HB2727 and SB3024 were amended in committee to not take effect until July 1, 2050 to "facilitate further discussion". If that start date isn't changed before the full Legislature votes on the final bills, those two bills are effectively defanged and useless. SB3025, the Senate version of the bill requiring disclosure of lootboxes, was not amended with the 2050 start date so that bill is still firmly in play.
HB2686 is dead for this year.
Well this is pleasant news! I was worried things would be dead in the water after the last update that the bills failed to pass. I think this is worthy of a new thread to be honest.
I guess I personally don't see the point in the hyperbole. If the issue is as serious as Chris Lee thinks it Is(im not saying it isn't here)what is the point of overstating the scenario for the sake of making a point? If it's that much of an issue them hyperbole shouldn't be neceasary in my opinion.
This is only the halfway point of the session, and a lot can happen between now and the end. If any of the bills pass, then I think we'll need a new thread.
Uh.... Is this normal or did ESA throw microtransactions at people?
Well I still think its important to draw attention to the progress made so I went ahead and made a new thread. Hopefully it gets some folks to contact their own representation and draw more attention to the legislation.
This won't stop anything, even if everything passes.
What you will see is an obfuscation of the randomization instead of tying it directly to point of purchase.
Designers will just pass the randomized elements to acquisition or create randomization in access of elements with standardized prices.
There's no stopping this train.
Edit - to expand on this, imagine a scenario where you can face off against a powerful enemy by buying a token. The difficulty of the enemy is randomized, and based on how fast you can beat him, you get a better reward. His health is directly dictated by similar drop rates to loot boxes.
Or even simpler - the enemy is the same every time, but he has a random chance of dropping an item. You are paying for a standardized item (FIGHT CHANCE), but the payout on completion ("skill based" in the loosest of terms) is random.
You could even do this by matching players up against other players based on their skill level. It's "randomized" how hard your opponent is, but you only get so many chances to do so and win rewards. If you want more chances, pay up.
This will only make things more insidious.
What you will see is an obfuscation of the randomization instead of tying it directly to point of purchase.
Designers will just pass the randomized elements to acquisition or create randomization in access of elements with standardized prices.
There's no stopping this train.
Edit - to expand on this, imagine a scenario where you can face off against a powerful enemy by buying a token. The difficulty of the enemy is randomized, and based on how fast you can beat him, you get a better reward. His health is directly dictated by similar drop rates to loot boxes.
Or even simpler - the enemy is the same every time, but he has a random chance of dropping an item. You are paying for a standardized item (FIGHT CHANCE), but the payout on completion ("skill based" in the loosest of terms) is random.
You could even do this by matching players up against other players based on their skill level. It's "randomized" how hard your opponent is, but you only get so many chances to do so and win rewards. If you want more chances, pay up.
This will only make things more insidious.
Last edited:
They should do the same for F2P gacha games on iOS/Android. All randomized reward purchases are fucking gambling.
In which case people will turn away form these games as they increasingly grow more and more into money farms instead of entertainment and big budget development will start to collapse under the weight of its own inflated budgets. I'd personally welcome such an industry re-calibration. I think its frankly been long overdue. These large publishers currently exercise far too much control over the industry at large.
I mean, that's what pro-loot box people say about the current situation . That there's no need for regulation because the market will decide what's good or bad.
But people say this legislation is necessary because loot boxes are beyond market forces because they prey on psychological weaknesses and exploit children. I'm saying passing this legislation won't stop the predatory practices, it'll obfuscate them and make them worse.
I'm not saying that no one should care about the exploition, I'm saying that this likely won't help. Pandora's box is wide open.
Fair point but I think once we start to see publishers try to dance around regulation and come up with ever more disgusting ways to skirt it it will turn people away from those games. As of now the main issue is that people are not aware such practices are in the games they are buying until after the fact and should regulation get passed there will be a wider awareness of these tactics in the mainstream which will draw more scrutiny of whatever tactics they try to employ to skirt around those regulations. Furthermore I think the more these companies dig deeper into these holes the less fun their games actually end up being for the consumer. Instead they become farms with tedious tasks to complete. But then again Farmville was absurdly popular and profitable so who knows.