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Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
They could have easily given the player one less charm slot and had the knight show up on the map permanently and people wouldn't be bellyaching because they would be none the wiser. The put in a charm for the knight's position on the map and balanced the game with the number of charm slots they felt necessary with that in mind.

I'm definitely a champion of this game, and I praise it every chance I get, but whenever it comes up I do point out that I think this is the one clear design flaw it has. It's not a critical design flaw, obviously, it's not even that big a deal -- But tying what I view as basic UI functionality to a charm when pretty much every other charm has to do with combat or maneuverability just doesn't feel particularly coherent to me. It's true what you say that if they made it permanent and included one less charm slot no one would complain, but to make a more extreme example what if you had to equip a single slot charm in order to be able to pause the game? Would you defend it on the same grounds?

Anyway, it's absolutely not a big deal, it's more of a nitpick, it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the game at all.
 
OP
OP
Aurc

Aurc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,890
Issues with the map system and cartographer come up on here all the time and I really don't understand it. I had no absolutely zero issues finding Cornifer in any of the levels and the fast travel system was perfectly adequate for getting around Hollownest. I say this as somebody with little to no experience in the Metroidvania genre too so this isn't some kind of "git gud" kind of statement.
Nah, and I don't take it as a "git gud" kind of statement, since I wouldn't associate skill with finding Cornifer or making it to the fast travel stations. It's not finding him or the fast travel stations that I took issue with, those were easy. I just think the world was too expansive for its own good. The maps did a serviceable job, and I too find it odd if people are exaggerating how "bad" they are.
Yes you can, there are also some cool bosses that are unique to the pantheons.
Great! The boss fights are the most interesting and intense parts, to be sure.
I absolutely adore HK, but you know what else sucks? Having to have a charm equipped so your map is even usable.

I get what they were trying to do, but just make it a togglable option.
It's a baffling design choice that discourages charm variety and experimentation. I might also place the Gathering Swarm (gathers Geo without the Knight having to manually walk over every coin) in that same category. These should've just been early direct upgrades, not charms.
Yep. First time I played this game, I gave up after 18 hours. I had most of the power ups, but I didn't know it then.

Picked it back up this past month and I've played it for 28 hours now, around the exact same place you are, and I'm tired of it. I don't feel particularly enticed to finish it (the souls-ish storytelling leaves me completely unengaged) and honestly, it could have stopped after 18 hours. There's been pretty much nothing new gameplay-wise.

It's "good", but it's bloated and nowhere near as tight as the genre's classics.
The gameplay doesn't iterate upon itself often enough. I'd love to see increased frequency of upgrade acquisition, because you get the dash and wall jump super early, and those are what you mainly use for the remainder of the game.
 

Cup O' Tea?

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,603
They could have easily given the player one less charm slot and had the knight show up on the map permanently and people wouldn't be bellyaching because they would be none the wiser. The put in a charm for the knight's position on the map and balanced the game with the number of charm slots they felt necessary with that in mind.
That's one way to look at it but I would argue there is no need to reduce slots. The game's balance wasn't ruined if you chose not to use the map charm. They could have scrapped it entirely and the game would still be balanced. Reducing the slots would also limit build options and force them to muck around with the notch system they were using to balance out the more powerful charms.

Nah, and I don't take it as a "git gud" kind of statement, since I wouldn't associate skill with finding Cornifer or making it to the fast travel stations. It's not finding him or the fast travel stations that I took issue with, those were easy. I just think the world was too expansive for its own good. The maps did a serviceable job, and I too find it odd if people are exaggerating how "bad" they are.
Must admit I didn't personally find the game to be too long/big but I'm not very experienced in the Metroidvania genre so I can understand that people who are experienced in these kind of games, might have become accustomed to them being shorter, more concise experiences.
 
