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Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Finished the game a little bit ago, at around 82% completion and after roughly 28h of playtime. Bought all of Cornifer's maps, filled them in as best I could, got around 3/4 of the Grubs, and probably around 25/40 of the charms. I do plan to get the Platinum, since concept of an ultra punishing boss rush mode quite intrigues me, and I felt that the boss fights were the best thing about Hollow Knight.

The negative
All that said, I can't help but feel that the game just dragged on for way too long, especially considering its genre (Metroidvania), which generally consists of shorter, more concise experiences. Whereas something like Metroid Fusion or Zero Mission can craft an exciting, memorable experience roughly 5 hours long, Hollow Knight is content proceeding at a glacial pace. Character upgrades are rare, and the game seems more about getting lost, finding the cartographer, and consulting the map than it does getting you through a mid-sized area at a brisk, reasonable pace. What really doesn't help is that despite all of the "biomes" being distinct from one another, nearly every area and room within those biomes are nondescript, sharing near identical backgrounds and platforms, as well as an all too similar look and feel. These factors, coupled with the fact that landmarks and fast travel points are so infrequently stumbled upon (not to mention the sheer scope of the world), contribute to making the game feel like a maze, and not always in a good way.

The positive

Instead, what I did enjoy about Hollow Knight was how the Knight themself controlled, and the various ways in which their abilities made the gameplay loop feel satisfying. Dashing, wall jumping, speed boosting, and nail bouncing felt tight and responsive, and navigating the landscape with those abilities at the forefront was what made the game fundamentally enjoyable to play through. Music was also pretty solid all around, with tracks evoking wildly different feelings for each of the respective areas and their associated boss fights (City of Tears and Hornet's theme being standouts, imo). Regarding the story and lore, however, I admittedly could not bring myself to care or form that much of an investment when it's all so cryptic and scattered across the fragmented dialogue of so many NPCs and Dream Nail-able entities. The game had hours to pull me into its story somehow, but it just never did. There were, however, a few resonant moments, particularly Bretta's creepycute crush on the Knight, Zote's continual boasts and set of precepts, and of course, The Last Stag / Old Stag's emergence of hope and optimism upon rediscovering his old home. Largely, I feel that Bloodborne serves as a better example of how to draw the player in through sparse, mysterious lore and dialogue.

In closing
Hollow Knight was an interesting enough experience, and one that I certainly don't regret having. Was it the 10/10 Metroidvania GOAT that many on this forum claim it to be, though? No, I don't quite think it reached even close to that standard. Honestly, I do find it bewildering that, in a period where lambasting modern, labrious, massive AAA open world checklist games is the norm in enthusiast circles such as ours, Hollow Knight seemingly gets a pass for doing more or less the same thing (treading upon that "bigger is better" game design mindset), but in 2D Metroidvania form. I can only hope that Silksong consists of a tighter, more focused experience, but I don't think I'd bet on that coming to fruition. All the same, I'm glad to have experienced HK's tight mobility, combat, and boss fights.
 

RochHoch

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 22, 2018
18,884
Fantastic game, but one that desperately needed better fast-travel options.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,320
I wouldn't consider 28 hrs to finish a game as bloated but just right, a lot metroidvanias are only 10-12 hrs and always wished they were longer, hollow knight is just right in size
 

Deleted member 3017

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,653
Outside of maybe one or two more fast travel points, Hollow Knight never felt too big or "bloated" to me in any way. In fact, I'd have been fine with more.

Can't wait for Silksong.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
The negative
All that said, I can't help but feel that the game just dragged on for way too long, especially considering its genre (Metroidvania), which generally consists of shorter, more concise experiences. Whereas something like Metroid Fusion or Zero Mission can craft an exciting, memorable experience roughly 5 hours long, Hollow Knight is content proceeding at a glacial pace. Character upgrades are rare, and the game seems more about getting lost, finding the cartographer, and consulting the map than it does getting you through a mid-sized area at a brisk, reasonable pace. What really doesn't help is that despite all of the "biomes" being distinct from one another, nearly every area and room within those biomes are nondescript, sharing near identical backgrounds and platforms, as well as an all too similar look and feel. These factors, coupled with the fact that landmarks and fast travel points are so infrequently stumbled upon (not to mention the sheer scope of the world), contribute to making the game feel like a maze, and not always in a good way.
Bang on. Way too long, repetitive environments, awful mapping and terrible fast travel.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,597
I have tried a few times to come back to it but I can't figure out where I am or what to do next. I don't have the muscle memory to even attempt the boss fight I'm currently trying (Watcher Knights, just not in me - I have since read they are not mandatory apparently) so I thought I might try and soldier on. Can I get to the surface for some sort of direction or NPC to tell me vague instructions?

