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Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
Yeah, this is another gushing thread about BotW because the game freaking deserves it and I only played it now. I also expect this game to continue to be praised for many years to come so I guess people will have to deal with it.

One common discussion regarding the Zelda games is whether the next entry in the franchise will reach or even surpass Ocarina of Time. Many say that it would be impossible, times are different, you can't ever quite recreate that moment again. My take is, well, BotW just did it.

OoT is regarded as one of the best videogames of all time because it had it all. The timing was right, it was the first 3D game in the franchise right at the time the industry was shifting to polygons and it ended up doing lots of things for the first time and influencing other games for many years, its targeting system is probably replicated by lots of games even today. So it was a game that not only had an insane amount of polish and quality, it was novel. I think it was that combination of doing something very fresh and potentially hugely influential and also executing it perfectly that put OoT on the pedestal it is, and it was earned.

This is why I think BotW is another OoT moment. For starters, it represents a huge leap in the franchise. After OoT we've had two styles of Zelda, 3D and 2D, and after BotW we will probably have a third style, open world Zelda. Second, it might not look that novel at first glance since open world games are abundant, but other games had also had 3D environments at the time, but none did it quite like OoT, and sure as hell no one has done open world like BotW did. It twists and perfects the concept to a point that it feels fresh and makes it hard to go back to other games that aren't like it.

On top of that, the game is magnificently executed. It is incredible when you look back and think that this was this team's first open world game. They didn't gradually reached this level of quality, they just started from scratch and totally nailed it first time. What is most impressive is that their last console game was freaking Skyward Sword, a game that is the diametric opposite of BotW. You could do a meme about it, Aonuma one day randomly hearing about open world games and being like "ok, hold my beer".

Many people will say the game has lots of flaws to be considered perfect, but I don't agree. BotW's quirks do not hold it back from shining, and for most of them I can completely understand why they did it like that. Weapon durability, lack of full fledged dungeons, they might be a deal breaker for some but I don't think anyone can deny they make sense, they are coherent to what the game is trying to do. I consider these not flaws per se, but just room for improvement. They are doing a sequel now and I'm pretty sure they will address these point in unexpected ways that we didn't even know we wanted, but we do. I doubt Aonuma will deal with the dungeon issue simply by putting old style dungeons in the game, I'm sure they will come up with another solution that will feel classier and better and still coherent with the game's intent.

So yeah, all things considered, I'm advocating BotW did reach OoT level, and will always be remembered as an influence and a high point for this industry. The mission seemed impossible, but I say they did it. Kudos, Zelda team.
 

Doggg

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,429
It's not my favorite Zelda, but it's still game of the generation for me.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Sure.

I didn't care for OoT and I don't care for BotW. Both are totally the opposite of what I look for in a Legend of Zelda game: tight level/world design, minimal sidequest nonsense, and a focus on dungeons.

OG TLoZ was the high water mark of the series, but even A Link Between Worlds was pretty good.
 

Deleted member 14377

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,520
You walk around a barren world with bits and bobs strewn about. No real sense of progression outside seeing hearts and stamina get larger. All challenge is mitigated by being able to carry many heals. Parry system is incredibly easy as well. Then you have the chopped up story that IS interesting, but so incredibly short. Not to mention a bland final dungeon and a laughable final boss that is made EASIER if you did the intended story beats.

A few outstanding shrines and genuinely cool events aside, there are many games to me better than it the year of it's release, more if you bring in the entire generation.

I know I'm in the minority, not only am I someone who didn't care for BotW, but I'm someone who doesn't care for it while also not being bothered by breakable weapons. I'm also more of a Majora's Mask/Ages/Seasons guy when it comes to Zelda. The team is so incredibly talented, that their best work comes when they have more time to put pieces in play, rather than making the pieces AND putting them into play.

I'm hoping BotW2 is a Majora's Mask moment. It definitely seems that way based on the darker direction the initial trailer seems to imply the series is heading in for this iteration
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,552
It was truly amazing. Games like this only come ever so often. I'm not expecting another one for another decade or so. Hopefully the sequel or another game proves me wrong.
 

