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LTTP: Bloodborne - bad game design is "hardcore" now?
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
Bloodborne didn't clicked me at all and I mean at all ..tried 3 times 3 times get uninstalled faster than light
Imho is so much over valued
Imho is so much over valued
Faster than light? Sounds like you didn't really try them then.
OP the game is hard, forget about "git gud" and other pretentious memes. It's hard and you have the right to not like that. I struggle with hard things too, recently Dead Cells, and almost dropped Bloodborne. For some reason I kept coming back, and started using death as a mechanic, some runs I would just go around picking up items, some I would just focus on unlocking shortcuts, they all led to death, but it didn't matter. Dying is by design and once it clicks, it feels amazing. And once that clicks you will realise the brilliance in the design, in the levels, in the lore ( which is probably the most fascinating in any game I've ever played) and also in the difficulty.
Bosses will be the constant frustration I could do without, but even that forces you to fully explore the levels, pick anything that lets you level up, and kill every enemy to get experience. And you can always summon people for help, and it's super fun. Just let go of the shame. Really... let go of the shame in asking for help, the shame in dying, the shame in looking up guides. Forget "git gud" - it's stupid. Just enjoy the game however you want, cheat and cheese if that's how you feel like. The game is designed to be explored and exploited - and that's the greatness in it, because it gets you involved like no other. And why it's my favourite game of this generation.
Bosses will be the constant frustration I could do without, but even that forces you to fully explore the levels, pick anything that lets you level up, and kill every enemy to get experience. And you can always summon people for help, and it's super fun. Just let go of the shame. Really... let go of the shame in asking for help, the shame in dying, the shame in looking up guides. Forget "git gud" - it's stupid. Just enjoy the game however you want, cheat and cheese if that's how you feel like. The game is designed to be explored and exploited - and that's the greatness in it, because it gets you involved like no other. And why it's my favourite game of this generation.
Probably isn't my type of game ...and isn't about "get good" I just don't get the same type of feeling in this type of "masochist" games (if you get what I mean)
The budget has grown with the success of Dark Souls, and probably more people worked on the recent titles, but in terms of the DNA of those games and where FROM is coming from, it's a similar philosophy and approach. It's not Assassin's Creed or Halo.
When beginning of Blopdborne was almost inaccessible for me. What helped was getting on GAF (pre-Era) and asked the community for help even though I was years late.
I almost gave up on the game despite all the critical acclaim. But I kept going and even as someone who never played any Souls game, this shit right here is game of generation, maybe even forever.
I didn't do as much learning on my own as I could have. But this is the game where you need to try and figure stuff out on your own, be it progress, mechanics, lore, whatnot.
I started watching lore videos on YouTube, and rather than spoiling the game for me, the lore only got more mysterious and made me start to ponder all the little details such as environment, character appearance design, even sound. All has a meaning to it.
I almost gave up on the game despite all the critical acclaim. But I kept going and even as someone who never played any Souls game, this shit right here is game of generation, maybe even forever.
I didn't do as much learning on my own as I could have. But this is the game where you need to try and figure stuff out on your own, be it progress, mechanics, lore, whatnot.
I started watching lore videos on YouTube, and rather than spoiling the game for me, the lore only got more mysterious and made me start to ponder all the little details such as environment, character appearance design, even sound. All has a meaning to it.
OP
OP
Thanks. Posts like this really make me want to give it another shot. :)
Of all the soulsbourne games to criticize you chose the only one that's legitimately amazing.
The game is not impenetrable by any means from a narrative or design standpoint. They just decided not to use exposition and instead to use mechanics and level design to encourage exploration and reveal vital information.
When playing Bloodborne you have to approach it in bite sized chunks, poking at the enemies or levels or bosses to explore how they work and what route you can take (either in combat or in traversal). You aren't expected to progress after every death, but you should learn something that may help the next run.
Honestly the first 5 hours are probably the hardest part of the game because you're spending those first hours learning via gameplay. Once you start to understand the world and the combat more things sort of just click into place.
The game is not impenetrable by any means from a narrative or design standpoint. They just decided not to use exposition and instead to use mechanics and level design to encourage exploration and reveal vital information.
When playing Bloodborne you have to approach it in bite sized chunks, poking at the enemies or levels or bosses to explore how they work and what route you can take (either in combat or in traversal). You aren't expected to progress after every death, but you should learn something that may help the next run.