Mid-2018 I was carrying a torch for this game big time, I have to return to it.
 

Deleted member 5322

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,523
It's funny, I totally agree with your complaint about how big it is but it didn't bother me in the moment. Yet it's for that reason that I have next to zero interest in Silksong, feel like I beyond got my fill with the first game.
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
I played it for 60+ hours and honestly I wish it'd been longer. Played through it like 3 times in a row too, something I don't think I've ever done.

Game of the generation for me.
 
Dec 27, 2019
6,068
Seattle
Honestly, I do find it bewildering that, in a period where lambasting modern, labrious, massive AAA open world checklist games is the norm in enthusiast circles such as ours, Hollow Knight seemingly gets a pass for doing more or less the same thing (treading upon that "bigger is better" game design mindset), but in 2D Metroidvania form.
Hollow Knight gets a pass for the same reason Breath Of The Wild does- it not only does this format extremely well, it does it organically and without the laborious feel of other games of this kind.

Look at how they each handle new areas of the game. Hollow Knight's half-filled maps, and Breath Of The Wild's towers. You get them and each gives you a bit of information, and then sends you out to find the rest. The games don't just slam a bunch of icons on the map. They don't fill your quest log with this areas quests. They don't overwhelm you with info and tasks.

Yes, they're both sprawling open world games, but they don't do a million-and-one icons and checklists like so many other games like this. They give you a glimpse of the world and and make discovering and exploring every nook and cranny of the world a delightful and rewarding experience.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,203
Despite it being tied for my 2017 GOTY, I've honestly always felt that too much of a good thing really can happen, and it does happen with that game. It got even more difficult to replay once all of the (good) DLC was released as well. Other than having more Stag points, I don't know how they could remedy the situation. Fast travel seems almost blasphemous in this kind of game, but the map is so large that just this once I could see it being justified. A more refined map system might be enough though too.
 

badnewsbeers

Member
Dec 10, 2017
430
Ontario, Canada
I loved it, but I definitely got the bad ending just to finish it. 15 hrs is a good length for this sort of game imo. It's too big to remember otherwise, too long to get places, etc
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,322
Hollow Knight is a large game to explore, but by no means is it "bloated". Every single biome has areas worth poking around in, and the enemy layouts are unique in each section. Also, saying that the rooms in the biomes are nondescript - LOL - did we play the same game?
 
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Aurc

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
I wouldn't consider 28 hrs to finish a game as bloated but just right, a lot metroidvanias are only 10-12 hrs and always wished they were longer, hollow knight is just right in size
It's obviously quite subjective, but personally, I feel that 28h is quite substantial for this particular genre, and that figure skyrockets if you factor in completionism. I'm actually curious if there are other Metroidvanias of a similar length and size.
I have tried a few times to come back to it but I can't figure out where I am or what to do next. I don't have the muscle memory to even attempt the boss fight I'm currently trying (Watcher Knights, just not in me - I have since read they are not mandatory apparently) so I thought I might try and soldier on. Can I get to the surface for some sort of direction or NPC to tell me vague instructions?
Elderbug (the NPC next to the bench) in Dirtmouth (the initial starting town) gives you a hint as to where you should be heading next.

As for the boss fight you're on, I do recall it being somewhat overwhelming at first, but if you have the Grub charm that allows you to gain Soul when taking damage, plus the one for fast healing, and the one that increases the amount of Soul gained from striking enemies, you can essentially "cheese" the fight with an OP charm build that way. Several bosses can't seem to damage you fast and consistently enough to overtake the rate at which you gain Soul and heal. I'm wondering how effective a build like this can be with the more difficult bosses that come later on, however.
I think it having a souls' run mechanic ruins its pacing a lot.
That's another thing: at first, I liked the retrieval mechanic being present in HK, but after awhile, it just became routine. It's seemingly never difficult to kill your shadow and retrieve your Geo, it's just the trek over to it that makes it a pain. I only ever permanently lost my Geo once, and it was because I was being a goofball and trying to rush a segment.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,796
JP
This game and Fallen Order would have benefited greatly from not using the Souls death-progression-loss-respawn mechanic.
 

