LTTP MGSV - quiet’s depiction is making me very uncomfortable

[H.I.V.E.]

You sure spent a whole lot of words to "address" something no one has said. That with the mansplaining about what sexism and misogyny really is. Sigh, some things never change, I guess.

Quiet's depiction, as well as the B&B corps and many others, are straight-up sexist at best, misogynistic at worst, this has been explained in intricate detail over and over. Stop saying it's "really about prudishness" or throwing around your dictionary definitions, please.

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It isn't "mansplaining" and the character is not objectively misogyny you also fail to understand what sexism is yet again. Not fair to bring up I know but you on the old forum also went into these long arguments calling everything sexist the one I remember the most being wonder woman. You spent in fact a huge amount of time attacking patty Jenkins and people including girls and women for enjoying the movie.

As you did in those threads you get quick to name calling, baiting and insulting others in every argument you enter. You always had to be right even if almost every time you were wrong. It is really infuriating. So let me ask you this.

Is this gonna be your plan on this forum as well? Because if it is you would save everyone a lot of time and answer that here so I and others may place you on ignore. Maybe this post is at the very least deserving a warning but I also think it is right to remind you this is suppose to be a reset. At the very least if you want someone to actually ever take a second to listen to your argument you should change the way you argue and how you treat others.

Start small perhaps by not assuming everyone you argue is a sexist pig and you are perfect and know better.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Everything about Quiet was the worst thing Kojima has done to the MGS series. Ignoring her design and "words and deeds", she is a shitty character who adds nothing of worth to the story. Sniper Wolf and Eva where still eye candy but at least they were great characters on their own. I even started to appreciate the Beauty and the Beast unit after Quiet.

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I actually thought the Beauty and the Beast unit were awesome. Much better boss fights than what MGS5 threw at us. Then again, I'm a big MGS4 fan so I'm probably a bit biased to that entry. 3 is still my favourite overall. MGS5 is just soo bad compared to previous entries. Gameplay is where it excels and there only. Apart from obvious benefits to being 1080/60 and pretty damn good looking all round.

Kojima even ballsed up all the codec call fun. I'm still salty about Hayter too regardless of any reasoning for that. Although that's not really a debate or wound to reopen lol. MGS is simply dead now, it lives on in 1-4. 5 was just an amazing gameplay tech demo for Death Stranding! Or so I tell myself. It's the only MGS game I have only completed once and I have no real desire to replay it.

 

[Gooch]

Just cover your eyes, OP. The sexy woman will go away.

 

[kliklik]

How heavily is the B&B corps (or whatever that female enemy group is called) featured in the game? Like how much 'screen time' do they have?

 

[Solid Shake]

Quiet was a mixed bag of a character, she had some cool moments and some very dumb ones. I don't get why she didn't just write stuff down on a notepad or something, that would have been helpful...

 

[Palculator]

How heavily is the B&B corps featured in the game? Like how much 'screen time' do they have?

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0.

 

[kliklik]

0.

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Whats the group of female enemies from the game that have been gif'd then? I'm getting confused.

 

[Palculator]

Whats the group of female enemies from the game that have been gif'd then? I'm getting confused.

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Those are the snipers from the SKULLS Parasite Unit, who mainly show up in one mission mid game for up to two encounters and one scene.

The Beauty & the Beast Unit is from Metal Gear Solid 4.

 

[Deleted member 888]

How heavily is the B&B corps featured in the game? Like how much 'screen time' do they have?

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MGS5 is the skulls, who are a decent boss/boss battles. MGS4 is B&B. It's 4 separate boss fights.

 

[kliklik]

Those are the snipers from the SKULLS Parasite Unit, who mainly show up in one mission mid game.

The Beauty & the Beast Unit is from Metal Gear Solid 4.

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Ok thanks. I was confused cuz everyone is talking about B&B for some reason. So they basically have one intro cutscene, and then you're just killing them and that's it?

 

[Deleted member 19213]

Her outfit is absurd and the reasoning behind it is even more absurd, but it doesn't make me uncomfortable. I think there's room for the nonsensical in games. As others have said, she actually has the most interesting arc in the game, not that it's saying much since the game's story was lackluster.

 

[Deleted member 19213]

Quiet was a mixed bag of a character, she had some cool moments and some very dumb ones. I don't get why she didn't just write stuff down on a notepad or something, that would have been helpful...

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lol, good point.

 

[Palculator]

Ok thanks. I was confused cuz everyone is talking about B&B for some reason. So they basically have one intro cutscene, and then you're just killing them and that's it?

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You can sneak past them, too. But then the mission gets harder as they show up at the end of it if they aren't defeated.

People are talking about the Beauty & the Beast Unit because it's another obvious case of Kojima putting models he likes into sexy costumes.

 

[CannonFodder52]

Just cover your eyes, OP. The sexy woman will go away.