Honestly the first 5 hours are probably the hardest part of the game because you're spending those first hours learning via gameplay. Once you start to understand the world and the combat more things sort of just click into place.
Yeah, it shares their DNA and no, it doesn't have the budget of AC. Almost nothing does.
That doesn't mean the games are niche and AA though, as I've detailed in greater length in my previous post.
I'm not sure what the budget or team size was for Bloodborne, but AAA gaming these days is a pretty huge number for both. I'd be shocked if FROM is in that ballpark.
Regardless, the newer games share a similar feel and overall style to their older games. Bloodborne is certainly on another level, but as I said, not a departure in terms of the small target audience as well as game design.
AAA is not just Rockstar and Ubi style budgets though. DS3 sold 3 million copies in a month. That is not a small audience. That's huge. From made the leap from a niche dev only known by hardcore gamers to a critically acclaimed dev that sells millions of copies with every game they make.
Not by sticking to established industry trends but by doing the exact opposite. All of that is reason to celebrate.
There's a conversation there as to how you even use AAA or AA as meaningful descriptors, but to me even in their relatively recent growth and success, FROM is still close to it's roots. Dark Souls is a phenomenon, of course. I imagine Bloodborne was much less than that.
The game certainly has issues.
I agree with the trial and error statement to an extent. It's a game based largely on memorization--true enough.
The controls are responsive, but the character is sluggish.
I think the combat is mediocre as hell. It's very shallow and patience based. I personally prefer faster paced action games that are heavy on skill like Ninja Gaiden and DMC. This is a different breed of combat. It can be difficult, but it's difficult in a unique way.
The performance just isn't very good. The dropping of frames mixed with bad frame pacing and no AA hurts the experience for me considerably. This is a game that could really shine with a pro patch of some kind.
Where the game is great though is in its level and enemy design. Fantastic art direction and lore as well. Also, my god, more games need lots of boss battles like Bloodborne.
I had a lot of the same problems as you did on the first playthrough. I found the whole thing mediocre with some bright spots. However, replays are much more enjoyable as the trial and error/memorization nonsense is behind you.
I agree with the trial and error statement to an extent. It's a game based largely on memorization--true enough.
The controls are responsive, but the character is sluggish.
I think the combat is mediocre as hell. It's very shallow and patience based. I personally prefer faster paced action games that are heavy on skill like Ninja Gaiden and DMC. This is a different breed of combat. It can be difficult, but it's difficult in a unique way.
The performance just isn't very good. The dropping of frames mixed with bad frame pacing and no AA hurts the experience for me considerably. This is a game that could really shine with a pro patch of some kind.
Where the game is great though is in its level and enemy design. Fantastic art direction and lore as well. Also, my god, more games need lots of boss battles like Bloodborne.
I had a lot of the same problems as you did on the first playthrough. I found the whole thing mediocre with some bright spots. However, replays are much more enjoyable as the trial and error/memorization nonsense is behind you.
This is completely wrong. There have been plenty of people where BB was their first souls game and absolutely loved it. You do not need to have played souls in order to get BB. And the game does teach you a lot of things, it just doesn't bang you over the head with it like most games now a days do. And the game wasn't even meant to be hard, just give you a challenge.
BB was the first souls game I put more than 1 hour into. It was actually the gateway drug for really giving the other ones their proper time of day.
See? This is what I mean. There are hundreds of people, just like you who never really tried souls games for whatever reason but gave BB a shot because its PS exclusive, or it looks cool, or whatever and loved it and then went back to other games to try them not that they sort of "get" how souls games work.
You do not need to be some pro who can beat the game in an hour with one hand tied behind his back or just be a masochist.
I'm in the camp of Bloodborne being my first Soulsborne game. I loved it, finished it thrice, played the DLC and I even got the platinum trophy. It's my second favourite game of all time tied with The Witcher 3 and just behind The Last of Us.
It was my first. It's the best game this gen.
Bloodborne/Dark Souls just highlight how handhold-y games had been for awhile and how hard it was for some people to engage with something out of their comfort zone. The games aren't overly difficult, they are fair but they are demanding. If you go along with the game instead of fighting it for being different, you'll be rewarded as much as any game ever.
Nah, it's one of the easier games in Souls. Certainly easier than DS3 (and shorter). The beginning is brutal, but it gets easier as it goes on.
The Souls games are kind of like Monster Hunter games to me. They take time to click. I played through the first 3 levels of Dark Souls 1 like four times over the course of two years, swore that the game was bullshit and overrated, but on that fifth attempt, I "got" it and became hooked.
