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Deleted member 3812

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Oct 25, 2017
8,821
The Baltimore Sun is reporting that Louis C.K. is coming to the Baltimore metro area this weekend on a "comeback tour" however they are reporting that this tour is speaking to larger issues about how to move forward culturally following landmark changes of #MeToo:


C.K.'s comeback tour speaks to larger issues about how to move forward culturally following the landmark changes — and career downfalls — of the #MeToo movement.

"I think this is a case that is emblematic of a wider challenge that we're facing," said Michele Decker, an associate professor at Johns Hopkins' Bloomberg School of Public Health specializing in social epidemiology and gender-based violence. "Now that people are being recognized for harassment and sexual misconduct we are faced with, how do we move forward? How do we reintegrate perpetrators?"

That's a question also on the mind of Margaret E. Johnson, law professor and co-director at the Center on Applied Feminism at the University of Baltimore School of Law. "We're not going to cancel all these people and shun them forever and exclude them on an island," she said.

Johnson wonders if society is ready to forgive perpetrators like Louis C.K. "What does society see as the debt that needs to be paid for us to forgive when there's no criminal case brought?" she asked.

True atonement would require even more, Johnson says. C.K. needs to face, and then help change, the structural issues that helped him get away with his misdeeds.

"He was shunned, he lost a lot of money — that seems appropriate," she said. "Has he paid his debt both to [his accusers] and to society?" she asked.

For all of the power of the #MeToo movement to quash careers — it toppled scores of high-profile media executives after victims shared their experiences of sexual assault on social media using the now-famous hashtag — it's unclear if, and how, the cultural sea change will impact the behavior of abusers.

"I think when we think about #MeToo, the jury is out on whether it has changed perpetrator behavior," Decker said. The young movement's chief victory, she says, was to empower victims to speak out against experiences that had long been tolerated and perpetrators who have long had impunity. In the wake of abuse coming to light, she said, "what you really want to see is a real commitment to change."

In the case of C.K. and others emblematic of the #MeToo movement, victims were women hoping to further their careers, with perpetrators, successful men, who tried to seduce them with prospects of connections. Often, they used their elevated stature to suppress allegations against them and to retaliate against those who dared to speak out. Making amends will require more support for the women who were victimized in the first place, Johnson said.

With the tour, Johnson said, C.K. is "getting to recreate the narrative of himself as a successful comic away from the sexual assault allegations. But where's the opportunity for these women to do that?"
 
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Doggg

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,461
giphy.gif
 

Dongs Macabre

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,284
Framing it as whether or not he's "paid his debt" is so ridiculous to me. It's like people think a career in comedy is what he deserves as if he isn't rich and couldn't get another job away from the spotlight.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
Every time someone's complaining about cancel culture, I try to think of examples of those who were called out and it caused anything more than a momentary inconvenience.
 

Nintenleo

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,212
Italy
Once he faced all the legal consequences, he's free to do whatever he wants. And if he still got an audience, well, good for him and for whoever wants to give him any kind of job.

But this shouldn't pass as a story of "moving forward" because, you know, he wasn't the victim in this story.

EDIT:
With the tour, Johnson said, C.K. is "getting to recreate the narrative of himself as a successful comic away from the sexual assault allegations. But where's the opportunity for these women to do that?"

This.
 

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
In the case of C.K. and others emblematic of the #MeToo movement, victims were women hoping to further their careers, with perpetrators, successful men, who tried to seduce them with prospects of connections.

The fuck is up with this sentence, right here?

Anyway, I have no obligation to forgive Louis C.K. or anyone else for shit. They can look to their family to find people obligated to forgive.

I'm just a consumer in an open market. Plenty of non-shitty comedians to choose from.

Cancel Culture isn't a thing, you snowflakes. ;)
 

Firima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,474
Has he moved forward from pulling his penis out in front of women, or was that only because he got called out for it?
 

brinstar

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
10,272
These conversations about paying debts feel so overly dramatic. He isn't owed a platform and audience. If people don't want to see him after finding out what kind of person he is them's the breaks.
 

Ewo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44
He's going to be performing and catering to people who either don't really care or are opposed to #MeToo. My bets are on he gets worse.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
Every time someone's complaining about cancel culture, I try to think of examples of those who were called out and it caused anything more than a momentary inconvenience.

Do you have examples of those who were called out and it only caused a momentary inconvenience?

I think at that point, we need to get into each individual case. CK is one where there absolutely be more than a "momentary inconvenience," especially given how he has carried himself since. But I'm curious as to who else you have in mind.
 

Deleted member 3010

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Oct 25, 2017
10,974
That's a question also on the mind of Margaret E. Johnson, law professor and co-director at the Center on Applied Feminism at the University of Baltimore School of Law. "We're not going to cancel all these people and shun them forever and exclude them on an island," she said.

