-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
LTTP MGSV - quiet’s depiction is making me very uncomfortable
- Thread starter FliX
- Start date
The Boss, EVA, Sniper Wolf, Dr. Naomi, Meryl, Dr. Strangelove, Paz, I could go on.
All of them were strong and memorable characters with pretty powerful stories.
Totally forgot that, thanks!
Btw Quiet could/should have had an additional backstory of her being raised by cats as a baby or something like that. It would explain her "displaying her ass to snake in the helicopter". Also they could have some agry looks/ aggression against Diamond Dog and vice versa for comedic relief.
i try not to over analyze stuff like this. it's fan service and perhaps kojima misread how some of his audience would react, i certainly cringe a little every time i'm in the copter with quiet but i also can't look away until it's time to set up the next mission. but that kind explains all of mgs, you've got eva's outro for the boss in mgs3, but you've also got sigint's fecal nightmare in there too. i kinda appreciate all the little peeks into kojima's psyche that's littered throughout. he's an auteur that's not afraid to bare all, so-to-speak.
Kojima was always kind of sexist with his females one way or another.
Quiet is just him no longer giving a shit.
Quiet is just him no longer giving a shit.
I heard that she is
a bossfight
The option is given
after you fight her. You beat her and then are given the option of either recruiting her or not, with your two teammates arguing for each side of the issue.
That's about it, which is still really bad since those are the only
non-imaginary
Quiet's awesome, it's just kind of a bummer Stefanie Joosten is a better model than voice actor. She doesn't speak much by design, obviously, but the few lines she does have aren't great performance-wise. Also torn on the patch from ages after launch that lets you continue to use her as a companion, but seeing as that was long after Kojima's departure from the project, it's easy to mentally put that into non-canon territory and enjoy how useful she is on missions.
MGSV's treatment of Quiet was frustrating as hell. The ultra-revealing outfit is silly enough as it is, but the thing that takes it into "gross" territory is the way the (scripted) camera treats her, taking every opportunity to pause and ogle like it's controlled by the fucking Tex Avery wolf. It's made even more frustrating by the fact that she's one of the more interesting characters in the game once they give her something to do beyond helicopter lap dances.
Nier Automata is a good recent example of a game that has "fanservicey" character designs without being lecherous about it.
Nier Automata is a good recent example of a game that has "fanservicey" character designs without being lecherous about it.
Thanks. tbh, I'd rather a game have no women than poorly depicted ones.
Regardless of the narrative weight she does or does not carry, she is arguably the best companion out of the supporting units.
Even un-upgraded she can neutralise an entire enemy outpost as long as you're patient enough, or act as a diversion to enable your infiltration. When you get a silencer for her sniper rifle as well as the tranq rifle she can be invaluable on certain missions.
Looking back it still amazes me they chose to remove her post "A Quiet Exit" by design even though the secret ending also breaks the narrative. A Bizarre choice that I'm glad they rectified.
I am reminded of Dan Olson's video where he talks about Megan Fox's character in Transformers and how the movie has "cinemanarrative dissonance". Quiet is the same. She's a great character on text, but she is constantly framed as a piece of meat for the male player to gaze at.
I never understood this argument. Overpowered companions are annoying. I don't want anyone stealing my kills. What's the point of getting a game if you don't want to play it yourself? =P
OP
OP
I don't understand how depicting Quiet in such a misogynist fashion is fan service?
If this is was done in previous games swell I feel like 'oh, there has always been ugly misogyny in MGS games' a very lame excuse to continue it as societal norms evolve.
If this is was done in previous games swell I feel like 'oh, there has always been ugly misogyny in MGS games' a very lame excuse to continue it as societal norms evolve.
He clearly has no respect for women and just loves their bodies. He made games where you could molest every female NPC, ffs. And then there's the Beauty & Beast corps, who all have incredibly fucked up tragic pasts, suffering from PTSD and so on, and then he lets the player ogle them as they pose sexily for the camera.
A lot of bad examples there.
- The Boss: a fluke. His initial vision was to have her breast exposed and that the breast would laugh out loud, but someone else reigned him and told him no. Kojima without an editor is a dumpster fire. XD
- EVA: she's a good character but it was still ridiculous how she'd just walk around with her tits out. A sexy spy being seductive is one thing, but anyone who'd get taken in by Eva would have to be the stupidest motherfucker on the planet. It was just an excuse to show T&A, as usual.
- Sniper Wolf: gratuitous cleavage in Alaska weather, because again "omg bewbs"
- Dr. Naomi: gratuitous cleavage in MGS4 because "beeeeewbs".