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Deleted member 3465

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,240
Space
I'm definitely a champion of this game, and I praise it every chance I get, but whenever it comes up I do point out that I think this is the one clear design flaw it has. It's not a critical design flaw, obviously, it's not even that big a deal -- But tying what I view as basic UI functionality to a charm when pretty much every other charm has to do with combat or maneuverability just doesn't feel particularly coherent to me. It's true what you say that if they made it permanent and included one less charm slot no one would complain, but to make a more extreme example what if you had to equip a single slot charm in order to be able to pause the game? Would you defend it on the same grounds?

Anyway, it's absolutely not a big deal, it's more of a nitpick, it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the game at all.

I completely agree with you. Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games and actually the compass-thing was my biggest and pretty much only nitpick. That speaks volumes of the quality as it isn't a big deal as you said.. but it'll always stick out as a weird design decision as far as i'm concerned.
 

Driggonny

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,170
I definitely felt like the game dragged on at a certain point. It's not innately bad, I obviously enjoyed and beat the game, but like 10 hours (might be an exaggeration, I don't quite remember exactly) between nail upgrades is a lot even for me just fumbling around
 

Sterok

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,084
Traversal is a slog, both regular movement and the fast travel. That's where the bloat comes from, because it's not fun and takes too long to backtrack or return to where you just died. It's the primary reason I can't think too highly of the game even if I enjoy it for the most part.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,583
I played it for about 8 hours and was completely unmoved by it. Slow upgrades; basic, dull combat; samey environments; the much discussed map issues. No sir I don't like it. Maybe I'll go back one day but my god do I disagree with the aplomb it has gotten based on what I've played.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
My biggest issue too. I got REALLY tired of backtracking a millions times towards the end of the game, and eventually started referencing a filled out map.
It kinda makes me think the developers wanted it so the player is traveling deeper and deeper into a hostile, foreign world filled with networks of tunnels dug out by bugs.
 

Baybob

Member
Oct 4, 2019
151
I think giving the player character the option of showing your place on the map was an intentional design choice, with the intention of pushing the player to memorize the maps more thoroughly. I can say for me I wore the charm when I was uncovering a new place and would remove it in a place where I was a bit more familiar with, thus decreaseing my reliance on the map. I bet now hollow knight is one of the game worlds where I have the best mental model of how the world is actually laid out. I do understand though while it worked for me, it didn't work for a lot of other people, so hopefully they can find a better way to implement something akin to it in silksong
 

SammyJ9

Member
Dec 22, 2019
3,956
I didn't think Hollow Knight dragged at all, it's actually one of the few times I feel like I really got enough 'game' in a metroidvania for my tastes. I love Super Metroid, SOTN, pretty much all of the GBA/DS vanias, Axiom Verge, etc., but very nearly every one of them I feel like was too short. I feel like my personal wheelhouse for metroidvania length is 15-30 hours, as opposed to the 5-15 that seems to be more common.

Hollow Knight is amazing, plain and simple. It's my third favorite game of 2017 (after BOTW and Persona 5) and in my top 10 games of the decade, it's just that good.
 

Duty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
235
Agreed, I loved the boss fights, but travel in this game is a pain, Dreamgate helped a lot but was to damm late when I got it and isn't enough for the size of the map even with the stations.

Edit:
Nighmare King Grimm was the most amazing 2D bossfight ever.
 

Zeroth

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
790
It may be just me, but I much prefer the difficulty found in Metroid or Castlevania: interesting bosses, overworld that has dangers but nothing extreme. Hollow Knight's mechanics don't give me the same sensation of exploration as them.
 
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-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
It's a huge game that I wish was twice as big. I never wanted it to end. The map and travel system mechanics are fine.
 

Alastor3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,297
I wouldn't consider 28 hrs to finish a game as bloated but just right, a lot metroidvanias are only 10-12 hrs and always wished they were longer, hollow knight is just right in size
28h is still quite long, heck some RPG are that long.