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That's pretty condescending.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Quiet is a garbage character and the way the camera and other characters treat her is super super gross. She also has the the most detailed arc in the game basically, and I fucking hate that she got so much attention while characters like Ocelot barely existed.

 

[Black Knight]

I am not the biggest fan of MGS V, but one thing I can say for sure, it has one of the best gameplay experiences in this generation

Btw I had the same feeling as you when I first played MGS V, I really hate Quiet character design, even though it has to do with her backstory, but I see no need for all of that, anyway you can change her outfit later on but you need to put some hours in the game to be able to do so

Also you can use the D Dog for the time being, not to mention taking Quiet as your buddy is like changing the difficulty from hard to easy, she make the missions much easier, so you can have more fun with the challenges without her being around.

 

[kliklik]

You can sneak past them, too. But then the mission gets harder as they show up at the end of it if they aren't defeated.

People are talking about the Beauty & the Beast Unit because it's another obvious case of Kojima putting models he likes into sexy costumes.

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lol I just googled B&B and it said that Kojima had originally intended them all to be naked in cutscenes and asked the actresses to mocap it naked. I also remember seeing some designs and an interview where he said he wanted The Boss to fight with a tit hanging out. It seems in both cases he was reined in by other people.

So the SKULLS only have one intro cutscene as long as you kill them when you get the chance? Seems tolerable for me.

 

[Commodore64]

Quiet was a mixed bag of a character, she had some cool moments and some very dumb ones. I don't get why she didn't just write stuff down on a notepad or something, that would have been helpful...

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the dog can bark twice and tell you exact location of every nearby enemy but they couldn't work out a means of communicating with quiet.

 

[Solid Shake]

lol, good point.

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the dog can bark twice and tell you exact location of every nearby enemy but they couldn't work out a means of communicating with quiet.

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Yeah it's a pretty glaring plot hole. I'm willing to ignore some of MGS's plot holes but that one stuck out more than I liked.

 

[kliklik]

the dog can bark twice and tell you exact location of every nearby enemy but they couldn't work out a means of communicating with quiet.

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Ya but a dog is man's best friend!

What is a woman? A miserable little pile of tits.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I thought B&B corp were super fun as a throwback. I always saw the being able to take pictures of them as a non-canon extra, so it didn't really bother me even if it's kind of tasteless if you don't look at it in a vacuum. Of course, I kind of have a different mindset in general from a lot of people when it comes to separating main narrative aspects and throwaway elements.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I thought B&B corp were super fun as a throwback. I always saw the being able to take pictures of them as a non-canon extra, so it didn't really bother me even if it's kind of tasteless if you don't look at it in a vacuum. Of course, I kind of have a different mindset in general from a lot of people when it comes to separating main narrative aspects and throwaway elements.

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Slightly off topic now but I'd argue this is really the GOAT throwback lol



IIRC that is right after one of the B&B fights.

Now if only Konami would do a PS4 1080/60 remaster.... Hahaha. Enjoy your pachinko machine guys. See the MGS3 remake one? That's what you're getting.

Ah well, at least we finally got a trophy patch.

 

[Palculator]

Yeah it's a pretty glaring plot hole. I'm willing to ignore some of MGS's plot holes but that one stuck out more than I liked.

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Spoiler: This is still an LTTP, so MGSV spoilers

Ocelot mentions they tried getting her to write, but she didn't co-operate, because at the time she was basically a PoW and the main thing she would have to reveal is being a walking bio-weapon bred to exterminate them. She talks pretty openly with Code Talker once he reveals that knowledge.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Spoiler: This is still an LTTP, so MGSV spoilers

Ocelot mentions they tried getting her to write, but she didn't co-operate, because at the time she was basically a PoW and the main thing she would have to reveal is being a walking bio-weapon bred to exterminate them. She talks pretty openly with Code Talker once he reveals that knowledge.

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That was another issue with 5. They put soo much plot in the cassette tapes which just weren't as engaging or had the novelty factor of codec calls. They could be argued to have had a better gameplay plus in that they could be listened to whilst running around. However, I'd argue some skipped the tapes altogether or only listened to some. Or that some things were in the tapes that would have been better portrayed in a cutscene or some other way.

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

Just cover your eyes, OP. The sexy woman will go away.

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Wow, congratulations. Way to be a dick towards the OP who's just trying to share an opinion. Being condescending doesn't foster any meaningful discussion.

Might as well just said "OP your thread is worthless, stop posting."

 

[Morrigan]

It isn't "mansplaining" and the character is not objectively misogyny you also fail to understand what sexism is yet again.

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(Jesus... can't make this up folks.)

Is this gonna be your plan on this forum as well? Because if it is you would save everyone a lot of time and answer that here so I and others may place you on ignore. Maybe this post is at the very least deserving a warning but I also think it is right to remind you this is suppose to be a reset.