Starting to think the only females he doesn't objectify (or wanted to) were Olga and Sunny, and one of them is underage (wait, I guess it didn't stop him with Paz). Kojima's constant, and increasingly juvenile and misogynistic portrayals are insufferable, especially since he's not nearly the "creative genius" people claim he is.
I'd argue DOA characters at least know what they are. Zack is always trying to exploit or oggle them and they hit him and that's how the series handles characterization.
Kojima was desperate to make people think Quiet's existence was this high-brow thing while he knew deep down she was the result of his penis taking control of his creative process. There's a lot of sad things about MGSV and Kojima's last few years at Konami but the certainty to which he was convinced Quiet as a character would shut up all criticism is easily top five.
I haven't bought the game (yet) and I've only played MGS1 and Twin Snakes.
What's the fan service?
Boobs?
What's the fan service?
Boobs?
I can give him the benefit of the doubt due to the Konami asshatery during development and his past characters like Boss, EVA, Meryl, Emma, etc. being really dope. Still hilarious anyway.
Because sexualisation doesn't always equal misogyny. Some people seem to forget misogyny is hatred, contempt or prejudice of women. Tits and ass aren't instantly any of that unless there is evidence the creator/people involved feel that way. Making an argument of respect is different, but again, I think I supplied more than enough evidence on the previous page for why instantly tying anything to do with sex/nudity/sexualisation to you have no respect for women/males, is an incredibly detrimental and harmful way to handle a species, humanity, which is sexual both biologically and psychologically. Many parents, let alone individuals, cause themselves and their children tremendous anxiety/depression and an inability to deal with sex/sexuality/nudity because of their attitudes towards it. There is zero reports, or evidence, that Kojima, as a man, and as a person, does not respect or treat women how he would want to be treated. I don't even think anyone has said anything bad about him, guys included. His team, Kojima productions, seems to be varied in gender and many of them left Konami to follow in his footsteps. He seems to garner trust and people like working with him. Yes, things can sometimes be hidden, but Kojima has been making games for a long time and there hasn't even been a peep of controversy around him being a terrible/disrespectful person.
You can be abstinent/vehemently against all forms of the sex industry/sexualisation/nudity/gratification from objectification all you want personally, but trying to force the whole world to see things like you do will not be compatible with how much of life is formed around sex and sexual satisfaction. Many happy and well-adjusted people in life benefit greatly from having productive, consensual and enjoyable sex lives. Whether that is with a partner, on their own, whilst in pursuit of a partner/fuck buddies (your weekend Tinder hookups). Guys like visual stimulation, so things like Quiet, Bayonetta, Playboy, lad magazines, late night softcore pornos, actual pornos and more will always be part of humanity. As long as it's all consensual and everyone involved treated fairly, it's not going to go away as it isn't all instantly misogyny because the female body is involved. This shouldn't be a controversial statement to say, but males should be able to have sexual gratification, just as women should. I did say on the previous page the gaming industry is soo heavily skewed towards males it can be frustrating. However, these two paragraphs are more about trying to illustrate how every single thing in life that involves female nudity/sexualisation is not instantly misogyny. Disliking what Kojima has done with Quiet, and his silly statement about shame is not instantly misogyny. It's probably more about having taste, or not being impressed with in your face tits and ass.
Why care about definitions? Well, we live in a world these days where sometimes ad hominem gets thrown around like candy without people seemingly knowing the meanings behind the accusations/name-calling they do. Plus, I don't think it is healthy or constructive just how far some take it to try and purge every single outlet someone can have for sexual gratification by seemingly lumping it all together as hatred of women. The frustration of gaming being infested with sexual service for men should not be mixed up by saying sexual service for men is inherently misogyny. People do not make those arguments around women, probably because it's easier to attack visual stimulation than it is written. Plus, yes, real asshole men do give the whole gender a bad name. At a time where #metoo exists, I can understand the severe dislike of men. People should remain vigilant in keeping the accusations towards the real assholes though, rather than everyone who tries to say they like boobs and butts. Do keep in mind women who like dicks/straight men actually require said men to be interested in them too. That is how sex works. This isn't primary/grade school, so I'm sure everyone knows straight women do actually want guys to be interested in their boobs, butts and vaginas. Just consensually, and as and when they want said attraction/physical contact. Keep in mind Quiet is a video game character, it's no more fantasy than a women reading 50 shades of grey and getting stimulation from the BDSM, or even outright "torture porn" in that novel. Because it's written though, it doesn't seem as "real" as visual stimulation. The psychology today articles on the last page do a good brief job of covering why on average men prefer visual stimulation and women written/imagination based. Visual stimulation is always far more explicit than written, as visuals either involve real actors, or it involves computer generated graphics which are uncanny valley level now in their detail.