I mean, if all you like is the aesthetic, why not watch a let's play?
I'd recommend this one, it's really good:
Unfortunately he didn't make a video series for the DLC, though, but it's a great starting point.
Wouldn't you say that Souls games are comparable to titles like Nier Automata and The Last Guardian in production values? Because Yosuke Saito, producer of Nier Automata says both Automata and The Last Guardian aren't AAA games, and puts them in the same category.
I'm also not sure Bloodborne is a AAA title, and I mean nothing bad by that at all, it's my favorite game. But sales these days are just way higher than they were a few years ago. In the early years of next gen, a AAA title would celebrate 1 million copies sold, now they pretty much expect 5 at least. Sony was super happy about Bloodborne reaching 2 million, though. Do you think they'd be thrilled if God of War only sold 2 million? I seriously doubt it. And Sony doesn't have to pay any platform fees, so their margin on each copy sold is way higher than any third party.
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Source, what games journo actually asked this because Cuphead's difficulty was praised. However, how it handles it's other difficulties, by locking players out of content unless they play on a higher difficulty, is worth discussing, as it's not exactly a good example of how to handle difficulty adjustments.
Bloodborne is one of those games I use to judge a persons taste. If you don't like it than I can't really take your opinion on other games seriously. The design is masterclass
I love Bloodborne, however, it isn't without flaws, for example, this POS has broken hitboxes, as do many of the chalice dungeon enemies and bosses
>:(
Having to collect blood vials if you run out was pretty lame also especially before they patched it.
I'm not saying it's perfect but it's cleary a well designed game with only some minor annoyances. Hitboxes is a reoccurring issue for the souls games, at least it's much better than Dark Souls 2 lolI love Bloodborne, however, it isn't without flaws, for example, this POS has broken hitboxes, as do many of the chalice dungeon enemies and bosses:>:(
Having to collect blood vials if you run out was pretty lame also especially before they patched it.
The main game is pretty amazing yea, just, fuck those chalice dungeons.
There's a lot more to the game than "figuring shit out." You could read an entire walk through to find the optimal path through everything but none of that will give you the mechanical skill or prepare you mentally to face off against the bosses or even most of the hunter fights. It's a game where the more you immerse yourself in it the better your experience will be. Being lost and desperate to find a lantern or shortcut back is a huge part of the emergent game play that a lot of people find engaging. Being able to build a mental map of a space, and stumbling on a hidden area you never found can be a great feeling, something that would be totally gone if they added a UI like that.
BB was my first Souls game, and my first blind play through of the game took me 35 hours. That was with me trying to explore every aspect (except Chalice Dungeons) it's a decent length but it's not overly long. It's fine if it doesn't appeal to you, but luckily for you there are plenty of other games that will cater to your tastes.
Yes. You can even take your time. Play others games before going back to BB.
My first souls game was Demon's souls. I hated what I played so I stopped, too hard. I thought the design was bad, but really I didn't know that type of game. I thought it wasn't for me. Those first enemies, again and again always the same after each death. Stupid.
Then later I tried Bloodborne, thanks to my short experience with Demon's souls I knew that I had to take my time, be patient, and not being afraid to die. And slowly, it all made sense, I platinumed it and it became one of my favorite PS4 game.
Then I re-played Demon's souls, this time with my long experience with Bloodborne, and I finished the game. This is now one of my favorite PS3 game.
Is this more what you wanted OP?
Lol the OP seen all the "git gud" posts over the years and ran into the game ready to shit on it.
Go play uncharted on very easy or something OP. These games arent for you if you think Bloodborne is "bland"
I get your frustration. It's hardly accessible and forgoes conventional design so it isn't as simple as pick-up-and-play. It's a different breed of game so you're gonna need to adopt a new frame of mind when playing.
I'll say this: For all the apparent emphasis on stats, levels, weapons, what have you, the biggest weapon you'll have is just your mindset. The game is terribly good at convincing you you're rubbish and really punishes you for dying. This makes the tension unbearable and death the ultimate failure. This affects your approach to the game and makes the gameplay loop difficult to bear.
As abstract as it sounds, once you see and accept death as a necessity and part of the learning process, you lose that fear, your play will loosen up and you'll start to see the enemies' pattern of play more clearly. You'll panic less and execute more cleanly. It's an incredibly therapeutic process which really opens up the game. You'll spend less time angry and impatient and more time calm and appreciative.