Deleted member 14377

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,520
Moving into 3d with that kind of success is so much more impressive and important

This too. OoT was not only a marvel of a game that still holds up fairly well to this day, it was also the advent of 3D gaming, I'd even say more important than Mario 64 in terms of legacy and impact on the industry as a whole in terms of mechanics and early storytelling in a 3D environment. Breath of the Wild introduced the industry to mechanics that will likely find their way into many games going forward, but it's impact will definitely not be felt to the extent that say OoT, Mario64 or even RE4
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,266
OoT was not only a marvel of a game that still holds up fairly well to this day

Breath of the Wild introduced the industry to mechanics that will likely find their way into many games going forward, but it's impact will definitely not be felt to the extent that say OoT, Mario64 or even RE4.
Disagree with both statements, especially the first. It's difficult to play Ocarina in 2019.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Yes. I certainly had that special feeling while playing it that I hadn't felt in the series since OoT.
 

bytesized

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,882
Amsterdam
I agree 100%, specially with this part.

Weapon durability, lack of full fledged dungeons, they might be a deal breaker for some but I don't think anyone can deny they make sense, they are coherent to what the game is trying to do.

Which would include the music that so many people didn't like and for me it was the best score in any game ever, incredibly avant-garde and risky but so fitting with the kind of game they were set out to do.

My GOTG, no doubt.
 

Butch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,437
Yeah it's arguably the greatest game ever.

Yup, I'm playing it at the moment and people weren't exagerating at all. The game is that good.

I agree 100%, specially with this part.



Which would include the music that so many people didn't like and for me it was the best score in any game ever, incredibly avant-garde and risky but so fitting with the kind of game they were set out to do.

My GOTG, no doubt.

People don't like BoTW music? I agree with you, the music is amazing to me.
 

AllEchse

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,125
I dunno, BOTW is more than the sum of its parts, it takes systems like crafting that are very common in modern games and uses them in a way thats fun.
OoT on the other hand was more of a pioneer as it didn't have as many blueprints to go off of.
SO I don't think they are really that close.
 
OP
OP
Leo

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
You walk around a barren world with bits and bobs strewn about.

I have seen lots of criticism about the game but this is a first.

How is the world barren, every little nook and cranny has something, exploration NEVER goes unrewarded. It's actually impressive, I catch myself thinking "how the hell did these guys know I was gonna pass through here and put this here for me?". Be it shrines, Korok seeds, minibosses, hidden chests or enemy camps, there is always something to find. I'm sweeping the map front to back precisely because it always pays off.

I supposed the rewards could be more meaningful and varied as they get samey at some point (except for shrines, which only get better), but I haven't seen any other game being better at this yet.
 

KarmaCow

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,147
The level design in the open world is unmatched. The way it guides you from place to place using just landmarks and framing (without taking control from the player) is one of those things that you don't necessarily recognize while playing it but also something you immediately miss when you play another game.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
I have seen lots of criticism about the game but this is a first.

How is the world barren, every little book and cranny has something, exploration NEVER goes unrewarded. It's actually impressive, I catch myself thinking "how the hell did these guys know I was gonna pass through here and out this here for me?". Be it shrines, Korok seeds, minibosses, hidden chests or enemy camps, there is always something to find. I'm sweeping the map front to back precisely because it always pays off.

I supposed the rewards could be more meaningful and varied as they get samey at some point (except for shrines, which only get better), but I haven't seen any other game being better at this yet.

I think its more that for the majority of the game you'll spend a long time running and climbing around only to find one of three iterative gameplay elements.
How do Shrines only get better? They do not scale to your level/gear, have the same one enemy in then, and a third of them are basically redundant.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Sure.

I didn't care for OoT and I don't care for BotW. Both are totally the opposite of what I look for in a Legend of Zelda game: tight level/world design, minimal sidequest nonsense, and a focus on dungeons.

OG TLoZ was the high water mark of the series, but even A Link Between Worlds was pretty good.
But...OoT has tight leveldesign? Like, it's arguably the tightest one still. The first Zelda is like the opposite of tight leveldesign lol. It's pretty basic and obtuse.
 

Butch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,437
I think its more that for the majority of the game you'll spend a long time running and climbing around only to find one of three iterative gameplay elements.
How do Shrines only get better? They do not scale to your level/gear, have the same one enemy in then, and a third of them are basically redundant.

In CoD you'll spend a long time pressing forward and shooting stuff. We can do this with every game, clearly there's more to it.
 

Deleted member 14377

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,520
I have seen lots of criticism about the game but this is a first.

How is the world barren, every little book and cranny has something, exploration NEVER goes unrewarded. It's actually impressive, I catch myself thinking "how the hell did these guys know I was gonna pass through here and out this here for me?". Be it shrines, Korok seeds, minibosses, hidden chests or enemy camps, there is always something to find. I'm sweeping the map front to back precisely because it always pays off.

I supposed the rewards could be more meaningful and varied as they get samey at some point (except for shrines, which only get better), but I haven't seen any other game being better at this yet.