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You're the one who is bringing up "the old forum" unprompted and digging up an unrelated discussion about Patty Jenkins and you have the nerve to say "hey this is a reset"? Colour me unimpressed. For the record, I never attacked Patty Jenkins, this is a distortion at best, a fabrication at worst.

So here's my "plan": don't derail this thread with some unrelated dispute. It's not just petty, it's against the rules. If you have some sort of personal beef with me personally, you can always PM me to sort it out. Thanks.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

(Jesus... can't make this up folks.)


You're the one who is bringing up "the old forum" unprompted and digging up an unrelated discussion about Patty Jenkins and you have the nerve to say "hey this is a reset"? Colour me unimpressed. For the record, I never attacked Patty Jenkins, this is a distortion at bets, a fabrication at worst.

So here's my "plan": don't derail this thread with some unrelated dispute. It's not just petty, it's against the rules. If you have some sort of personal beef with me personally, you can always PM me to sort it out. Thanks.

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You did attack her and defended James Cameron at great length, you saying one thing then claiming you never said it was another thing that infuriates people. But fine I will not bring it up again. Ignoring each other is obviously for the best.

I will not comment anymore as I don't want to derail it further than I already have.

 

[Rob2K19]

Glad that you're enjoying the gameplay. It is really fun. With that said, Quiet's depiction made me very comfortable and felt like a breath of fresh air. I have to side with Kojima on that.

 

[GrinningColossus]

I read up to the beginning of page 4 of this thread.

It's as good a yardstick as any. The reality is that anime fans and gamers alike can end up being "okay" with some pretty dubious stuff. Sometimes you need someone fresh-minded to come along and tell you just how disconnected you've become.

This is how we get the "It's okay because she's a thousand year old dragon," nonsense. A sensible person pokes their head around the corner and says, "That's a 5 year old in a dental floss bikini. What the hell is wrong with you?" But someone who's become acclimatized might not really register just how... out of whack they've become.

The whole Paz thing where you had Strangelove repeatedly trying to sexually molest a character everyone thought was underage but was totes not what a tweeest is weird. Really, really weird. It ties into the Japanese "lesbian molestation is funny" trope that nowdays will tend to trigger R18 ratings in Australia because the classification board aren't particularly amused by "Stop touching me there!" quote unquote "comedy". They see it as open and shut rape. Period. But people who've watched a crapload of anime become numbed to that kind of thing.

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I wish all anime fans had this degree of self reflection. To do otherwise (ie not in moderation) is actually physically unhealthy. It's why I can't get behind the Japanese entertainment industry (games and cartoons mainly) these days.

That's hilarious. I guess it would depend on how your mother handles sex/nudity. I'm sure no teenagers watching porn would want their mothers walking in on them though, just as I'm sure the mother wouldn't want the kid walking on them if the parents are having some fun. Surprise announcement, parents, meaning adults, can still watch porn/have sex/enjoy discussing and taking part in nudity/sexuality/roleplay/etc. Hypocritical parents can do one, as they are a prime cause of anxiety/depression in their teenagers when they act like sex is a sin and their teenagers shouldn't be able to have any sort of sex life.

A lot of people are quite personal around sex/nudity/their desires, but part of that is due to a culture of shame (insert Kojima joke) where people are highly sensitive to sex/nudity and feel embarrassed about their bodies, other peoples bodies and what goes on mostly behind closed doors. America leads the way pretty badly with sex/nudity/sexual display being seen as something not to talk openly about, shy away from, and get offended/embarrassed.

I posted these articles on that other site, but I'll do it again as I really recommend people read them

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01205/the-triggers-sexual-desire-men-vs-women (lot of good secondary articles at the bottom of this one)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...iggers-sexual-desire-pt-2-what-s-erotic-women

I think the psychology today blog is having some maintenance issues right now though.

I can link to this https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=q...ZXXAhXNKFAKHXnIAu8Q_AUICigB&biw=1798&bih=1167 (might be NSFW if you have safesearch off ~ google image search for Quiet cosplay) and ask is that "internalized misogyny"? I'm sure someone somewhere would answer yes. Which, is patently ridiculous. If you want to say you're for equality for women, yet want to remove their personal choice to want to feel/dress sexy, you're not really the "ally" you claim you are. Possibly yet another hypocrite. You do not need to have a psychology degree to accept people like and want to display their sexuality/feel comfortable in their bodies. Yes, due to the way the dice is rolled for genetics, some people have the "perfect" genes for looking like models. That's life though, when it comes to appearance some get things you don't have. Whether it's perfect symmetry, big breasts/dicks, height, natural skinniness, piercing blue eyes, a big ass, etc. It's much more important to love and take care of yourself no matter what you've been given at birth and try to make the best of it. Yes, we can dye our hair and do some minor things with makeup/etc, and no one should shame anyone trying things to feel sexier. However, yes, things like cosmetic surgery and other costly and risky procedures should always have debate/conversation, as again, you do not need to be a psychologist to know confidence can be built up in people with self-esteem issues to help them make the best of what they have without drastic surgical procedures. I think most who want long-term love know it's best to love a best friend, than it is to be in a relationship you're unhappy in, but hey, some nice tits n ass, or abs, or a big dick.