The main problem is the last part of the game, the last dungeon and the last boss
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,017
I'll go so far as to say I hate Hollow Knight yeah. It's probably a good game but quality doesn't interest me when it just isn't fun. I can't stand exploring in games.

Obviously I'm not the target audience so it's no biggie but I'm with you OP though my opinions would be even harsher.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Hollow Knight is long compared to Super Metroid, but it's pretty much the same length or even on the short side of most of the entries in the other genre it gets compared to, Souls-likes.

I can see why a pure metroidvania fan might think it dragged, but as someone who loves both those genres I think it's the perfect mix that brings both together and is the idea length for that. My favorite thing about it was how much there is to find in the world, and how I was consistently stumbling on entirely different areas for the entire 25-30 play time. The scope makes Hallownest (and Lordran) feel more open and real than Zebes or Dracula's castle which I really appreciated.

Fuck I can't WAIT to get lost in Silksong again.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,813
Brazil
Finished the game (Not 100%) in 25 hours. I think it's an okay playtime, definitely doesn't feel like overstaying its welcome imo.

Tho i don't think it's the 10/10 experience some people claim it to be, either. Biggest gripe with the game is how the Nailsmith is important versus how easy is to miss him, making the game a lot harder than it needed to be.

I liked how the teleport system worked and i definitely didn't wanted more acessible fast travel. Leave fast travel everywhere stuff for AAA open world games.

Also didn't had a problem with the map system. It's okay.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I'm definitely a champion of this game, and I praise it every chance I get, but whenever it comes up I do point out that I think this is the one clear design flaw it has. It's not a critical design flaw, obviously, it's not even that big a deal -- But tying what I view as basic UI functionality to a charm when pretty much every other charm has to do with combat or maneuverability just doesn't feel particularly coherent to me. It's true what you say that if they made it permanent and included one less charm slot no one would complain, but to make a more extreme example what if you had to equip a single slot charm in order to be able to pause the game? Would you defend it on the same grounds?

Anyway, it's absolutely not a big deal, it's more of a nitpick, it didn't hurt my enjoyment of the game at all.
I've made this analogy before, but Nier Automata has a very similar system called chips except it makes you equip every single part of your HUD (including some entirely superfluous options that do nothing but clutter it up) as well as things such as easy mode assists and subtitles along with your normal combat upgrades and I absolutely love it. One of the most memorable moments in the early game is when you're playing around with those equips you realize that you have something called an OS Chip that came pre-equipped and removing it causes an instant game over and credits roll.

So no I don't totally agree, I'm a big fan of having something that would otherwise be very video game-y and non-diegetic be explained by a gameplay system instead.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
I've made this analogy before, but Nier Automata has a very similar system called chips except it makes you equip every single part of your HUD (including some entirely superfluous options that do nothing but clutter it up) as well as things such as easy mode assists and subtitles along with your normal combat upgrades and I absolutely love it. One of the most memorable moments in the early game is when you're playing around with those equips you realize that you have something called an OS Chip that came pre-equipped and removing it causes an instant game over and credits roll.

So no I don't totally agree, I'm a big fan of having something that would otherwise be very video game-y and non-diegetic be explained by a gameplay system instead.

It says the charm "whispers your location to you" (or something like that). That could be done by an item that's not a charm. Having it be a charm when every other charm is combat/movement just isn't something I've ever liked -- again, though, not a big deal. /shrug
 

Tpallidum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,158
the game seems more about getting lost, finding the cartographer, and consulting the map than it does getting you through a mid-sized area at a brisk, reasonable pace.
Spot on! Just another way of saying it has a shit map system. Era has a huge boner for it's intentionally ass-backwards designed map system though. smfh

I'll say this in every HK thread: excellent, excellent game. Best game of 2017 and deserving of most of the praise it gets... but the map system is a load of horse shit.

I will die on this hill
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Spot on! Just another way of saying it has a shit map system. Era has a huge boner for it's intentionally ass-backwards designed map system though. smfh

I'll say this in every HK thread: excellent, excellent game. Best game of 2017 and deserving of most of the praise it gets... but the map system is a load of horse shit.