Lylo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,169
Out of all the criticism this game get, like, too punishing, bad map system, weird save design, etc, i think bloated is the only one that doesn't make any sense to me.

I personally find the game perfect, so i can't relate.
 

Deleted member 2317

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,072
I played it for 60+ hours and honestly I wish it'd been longer. Played through it like 3 times in a row too, something I don't think I've ever done.

Game of the generation for me.
While I haven't played it three times, it did take me nearly fifty hours to complete what I could and honestly I still want more and I'll definitely go back to it and do a second run before Silk Song.

One of the crowned best of the genre imo. Can't say I agree with the negatives.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
I didn't want such a magnificent game to end tbh
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,586
The world size was just right for the type of game it was trying to be. I don't care if other metroidvanias are shorter.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,963
North Carolina
I completely agree. It lasted far too long. They should have ditched the souls mechanic and threw in a few fast travel points. Can't wait for the next game which will most assuredly be shorter due to its DLC nature.
 
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Aurc

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Hollow Knight gets a pass for the same reason Breath Of The Wild does- it not only does this format extremely well, it does it organically and without the laborious feel of other games of this kind.

Look at how they each handle new areas of the game. Hollow Knight's half-filled maps, and Breath Of The Wild's towers. You get them and each gives you a bit of information, and then sends you out to find the rest. The games don't just slam a bunch of icons on the map. They don't fill your quest log with this areas quests. They don't overwhelm you with info and tasks.

Yes, they're both sprawling open world games, but they don't do a million-and-one icons and checklists like so many other games like this. They give you a glimpse of the world and and make discovering and exploring every nook and cranny of the world a delightful and rewarding experience.
Hmm... yeah, that's a pretty suitable explanation that makes sense. Fair enough. When you put it that way, I can more easily understand why someone might find a game like this less overwhelming, less "bloaty" than your standard Horizon Zero Dawn, Mass Effect: Andromeda, or Days Gone type open world games.
Hollow Knight is a large game to explore, but by no means is it "bloated". Every single biome has areas worth poking around in, and the enemy layouts are unique in each section. Also, saying that the rooms in the biomes are nondescript - LOL - did we play the same game?
There were only so many times I could see discarded bug shells and other such refuse pasted around that I truly lost my sense of direction, wondering if I was going in circles at certain points where the area map was not yet available. There are structures, buildings, and NPCs, sure, but those are very few and far between. Most of the time, the backgrounds tend to look very samey within the biomes, and I did get why -- it's an indie game striving for crazy scale and vastness of content, so compromises have to be made somewhere.
This game and Fallen Order would have benefited greatly from not using the Souls death-progression-loss-respawn mechanic.
I will say that at least with Hollow Knight, it seemed to fit the world and atmosphere more, even if the execution wasn't Soulsborne tier. It was so, so pointless and shoehorned in Fallen Order.
Good luck with pantheon of hallownest. Shit's nuts.
Yeah, I believe that. You can at least practice each individual boss by themselves until you get them down pat though, right?
Out of all the criticism this game get, like, too punishing, bad map system, weird save design, etc, i think bloated is the only one that doesn't make any sense to me.

I personally find the game perfect, so i can't relate.
I took no issue with any of that, personally. The game felt no more punishing to me than something like Super Metroid. Map system? Eh, it did its job. Save design? What, having to use benches?
 

DarkFlame92

Member
Nov 10, 2017
5,642
I couldnt get enough of Hollow Knight to be honest. It didnt seem bloated to me,its huge world left me very surprised again and again
 

Pascal

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,228
Parts Unknown
Outside of maybe one or two more fast travel points, Hollow Knight never felt too big or "bloated" to me in any way. In fact, I'd have been fine with more.

Can't wait for Silksong.
This. Never felt bloated to me at all. I loved how huge the world was, it felt like I had so much to find and explore. And the world itself was so well designed and The Knight controlled so well that I feel like the giant world size was justified.
 