I'll say this: For all the apparent emphasis on stats, levels, weapons, what have you, the biggest weapon you'll have is just your mindset. The game is terribly good at convincing you you're rubbish and really punishes you for dying. This makes the tension unbearable and death the ultimate failure. This affects your approach to the game and makes the gameplay loop difficult to bear.
As abstract as it sounds, once you see and accept death as a necessity and part of the learning process, you lose that fear, your play will loosen up and you'll start to see the enemies' pattern of play more clearly. You'll panic less and execute more cleanly. It's an incredibly therapeutic process which really opens up the game. You'll spend less time angry and impatient and more time calm and appreciative.
I'll tell you what really helped me with these games, watching 0 Hit Runs on YouTube. Yes, there exists a lot of streamers that have fully completed these games without taking a single hit and often without even leveling up once. Once you realize they can do that, you understand the game isn't that insurmountable.
Here's one of my favorite dudes, Faraaz Khan who does a lot of these no hit runs for games:
OP, you just have to adjust your attitude to dying. Like Batatina said, death is its own mechanic. You're meant to die a lot. It's like you get unlimited retries.
When I hit a new area, I'd always go out on several forays. First, to travel as far as I could and understand the level layout and enemy placement. Then to gather items and unlock any shortcuts I could find, and plan out the most efficient path. And then finally I'd go out for real and either clear the whole area of enemies or run past them on the route I'd planned from before.
If you treat Bloodborne as an adventure in a dark and deadly world that you get to explore however you want, it's a lot more fun. The level design is actually great, with loads of alternate pathways and hidden routes to discover. Feel free to cheese the enemies and exploit their behaviors. The game allows and in some ways encourages that.
The only penalty to dying is the loss of your Blood Echoes and the respawning of dead enemies, which only matters if you've killed a lot of things beforehand. And if that does happen, you have a chance to get them back by running to where you died and picking them up, or killing a nearby enemy with glowing eyes. Then you can use a Hunter's Mark to teleport back to the Hunter's Dream and spend your Echoes.
Bloodborne is frustrating if you treat it like a standard game that you beat from going to A to B, fighting everything along the way and avoiding death, until you hit the next boss. That's not really the ideal approach.
One other tip: I'd suggest relying on the Hunter's Axe until you find a weapon that suits you better, although it can handle the whole game just fine. (You can choose it at the start of the game, or buy it a short time later.) The axe has amazing reach in its extended form, and its charged attack is one of the best attacks in the game: a 2-hit 360 strike with powerful knockback.
Oh, also, use the blunderbuss instead of the pistol. It makes enemies easier to stagger for Visceral Attacks, which is a very damaging technique done by interrupting an enemy attack with a shot or hitting their back with a fully charged strike (spinning ones don't work), then hitting them in the face while they're stunned.
When I hit a new area, I'd always go out on several forays. First, to travel as far as I could and understand the level layout and enemy placement. Then to gather items and unlock any shortcuts I could find, and plan out the most efficient path. And then finally I'd go out for real and either clear the whole area of enemies or run past them on the route I'd planned from before.
If you treat Bloodborne as an adventure in a dark and deadly world that you get to explore however you want, it's a lot more fun. The level design is actually great, with loads of alternate pathways and hidden routes to discover. Feel free to cheese the enemies and exploit their behaviors. The game allows and in some ways encourages that.
The only penalty to dying is the loss of your Blood Echoes and the respawning of dead enemies, which only matters if you've killed a lot of things beforehand. And if that does happen, you have a chance to get them back by running to where you died and picking them up, or killing a nearby enemy with glowing eyes. Then you can use a Hunter's Mark to teleport back to the Hunter's Dream and spend your Echoes.
Bloodborne is frustrating if you treat it like a standard game that you beat from going to A to B, fighting everything along the way and avoiding death, until you hit the next boss. That's not really the ideal approach.
One other tip: I'd suggest relying on the Hunter's Axe until you find a weapon that suits you better, although it can handle the whole game just fine. (You can choose it at the start of the game, or buy it a short time later.) The axe has amazing reach in its extended form, and its charged attack is one of the best attacks in the game: a 2-hit 360 strike with powerful knockback.
Oh, also, use the blunderbuss instead of the pistol. It makes enemies easier to stagger for Visceral Attacks, which is a very damaging technique done by interrupting an enemy attack with a shot or hitting their back with a fully charged strike (spinning ones don't work), then hitting them in the face while they're stunned.