I open a chest and get a weapon that will inevitable break, food I will eat, the ability to make my hearts or stamina go up so I can run around this empty world a little bit more at a time. Korok seeds to increase my ability to carry more of the afformentioned food and and gear.

There is nothing inherently "unique" to find.

I play games without RPGlite mechanics. I'm not asking for stats, builds or whatever else. There are plenty of games I love that don't have that but still also provide you with meaningful rewards, be it more lore, story or otherwise, that reward you for dedicating your time to exploring their world. Hell, some of them are other Nintendo franchises even.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
In CoD you'll spend a long time pressing forward and shooting stuff. We can do this with every game, clearly there's more to it since there has to be a reason so many people find the game so fkin fun.

I don't like COD either, but its campaigns are like 10hrs long with minimal dawdling. Weird game to compare. Pretty sure most people get CoD for the multiplayer even.
 

Deleted member 14377

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,520
In CoD you'll spend a long time pressing forward and shooting stuff. We can do this with every game, clearly there's more to it since there has to be a reason so many people find the game so fkin fun.

Right. The gameplay loop of breath of the wild just simply isn't for me. I'm someone who can put hundreds of hours into Binding of Isaac, but I know there's a lot of people who see roguelikes/lites as pointless as I see BotW and i totally get that.
 

Dyno

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,211
The lack of a linear story bothered me at first but the more time I spent in that world the less I cared
 

Butch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,437
I don't like COD either, but its campaigns are like 10hrs long with minimal dawdling. Weird game to compare.

That's the thing, we can do it with any game you want. You are ignoring everything else that actually happens when you play, I'm sorry it's just a dumb argument to me.

Right. The gameplay loop of breath of the wild just simply isn't for me. I'm someone who can put hundreds of hours into Binding of Isaac, but I know there's a lot of people who see roguelikes/lites as pointless as I see BotW and i totally get that.

Yeah I get it. I mean it's perfectly valid to not like it, but to diminish everything that goes on to just "Running and climbing around" it's kinda silly to me.
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,908
716
It easily made my top 10 list right away and i think it's toward the top.

It's an incredible experience, one of the best I've ever played and there's so much room to grow and improve.

Was the absolute right move for the franchise and exactly what I needed from it.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I have seen lots of criticism about the game but this is a first.

How is the world barren, every little nook and cranny has something, exploration NEVER goes unrewarded. It's actually impressive, I catch myself thinking "how the hell did these guys know I was gonna pass through here and put this here for me?". Be it shrines, Korok seeds, minibosses, hidden chests or enemy camps, there is always something to find. I'm sweeping the map front to back precisely because it always pays off.

I supposed the rewards could be more meaningful and varied as they get samey at some point (except for shrines, which only get better), but I haven't seen any other game being better at this yet.
By having a tool that let them see in real time where people walked on the map while playing during development. Aonuma once talked about how he had dozens of people play the game and track their movement. So when 10 out of 12 people chose one direction, they created a point of interest in a different direction to see if people chose more diverse paths. They did this over and over again, and it shows. You constantly see something new to get sidetracked.

It's the best open world ever created from traversal, over points of interest and verticality to general scale. The way you always see multiple objectives from everywhere is fantastic.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,607
That's the thing, we can do it with any game you want. You are ignoring everything else that actually happens when you play, I'm sorry it's just a dumb argument to me.

No, I beat the game with most of the content. The world seemed like they made it so big that they had to pad it out with a lot of filler.
The pacing and progression are busted, particularly if you go to the Gerudo area first which had the toughest boss, then go around the map hoping the next shrine isn't another trial of combat or that you wont find another cloned enemy camp to actively avoid.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
It apes too much of the conventions of other open world games, even if it ultimately borrows it for subversion with its own tricks, to be another OoT moment.

OoT was a game that showed the industry how 3D can even be done to create a sense of adventure and in-world sense of action. BoTW is just a game that course corrected the industry from completely complacent/boring open world design.
 

LordByron28

Member
Nov 5, 2017
2,348
I'd argue in some ways it is actually of a bigger moment than OoT. OoT used ALttP's template for progression and story flow. BotW in many ways breaks a ton of ground that even OoT didnt. I'd argue that BotW becoming the best selling Zelda title by a wide margin(even when combining sales of rereleases and remakes with the original release) is evident of that as well.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I open a chest and get a weapon that will inevitable break, food I will eat, the ability to make my hearts or stamina go up so I can run around this empty world a little bit more at a time. Korok seeds to increase my ability to carry more of the afformentioned food and and gear.

There is nothing inherently "unique" to find.