You know, on paper it does sound like a good idea.
 

enzo_gt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,299
Every time someone's complaining about cancel culture, I try to think of examples of those who were called out and it caused anything more than a momentary inconvenience.
Erm, Bill Cosby going to spend his last years in jail?
Al Franken resigning from congress?
R Kelly about to get the book thrown at him?
Harvey Weinstein, even given the settlement, has and will continue to face consequences for his actions?

You don't have to think very hard. These are more than momentary inconveniences and, no, they aren't just hopping right back to it. And if they are, they have certainly lost significant amounts of money, power, and respect. Cancel culture is more than just going after the worst of the worst, though, and there are legitimate complaints to be made that were pretty eloquently summed up in the recent thread.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,618
Comeback from what? A little public finger wagging and an unchanged monetary funding?

if anything coming back would be a downturn for him, he didnt have his new audience then!
 

Deleted member 48897

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Oct 22, 2018
13,623
The fuck is up with this sentence, right here?

I'm hoping/guessing they mean "these women sought mentorship from high-profile dudes who then betrayed that trust through sexist objectification" but, well, I agree that it's worded in a creepy way.

Erm, Bill Cosby going to spend his last years in jail?
Al Franken resigning from congress?
R Kelly about to get the book thrown at him?
Harvey Weinstein, even given the settlement, has and will continue to face consequences for his actions?

These are such weird examples to pull out, especially since 3 of these cases are literally the result of criminal charges after long periods of getting away with socially unacceptable behavior. "Trump getting impeached? Sheesh, cancel culture going too far yet again"
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
I am all for forgiveness and second chances when it comes to mistakes. Someone ignorantly does the wrong thing, says the wrong thing, offends a person or a group without malice or whatever. Everyone can make mistakes like that and do all the time.

Sexual predators, though, aren't making mistakes. They're not somehow unaware that they're not supposed to sexually assault people, or grope them, or jerk off in their presence without consent. Those aren't mistakes, they're coldly calculated pre-meditated behavior that they know is wrong and engage in, anyway.

Those people can get, and stay, eternally fucked by society at large. Fuck their careers and fuck them. There's no "moving forward" from being a predator, and there never should be.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,202
What, if anything, has Louis C.K. done to make amends? From what I've heard he's just added some "woe is me" jokes to his existing repertoire. Is there any reason to believe he even thinks what he did is wrong?
 

Bio

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,370
Denver, Colorado
The fuck is up with this sentence, right here?

I assume it's a poorly written way of saying they were largely young actresses and actors with larger aspirations who were then abused by powerful men who knew they were the key to those people's goals.

I don't think anyone was trying to say they were willingly putting themselves in a precarious situation because they were golddiggers or anything.
 

Komarkaze

Member
Oct 27, 2017
578
My wife was invited to be an opening comedian for Louis C.K. at this Baltimore show tonight. This would have been a huge honor for her comedy career under normal circumstances. But if she accepted to be his opener, it is an implicit co-signing of his behavior. She declined it, which was a tough decision for her because Louis was one of her favorite comedians of the past 10 years.
 

BAD

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Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
he doesn't seem at all to have learned anything so I'm glad his movie and tv career largely died
 

Deleted member 25702

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Oct 29, 2017
370
"Cancel culture" seems to envelope two different ideas: people wrongfully accused of something and their life being destroyed; and people (in power or in the spotlight) who truly did commit sexual harassment, power harassment, and other heinous acts having to face public opinion.
Who has been falsely accused who hasn't had their name cleared?
Who has been rightfully exposed who has had undue loss of status?
The term "cancel culture" is a boogeyman designed to create conformity to the idea that the rich and powerful are above public opinion. We talk about trying to reduce the cult of personality, but we have to give these rich (and therefore talented and therefore worthy of Doing Work) people our forgiveness as if we care about them. Screw that.
 

Rehynn

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
737
Has he moved forward from pulling his penis out in front of women, or was that only because he got called out for it?

AFAIK he reached out to the women and apologized well before the story broke. Make of that what you will.

Saw him in Budapest a couple weeks ago. His new material's really good and his delivery is as great as ever. Some really subtle but effective social commentary, and all of it makes conspiracy theories about him wanting to pander to the alt-right crowd ridiculous. Folks will definitely find reasons not to like his eventual new special, but his politics are the same that they've always been. He also addresses his sexual misconduct really openly, but definitely not in a way that will convince people who don't want to be convinced that he has learned anything. I look forward to seeing people's reactions to his new material once it comes out, and I'm definitely open to the possibility that I will reassess all of the above.

It's a bit like I Love You, Daddy, I guess. I think it's a fantastic movie that tackles some difficult shit with empathy but also really leaves it all open to bad-faith readings.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,565
USA
Who has been falsely accused who hasn't had their name cleared?
Who has been rightfully exposed who has had undue loss of status?

On the first question, it is absolutely wrong for "falsely accused" people to be harassed and tarnished regardless of if they are "cleared" or recover from the online abusiveness mentally and personally.