I will die on this hill
How do you feel about the best map system ever made, Dark Souls?
 

Waxwing

Member
Jan 25, 2018
434
I suspect this is just a case of personal preference. I loved discovering biome after biome, secret after secret. It's rare enough for games to have me legitimately hooked to the end, but that's how HK was for me. Art design, level design, music- all very memorable. Played about 30 hours and got to 96ish completion of base game loving every minute. Will go back and do the dlc if I get hungry for it before hillsong.

And though I'd heard people criticize the map system, it turned out to be one of my favorite parts of the design.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I completely agree. It lasted far too long. They should have ditched the souls mechanic and threw in a few fast travel points. Can't wait for the next game which will most assuredly be shorter due to its DLC nature.
A few months ago they released an update that they were still in the thick of development and had just surpassed Hollow Knight in number of enemy types (HK has like 165 or something and they showed off #166 in Silksong) so I wouldn't bet on it.

The map system was one of the best features you heathens.
Based Team Cherry are bringing it back for Silksong despite how much Era begs for it to go, I love them.
 

IDreamOfHime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,441
Totally agree, the game is great but it had very little new to say for about a 3rd of length. Needed a proper map too.
 

MeltedDreams

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,956
Hard to think about single negative after have finished Hollow Knight two times, other than having to equip charm for your map. A absolutely love the exploration. This game makes perfect use of audio cues, thanks to which cartographer was never an issue. You also often hear hidden grubs crying for help or hidden enemies behind a destructible wall with some secret. Playing with headphones is great!
We need more games without handholding these days. Silksong can't come soon enough.
 

Moara

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,870
Disagree entirely. I played nearly 40 hours of that game and I never felt like a second was wasted.
 

shuno

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
625
It is pretty much perfect.
Regarding the charms/special attacks I could see some improvement and more viable options/impact.

But overall... I wish it would be even longer. Such a masterpiece.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
My issue wasn't even the map system but the lack of a decent save-and-quit option. When you pair that with the large areas and slow traversal, the game doesn't have a lot of respect for player time, and feels like it was designed to only be played by people with far more spare time than I have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Hollow Knight is as long as it needs to be, and the astonishment of bumbling into a whole new zone dozens of hours in, saying, "How did I miss all that?" is one of its central pleasures.

It's such a breath of fresh air when the so-called Metroidvania has become excessively conventionalized. You play a game like Guacamelee! or Ori and the Blind Forest (which are both very good at what they do), or even go back to an older but slightly unorthodox one like Metroid Fusion, and for all their virtues and stabs at originality, there is just something extremely predictable to the density of the locks and keys and the scope of movement options you can expect. SteamWorld Dig 2 dodges this slightly with the internal contiguity of its zones, since the corridors don't come off as corridors, but even it feels abruptly cut short in some places as a regression to a 10-to-15-hour norm. The particulars shift from game to game, but once you've played enough of these, the overall rhythm of uncovering a map and hitting its major act breaks or embedded dungeons starts to come off as something the developers take for granted. It doesn't help that the term "Metroidvania" (which was always better aimed at the Castlevania side of the family than at Metroid and its direct descendants) has become diluted to the point of being applied to short and barely exploratory games like Shantae and the Pirate's Curse, which is competent enough, but so by-the-book (and easily swept in well under 10 hours) that for me the experience hardly registered.

You know Hollow Knight hit its target well when pretty much every complaint I've ever heard about it—the map system, the deliberate lack of signposting to distinguish a "critical path" from its side branches, the overall scope and length—just serves to reiterate why the game resonates so strongly with players like myself, for whom the experience was rapturous.