I play games without RPGlite mechanics. I'm not asking for stats, builds or whatever else. There are plenty of games I love that don't have that but still also provide you with meaningful rewards, be it more lore, story or otherwise, that reward you for dedicating your time to exploring their world. Hell, some of them are other Nintendo franchises even.
To be fair, what open world games don't have RPG elements these days. Skilltrees and XP everywhere, because it's the easierst way to create a system for progression. I think BoTW managed it decently enough without all that.

There is some very cool gear that lets you swim up waterfalls or lets you climb during rain for example. I'm not saying it's perfect mind you, but weapons that break were never a problem for me. I found the lack of bigger shrines, enemy variety and underwhelming boss battles to be the bigger issue with the game.
 

WestEgg

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,047
The comparison is pretty apt, as I think similar to how Ocarina was the template for 3D Zelda for decades, BotW is the new template for the foreseeable future.
 

GuEiMiRrIRoW

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,530
Brazil
I want them to develop the next zelda based on multiplayer. The gameplay of BoTw is so good that it deserves a MMO game based on it.
 
OP
OP
Leo

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,546
I think its more that for the majority of the game you'll spend a long time running and climbing around only to find one of three iterative gameplay elements.
How do Shrines only get better? They do not scale to your level/gear, have the same one enemy in then, and a third of them are basically redundant.

The only redundant shrines are the battle ones which are not that frequent. From my experience, the puzzle ones just get better and more complex, and, as yourself, I also wonder how is that possible since their order is completely random and personal.

The only answer is that the team thought about the world design very carefully and managed to scale the challenge with no barriers at all. Of course, you could go straight to Ganon's Castle and have a huge difficulty spike, but most players won't do that, so what would they do? Figuring that out and translating that into a landscape was probably the biggest challenge the devs had with this game and, in my opinion, they did it devilishly well.

Another thing to consider is that exploration also pays off simply by giving you new interesting landscapes. Some of the views you get are amazing, the environments are different and varied and that isn't just a cosmetic aspect, it also affects gameplay because the climates are different, in some areas it rains more often than others, you can find different wildlife and materials on them, etc.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
That's used like twice in the whole game. That's the whole problem I have with the game in a nutshell, there are really cool aspects but its just so massive that they account for like 1% of the game.
Is it though? I used it plenty of times. It's quicker than climbing up with icecubes or on the wall. Whenever I saw a waterfall I used the gear. I don't deny that they can flesh out a lot of the systems in the game, but as a first try they nailed a lot of stuff others have struggled with for years.
 

Duane

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,423
When OoT came out I appreciated how great the implementation of 3D gameplay was, and I did love the game, but it felt kinda janky to me compared to the "tightness" of LttP and Link's Awakening, which were both just a few years old at that point.

And while I loved them all, NONE of them ever matched the unhinged, anything-can-happen feeling of the original NES LoZ. The original LoZ gave you a sword and turned you loose. It punished you until you learned its rules. you never knew WHAT you were going to come across. And it didn't care if you didn't follow its intended sequence... if you did it wrong, you'd just get your ass kicked until you did it right. But that truly free feeling of "who knows what's out there" was never matched in the series again for me.

Until Breath of the Wild came out.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,268
For me the game did a lot of great things, but failed in others. It doesn't really come close to the best Zelda's imo, those really are more complete packages for me as they nail everything they go for and BotW simply doesn't do that imo.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I want them to develop the next zelda based on multiplayer. The gameplay of BoTw is so good that it deserves a MMO game based on it.
giphy.gif
 

Vertpin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,875
I certainly disagree. it has its highs, but it definitely has its lows, and I feel like it's quite overrated. I'm glad you're enjoying it though, OP.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
Best Zelda game by far. I never expected that i would have that much fun with a 3D Zelda game ever again after a string of mediocre titles.

Not my favorite Nintendo game that year but it deserves every bit of praise it has gotten. It blows all other 3D Zelda games out of the water.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
For me the game did a lot of great things, but failed in others. It doesn't really come close to the best Zelda's imo, those really are more complete packages for me as they nail everything they go for and BotW simply doesn't do that imo.
I think it's just that with such an ambitious game it's hard to do. Not to say OoT wasn't ambitious, quite the opposite, but you can clearly see where BotW struggled with content, even with the long development time. I'm confident that now that the physics, artstyle and general world design are already done, they can focus on stuff like dungeons, bosses and enemy variety more.
 

Karateka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,940
Botw is a lot of slowing climbing up rocks imo the design i loved about zelda games is sorely lacking in botw
That said its still a fun enough game but it does nothing to make me want to replay it.