It's kind of like saying read a brutal violent novel, versus experience a brutal violent game/movie/tv show. What is more likely to churn stomachs? Description in text, if it's a skilled writer can still make an imagination run wild, hence why many DO prefer reading to watching. However, with all the special effects, CG and more we have these days, you can make brutal gore genuinely look real. Visual stimulation is often always going to lead to more of a sensory overload.
Last edited:
Her entire body.
She doesn't talk, so she just kinda does this all game.
The only good thing about Quiet's existence is that it gave us an all-time classic Hideo Kojima tweet
Pretty much.
I'm not against sex appeal being a part of a character, but in this game it doesn't feel earned. Whether or not she's clothed has little bearing on who she is, but the fact that she isn't takes away from her character more than it adds to it. The idea of having a character that breathes through her skin is just more Kojima nonsense. I love his games and fully embrace all the weird shit that goes down in them but even I was like, really?
Though it's also hard to tell if there was more to the character that he wasn't able to explore. Given that so much of MGSV is under-cooked, we shouldn't dismiss that as a possibility.
I don't think misogyny immediately equals hatred of women. Lots of straight men love women but don't see them as equals and that's still misogyny. Internalized sexism is a thing and I don't think those women hate other women so much as they've been taught prejudice by society. I agree that fanservice isn't immediately sexism, but objectification is. You can have a female character who is sexy and shows skin without being sexist, she just needs to have the same quality of characterization as male characters in that media. But I don't think Quiet falls into that category. She literally doesn't speak, it's very reminiscent of the "women are to be seen not heard" ideology. Her purpose is to be an object the players can ogle. I definitely agree with your point that showing the female body isn't sexism, but objectifying it in media where men aren't treated like that is sexist. If it's media like porn, I don't have a problem with a character like Quiet since men will be treated equally. But it's so frustrating to still see that treatment of exclusively women in other media not explicitly meant for sexual gratification.
I hope I made some sense here, I do appreciate your post and insight!
You sure spent a whole lot of words to "address" something no one has said. That with the mansplaining about what sexism and misogyny really is. Sigh, some things never change, I guess.
Quiet's depiction, as well as the B&B corps and many others, are straight-up sexist at best, misogynistic at worst, this has been explained in intricate detail over and over. Stop saying it's "really about prudishness" or throwing around your dictionary definitions, please.
Eh, I'm just going to have to disagree there. It seems your against any female character having any type of sexualization. And, of that list, only Sniper Wolf is pure "objectification" because both EVA and Naomi in MGS4 are attempting to seduce someone (Naked Snake and Otacon). Also regarding your point about the Alaskan weather in MGS1, every villain in MGS1 ignores weather appropriate clothing. Vulcan Raven literally doesn't wear a shirt. Liquid wears a trench coat with no shirt underneath and the proceeds to eschew it at the end and go bare chested. And, Psycho Mantis is a BDSM fan. Only Ocelot seems to want to keep his clothes on but it seems no one told him they'd be taking over an Alaskan base and not the Alamo. Let's not even get into future titles where Vamp not only wears no shirt but also sports a dick knife which he proceeds to lick after it gets covered in Raiden's "white blood."
I'm just saying. MGS characters are supposed to be over the top. I don't see anything wrong with a female character being sexualized as long that's not the only thing about their character and it makes sense given the context. Sniper Wolf makes sense. Quiet, while at least having some characterization in MGSV, doesn't really make any lick of sense. The Boss exposing her chest in the end fight of MGS3 is a really powerful moment, Quiet undressing to dance in the rain is literally the stupidest fucking thing ever.
Not seeing a woman as an equal is misogyny. Thats contempt for women. All I said above was I don't think there is evidence Kojima as a person does not see women as equal to him. His sexualisation in fantasy based works does require an element of critical thought that does not instantly infer the creator of this work must not see women as equal. I think a real world accusation like that should always require some sort of evidence.
Quiet is a terrible character, and her not speaking did not really work in the game. I agree with that.
Sharing my thoughts is not mansplaining. Nor is trying to condense a long written attempt at articulating thoughts as "just prudishness". Please argue with me in better faith. The poster above doesn't agree with me but didn't just say I'm mansplaining. I'd appreciate something like that if you want to debate with me and not just get to throw some snark my way.