On the second question, I don't think anyone deserving has had "undue loss of status" but in cancel culture discussion threads, there are people who argue that such loss of status doesn't exist and vocal boycotts online are not really "cancelling" anyone - despite obvious examples who have lost major opportunity and status. Louis CK deserved to suffer major losses, more than he has in my opinion - but to ignore that his TV and movie careers disappeared, ignores reality.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
AFAIK he reached out to the women and apologized well before the story broke. Make of that what you will.

Saw him in Budapest a couple weeks ago. His new material's really good and his delivery is as great as ever. Some really subtle but effective social commentary, and all of it makes conspiracy theories about him wanting to pander to the alt-right crowd ridiculous. Folks will definitely find reasons not to like his eventual new special, but his politics are the same that they've always been. He also addresses his sexual misconduct really openly, but definitely not in a way that will convince people who don't want to be convinced that he has learned anything. I look forward to seeing people's reactions to his new material once it comes out, and I'm definitely open to the possibility that I will reassess all of the above.

It's a bit like I Love You, Daddy, I guess. I think it's a fantastic movie that tackles some difficult shit with empathy but also really leaves it all open to bad-faith readings.
Honest question: you didn't at all feel guilty for financially supporting a serial sexual harasser/flasher who ruined other people's careers in comedy?
 

Deleted member 48897

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Oct 22, 2018
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Sexual predators, though, aren't making mistakes. They're not somehow unaware that they're not supposed to sexually assault people, or grope them, or jerk off in their presence without consent. Those aren't mistakes, they're coldly calculated pre-meditated behavior that they know is wrong and engage in, anyway.

Hell, everything about CK's material was built on a tacit admission that he was aware what he was doing was wrong! The only part he didn't say out loud was that he was actually doing it, or at least hid it under the idea that he was playing a character and not representing his own behavior outside of performance. Which, hmmmm.

Alec Holowka committed suicide.

Oh fuck OFF with that immediately
 

Rehynn

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
737
Honest question: you didn't at all feel guilty for financially supporting a serial sexual harasser/flasher who ruined other people's careers in comedy?

Yeah, I definitely had conflicting feelings about going. I think he's made immensely valuable and humanistic contributions to culture, so I'm naturally interested in what he's been working on, and the story, as I understand it, is not as black-and-white as some people make it out to be, but I've had many conversations with female friends about how they feel about uninvited expressions of sexual desire and really don't want to seem like I'm making light of the whole thing, including the effect that it has had on people's careers.
 

Deleted member 49482

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Nov 8, 2018
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I can totally separate the art and the artist when it comes to music, and I think some similarly-grouped situations are more nuanced and not as black and white (see Aziz Ansari). But with Louis C.K.? I'd be totally fine if he was removed for public fame entirely.

I loved his stand-up and even watched all seasons of his show, but I have no desire to consume any "entertainment" he produces for the rest of his life.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
What, if anything, has Louis C.K. done to make amends? From what I've heard he's just added some "woe is me" jokes to his existing repertoire. Is there any reason to believe he even thinks what he did is wrong?
Nothing.

Louis doing a set that grappled with his misconduct, not unlike the way Aziz has done on his current tour, could be interesting to hear but he seems pretty resistant at doing approaching that and, by all accounts, hasn't done a single thing to make amends. I remember he'd ended his statement back in 2017 about going away to listen, but I don't think anything he's said or done since then reflects any kind of actual listening.
 

Rehynn

Banned
Feb 14, 2018
737
Hell, everything about CK's material was built on a tacit admission that he was aware what he was doing was wrong!

Not really.

"But what I learned later in life, too late, is that when you have power over another person, asking them to look at your dick isn't a question. It's a predicament for them. The power I had over these women is that they admired me. And I wielded that power irresponsibly. "

Of course, you can choose to believe that this is not true, and there absolutely is a possibility that you're right.
 

Kaban

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,498
I believe people can redeem themselves if they make a genuine and conscientious attempt to make amends towards the women in their field that isn't just a public apology (though that depends on the severity of their previous actions). CK has only complained and made a fuss about it - if the perpetrator tries coming off as a victim, then you've lost me.
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
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Oct 25, 2017
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I think it's possible for people like this to become better given enough time (a lot) and proactive effort on their part (a lot), but I don't think there is any way to convey genuine progress to the public and re-enter the entertainment field. I think you gotta leave that life behind.

Maybe if Louis showed up on stage literally 20 years later, in his early 70s with a big grey beard and talked about how he's spent the last 20 years becoming a better person, working with professionals to understand what is deeply wrong inside his brain and making peace with those he wronged, that would be okay. But these are the extremes we're talking about here and it's not practical.
 

TaySan

SayTan
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Dec 10, 2018
31,452
Tulsa, Oklahoma
My wife was invited to be an opening comedian for Louis C.K. at this Baltimore show tonight. This would have been a huge honor for her comedy career under normal circumstances. But if she accepted to be his opener, it is an implicit co-signing of his behavior. She declined it, which was a tough decision for her because Louis was one of her favorite comedians of the past 10 years.
She made the right decision. I wouldn't want to associate with him.