Like BotW—or for that matter, Zero Mission (by design) and Super Metroid (perhaps not entirely by design)—Hollow Knight is also incredibly flexible because of its openness to route discovery and sequence breaking. This means it permits a huge spread of clear times from frantic world records to patient completionism. It's extremely roomy in permitting a wide range of highly individuated pathways and personal experiences, in a way that is practically unprecedented in this genre, and it wouldn't have done this so successfully if the sheer quantity of play-space wasn't there to support it. You can't compare this versatility at all to AAA open-world bloat that is nevertheless locked down and compartmentalized into waypoints, mission structures, and story-based gating.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
My issue wasn't even the map system but the lack of a decent save-and-quit option. When you pair that with the large areas and slow traversal, the game doesn't have a lot of respect for player time, and feels like it was designed to only be played by people with far more spare time than I have.
Huh? The game is like Dark Souls in that it's constantly auto saving after every action you do. You can quit at any time and you'll never lose progress.
 

Deleted member 56752

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 15, 2019
8,699
I disliked the map, getting lost system and immediately dropped it. Maybe that challenge is exciting for people who have 100 hours to burn, but I find it tedious
 

Aprikurt

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,782
Too bloated? What, so I could finish it quicker? And move onto the next game that hasn't half of Hollow Knight's originality, charm, or depth? Nah man. I'm good.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
Spot on! Just another way of saying it has a shit map system. Era has a huge boner for it's intentionally ass-backwards designed map system though. smfh

I'll say this in every HK thread: excellent, excellent game. Best game of 2017 and deserving of most of the praise it gets... but the map system is a load of horse shit.

I will die on this hill
Nobody has a "boner" for the map system. Recognizing that the map system is well-designed for how the game plays is just giving props to good game design. Game design is objective. It's like when people complain about breaking weapons in BOTW or tank controls in RE4. Everybody is within their right to like or dislike the design decision, but they all perfectly fit into the designs of their games and changing any of them would trivialize massive elements of each game.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
No, it kicks you back to the previous bench, which is often some distance away. Dark Souls saves your exact position.
If, like me, you've got limited free time, that makes a difference.
Surely unlimted free homeward bones is bigger time save than the generally pretty minuscule amount of progress you lose by warping back to the last bench with all your stuff intact and all your progress marked on the map. I can't imagine you could ever be more than a 60 seconds sprint from the last bench once you've been through the area once and know what to expect.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
Surely unlimted free homeward bones is bigger time save than the generally pretty minuscule amount of progress you lose by warping back to the last bench with all your stuff intact and all your progress marked on the map. I can't imagine you could ever be more than a 60 seconds sprint from the last bench once you've been through the area once and know what to expect.
The game can also use suspend & resume and be cheesed that way as well.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Nobody has a "boner" for the map system. Recognizing that the map system is well-designed for how the game plays is just giving props to good game design. Game design is objective. It's like when people complain about breaking weapons in BOTW or tank controls in RE4. Everybody is within their right to like or dislike the design decision, but they all perfectly fit into the designs of their games and changing any of them would trivialize massive elements of each game.

I'm not sure how anyone could come to the conclusion that the map setup is well-designed for Hollow Knight's design. It is counterproductive to what the player is expected to do, and I don't think the whole "devs expected you to get lost" is a good argument against a solid map system. The expects you to explore AND memorize where you went (that's a tall order considering everyone's memory is different + the early trials of you dying a lot makes this quite difficult). The dark and similar environments, while atmospheric as fuck, also contributes to the issue of not knowing where you are (which is very interesting that Silksong's colour choices stand out a lot more. In contrast, I already have a lot more locations burnt into my memory than I did for Hollow Knight).
 

sandboxgod

Attempting to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Austin, Texas
I bought this game shortly a bit after launch to support the dev because the Art and animations look great. But its way too long for my taste I like to know where I am and where I'm going. Game wasn't made for me and I'm fine with that. For gamers that like to spend a lot of time exploring and fighting unfair bosses this is right up your alley
Granted I probably only spent like 1 hr on it; just wasnt grabbed by it