Well, I did try to explain myself in the rest of that post. I'm more curious as to your thoughts. For instance, how could Sniper Wolf be improved in MGS1? What is specifically wrong with her exposed cleavage given the tone of the game. I'm legit curious.
Strong || memorable characters != good characters
I think only a couple of your list are anywhere near being good, rich characters
Paz is not underage. She acts like a 16 year old school girl as a spy, though in reality she's in her mid 20's.
But, none of the characters in the game knew that initially. Thus, making it creepy when Strangelove is crushing on her.
TBH I avoided the game because of Quiet but when it hit PSN for free I figured I should give it a go. Haven't finished it yet so maybe there's plenty of silly stuff to come with her but I hadn't realized you could essentially skip having her as a buddy if you wanted and even if you do recruit her can keep her out the way. Trust Kojima though to make her so OP it's just damn tempting to nab her for tougher missions. Her level of sexualization though is through the roof when you do let her out to play. And that excuse for her "look": Kojima surely having a laugh.
The game though I have to say is mechanically awesome. Astonishingly open in how it let's you approach any situation. Plot's actually fairly coherent (ish) so far but maybe it goes full Kojima later on. TBH I've been ignoring the main plot to muck around with side missions in the open world.
The game though I have to say is mechanically awesome. Astonishingly open in how it let's you approach any situation. Plot's actually fairly coherent (ish) so far but maybe it goes full Kojima later on. TBH I've been ignoring the main plot to muck around with side missions in the open world.
Going "actually here's what misogyny is" kinda is, dude. But we've been over this before.
I am familiar with your long posts. Just because they are long doesn't mean they say much. Honestly it can be condensed to that, the fact that you used many many words doesn't change that. Then there's the number of strawmen (one of which I called out). And Faircure already did a nice takedown of the rest so I don't really need to.
Sniper Wolf was a decent character but the cleavage was gratuitous and unnecessary. It's just the juvenile "lol boobs" trope Kojima does in every single one of his games. In MGS1, it's mildly eye-rolling, but at least it's not too bad. In MGS3, it's getting more insulting, as if super spies and soldiers and terrorists would be so easily fooled by a woman just because she runs around with her underwear exposed. It's bad writing (because Kojima is a hack). In MGS4, the sheer objectification is taken to a whole other level with the B&B, and it's frankly offensive how the game lets the player ogle traumatized victims. And why sexualize Naomi all of a sudden? At least Sniper Wolf was written to be a femme fatale, but Naomi is just more random tits just because he can. He doesn't even respect his own characters, he just makes 'em all fap material. It's pathetic and ridiculous.
Edit:
And for those saying "you're just a prude", note that I have no problem with
the sex scene with Eva and Snake in MGS3
Yeah, I got that XOF uniform asap. And it's not only the depiction that was a bit uncomfortable, but also the way the camera will linger on her during some cutscenes. And don't even get me started on some of those helicopter poses.
Its fan service. Its sex sells which exists in other media like tv and movies.
But what we have pushes the boundary. Not because I'm outraged that a fictional character is dressed up like a stripper in a war setting, but because of how hammy and embarrassing it is. She sticks her ass in front of your face in the helicopter. When the creator's perviness shines through, you know its too much.
But what we have pushes the boundary. Not because I'm outraged that a fictional character is dressed up like a stripper in a war setting, but because of how hammy and embarrassing it is. She sticks her ass in front of your face in the helicopter. When the creator's perviness shines through, you know its too much.
Well, what can I productively say then if you've made your mind up about me? If so, fair enough, I can't change anything if your mind is made up. Do remember in this instance you quoted me, which means you began the potential debate between our thoughts and ideas. It wasn't a good start just saying mansplaining and I refuse/don't need to engage with your long posts as they don't say much. Faircure's post was at the same time as yours, so originally you didn't want to bother writing up anything other than you did. That doesn't really leave me anything to go on and makes it quite pointless you even engaged with me in the first place other than to put me down/have a remark. Great, I guess?
Kojima has always been a perv though.
I recall in MGS3 you could look at Eva in her bikinni while at the healing inventory.
I recall in MGS3 you could look at Eva in her bikinni while at the healing inventory.
Most of them are arguable if we take the issue of objectification. Meryl in MGS1 is absolutely wild in the way that she is used to prop up Solid Snake ("I took therapy to suppress my attraction of men but seeing you I can't", etc). I love Hideo Kojima but it's quite hard to overlook.