Oaklight

Avenger
Jun 16, 2018
933
I completely agree that Hollow Knight is far longer than I personally would like it to be. It took me a long time to pinpoint exactly what I disliked about it when I first beat it a while back, but eventually I realized that Hollow Knight was just too slow for me. I love the Metroidvania genre and one of my favorite things about these games is how fast paced they are and how fun it is to constantly be unlocking new things that make you more powerful and let you do cool stuff and explore new areas. Hollow Knight however just does not do for me what the Metroids and the Igavanias do for me. Hollow Knight is absolutely a great game, but not a game that I personally enjoyed very much.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,322
There were only so many times I could see discarded bug shells and other such refuse pasted around that I truly lost my sense of direction, wondering if I was going in circles at certain points where the area map was not yet available. There are structures, buildings, and NPCs, sure, but those are very few and far between. Most of the time, the backgrounds tend to look very samey within the biomes, and I did get why -- it's an indie game striving for crazy scale and vastness of content, so compromises have to be made somewhere.
I think you and I had vastly different experiences. By the end of the game, I was able to get around and navigate while barely consulting the map. Its rare that I have to check the map and I'm instantly like "oh right". I also disagree with the statement "it's an indie game ... so compromises have to be made somewhere" considering this game is best in the Metroidvania class for biomes, atmosphere, backdrops, and locations. It downplays the spectacular work Team Cherry did designing the world.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
I more or less agree with the TC. Hollow Knight is a game I respect, but it isn't a game I love.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,963
North Carolina
I think one thing that stands out for the length being a negative is of all my favorite Metroidvanias they were all on the shorter side and made for really great games to replay on a whim. I can't replay Hollow Knight, its just too long for that. Metroid, Castlevania, all easily digestible and beatable in like 3 days for me. Hollow Knight just makes me want to go play something else over replaying, even with it being such a great game. Really lengthy Metroidvanias just aren't my thing.
 

CrabDust

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,257
Bigger doesn't always mean better, but HK does exploration better than any Metroidvania and one reason is because of the map size and limited fast travel.

So I totally disagree with your reasoning, but strangely I agree with your premise. I though that it wore out it's welcome too, but only in that I found the difficulty ramps up too much towards the end and of course in the DLC.
 

Nabs

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,692
I think one thing that stands out for the length being a negative is of all my favorite Metroidvanias they were all on the shorter side and made for really great games to replay on a whim. I can't replay Hollow Knight, its just too long for that. Metroid, Castlevania, all easily digestible and beatable in like 3 days for me. Hollow Knight just makes me want to go play something else over replaying, even with it being such a great game.
I've replayed HK so many times, it's probably my favorite to go back to. Super easy to get going since I know what I'm doing.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
Issues with the map system and cartographer come up on here all the time and I really don't understand it. I had no absolutely zero issues finding Cornifer in any of the levels and the fast travel system was perfectly adequate for getting around Hollownest. I say this as somebody with little to no experience in the Metroidvania genre too so this isn't some kind of "git gud" kind of statement.
 
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Aurc

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
I don't see how it overstays its welcome when you can beat it at 60%.
It just keeps going, and going. Just when you're beginning to hit your stride in one area, here comes another area to stumble into and fumble around in. Many likely see that as a positive, but I wasn't feeling it too much. I was happy to finally discover every area, because it meant that I could then use my abilities to find more Grubs and charms within existing areas, rather than just finding... more areas, that branch into more areas still.
I completely agree that Hollow Knight is far longer than I personally would like it to be. It took me a long time to pinpoint exactly what I disliked about it when I first beat it a while back, but eventually I realized that Hollow Knight was just too slow for me. I love the Metroidvania genre and one of my favorite things about these games is how fast paced they are and how fun it is to constantly be unlocking new things that make you more powerful and let you do cool stuff and explore new areas. Hollow Knight however just does not do for me what the Metroids and the Igavanias do for me. Hollow Knight is absolutely a great game, but not a game that I personally enjoyed very much.
Spot-on, totally feel you on this one. The Knight seems to get a useful upgrade at intervals of 2-3 hours of gameplay, which is just too infrequent. Comparatively, Samus' ascent is quick and swift, she's constantly getting more powerful.
I think you and I had vastly different experiences. By the end of the game, I was able to get around and navigate while barely consulting the map. Its rare that I have to check the map and I'm instantly like "oh right". I also disagree with the statement "it's an indie game ... so compromises have to be made somewhere" considering this game is best in the Metroidvania class for biomes, atmosphere, backdrops, and locations. It downplays the spectacular work Team Cherry did designing the world.
The line about compromises wasn't meant to be a dig, to be clear: Team Cherry still did such a ridiculously bang-up job, all things considered. I think I remember hearing that their team only consisted of a few people? Crazy impressive, regardless of how I feel about certain aspects of the experience. All I'm saying is that, considering everything going on in this game, it makes sense to me that they'd have to let up in some ways, due to the scale and design. It's certainly not the enemy variety, nor the music, nor the gameplay, but in my eyes, the backgrounds and room designs were a weak area. I would have preferred a world 3/4 the current size, if it meant getting backgrounds with greater differentiation.
I think one thing that stands out for the length being a negative is of all my favorite Metroidvanias they were all on the shorter side and made for really great games to replay on a whim. I can't replay Hollow Knight, its just too long for that. Metroid, Castlevania, all easily digestible and beatable in like 3 days for me. Hollow Knight just makes me want to go play something else over replaying, even with it being such a great game. Really lengthy Metroidvanias just aren't my thing.
As I alluded to in the OP, the GBA Metroids are so great precisely because of that: they're sub-5 hour games, but damn if they don't make the absolute best of those 5 hours. I don't think I could replay Hollow Knight in the same way I can replay Fusion or Zero Mission. It's just too big.
 

ryushe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,813
I absolutely adore HK, but you know what else sucks? Having to have a charm equipped so your map is even usable.

I get what they were trying to do, but just make it a togglable option.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
I absolutely adore HK, but you know what else sucks? Having to have a charm equipped so your map is even usable.

I get what they were trying to do, but just make it a togglable option.
I agree with this one for sure. Having the map tied to a charm was a dumb decision. It just limits your build options and they could have easily had a toggle.
 

ZeroDS

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
3,419
I feel like HK is as long as you make it. Other posters have already mentioned but it's a game you can finish at 60% and be done with it. It's also an incredibly popular speed run game.

I can see how the expansions can make it seem bloated but for me personally I really didn't want it to end.
 

Lightjolly

Member
Oct 30, 2019
4,573
I agree, it drags on for too long and adds unneeded padding (Looking for enough souls for the Dreamnail). Amazing game but not perfect.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
I disagree with your negative points -- Preferring a shorter game is subjective, but when you say the areas blend together and all look/feel the same I definitely disagree there. The game has a primarily gray/blue coloration by design, sure, but each area definitely has a distinct aesthetic, with its own soundtrack and enemy types.

I think Hollow Knight is one of the best games in the "Metroidvania" genre, and one of the reasons I feel that way is its relatively open structure. It doesn't funnel you into playing the game in a particular way or in a particular order as much as most other games of its kind do, and I like that openness very much. When playing for the first time I frequently felt like I wasn't sure whether or not I was "supposed" to be where I was -- and as a gamer I think that's one of the best feelings to experience.

It also has immense variety in terms of enemies and bosses, dwarfing every other game I can think of
 
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JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,216
Texas
I wish it were longer to be honest. As long as there are new areas to explore, new bosses to kill, and more secrets to find I could play it indefinitely.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,322
I agree with this one for sure. Having the map tied to a charm was a dumb decision. It just limits your build options and they could have easily had a toggle.
They could have easily given the player one less charm slot and had the knight show up on the map permanently and people wouldn't be bellyaching because they would be none the wiser. The put in a charm for the knight's position on the map and balanced the game with the number of charm slots they felt necessary with that in mind.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,003
Yep. First time I played this game, I gave up after 18 hours. I had most of the power ups, but I didn't know it then.

Picked it back up this past month and I've played it for 28 hours now, around the exact same place you are, and I'm tired of it. I don't feel particularly enticed to finish it (the souls-ish storytelling leaves me completely unengaged) and honestly, it could have stopped after 18 hours. There's been pretty much nothing new gameplay-wise.

It's "good", but it's bloated and nowhere near as tight as the genre's classics.
 

Pascal

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,228
Parts Unknown
Y'all should watch this if you have the time. Learn a bit about world design and why Hollow Knight nails it.



I absolutely adore HK, but you know what else sucks? Having to have a charm equipped so your map is even usable.

I get what they were trying to do, but just make it a togglable option.
Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of this either, but it wasn't really a big deal for me.