This next sentence isn't aimed at anyone specifically here, but I think it's worth mentioning as apart from a culture of shame that we live in, it's also a frequently seen trend that some individuals who are the most against sex/nudity/sexuality are the biggest hypocrites on the planet. I'm not even speaking hyperbole there. We can go from religious people who have proved this hypothesis since time began, with priests preaching about homosexuality and then taking it up the ass frequently as... they were gay themselves (nothing wrong with being gay/anal sex but that hypocrisy from the preachers is terrible). Or the same priests doing something massively illegal, abusing children sexually. Hypocrisy is also rife in everyday people though, not just the religious, who act as if seeing a bit of skin ruins their day/life, then at night watch porn, fantasize, have sex with their partners and talk dirty about tits, ass, pussy and dick. Or own sex toys and self-pleasure. Yes there are some people out there who claim to be truly abstinent and want to be that way, but they are not the ordinary for a species, humanity, that is hard-wired for sex/sexual pleasure, and the biology/psychology backs that up.

Speaking of the hypocrites, this is a satirised but true statement, and note how Patton refers to the priests I spoke about above

Again, that's not aimed specifically at anyone here. However, I need not remind everyone we've mostly came from a site that had a member with a name beginning with A that stood up for women's rights on the forum, the women's march, against Trump and made the right sounding noises for equality. He is now in jail for paedophilia and the record states videos and pictures of VERY young girls. We all know someone with a name beginning with E who is now accused of sexual harassment. The #metoo campaign has outed quite a few "male feminist allies" from blogs, large websites and other places who said all the right things publicly, but had really sinister or shitty lives behind the scenes.

Ultimately, whether it's "harmless" hypocrisy such as saying your eyes can't handle an inch of skin being on display, yet you watch BDSM porn at night, or illegal/harmful hypocrisy such as paedophilia, abuse, rape and so on, hypocrisy in general just drives people crazy. It's such a dishonest way for someone to live their life, pretending to be something they are not, and misleading/deceiving others. There is a massive difference between feeling there can be too much visual stimulation aimed at men in gaming, as yes, there is. It's a very male orientated hobby, and while there is great diversity in gaming experiences these days, when it comes to sexualisation it will still mostly be for straight men. Part of that is due to the number of straight male creators in the industry, but part of it is also because of the psychology today links above. I mean a simple question, why does anyone think that in the realms of cosplay, it's mostly females dressing up in sexy attire instead of men dressing up as idealized male characters?

Sure, Diet Coke made a thing out of appealing to women visually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Sre-wpGHE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVexzzVfDA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwYCvTpYMCA

and it worked! But even women know, there is a genuine biological and psychological link to men routinely preferring visual stimulation over things such as books, fantasizing, romance movies/shows, etc. That isn't to say women do not like visual stimulation, of course, they do. Just go on Tinder and you'll see women (and men, duh) operating largely off of visuals. The money-making industry largely tips towards men and visuals, women and novels, which is partly why we live in a world when it comes to advertisements/content it's often visuals for males.

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Do you work for the adult film industry? (nah just fuckin' with you dawg) This logic is used to justify a ton of risqué material, and actually quite damaging with how aggressively people argue for it. It's really not as repressed as you make it seem these days, it's pretty out in the open.

Kojima makes games. Filmmakers make films. It's first and farmost the gameplay of the series that has made it such a beloved series for decades now. And the control you have over Snake in V is the grand pinnacle of this evolution.

And of course hardened soldiers also like to look at women. It would actually be strange if he didn't look. And as your bond grows with Quiet she starts flirting more with you. Just like in real life people start flirting more when they get to like each other more.

Taking these Kojima/Japanese stuff out of games makes them more like all the other games out there.


Just like taking all the sex and prostituion etc out of Game of Thrones. And making it a more generic, ok to watch with your mother-in-law series.

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Frankly, it's ridiculously misguided to compare the sexuality expressed in Game of Thrones (which is historically accurate based on medieval time periods GRRM based the setting on, and even then heavily placed in the spotlight and commercialized, because HBO) to sexuality expressed in anime (which is done with no deeper relevance except among, no surprise here, other anime). It's not "Japanese stuff", it's "anime bullshit."

 

[HypedBeast]

I think Quiets outfit is garbage,not because she's sexualized,it's just not well designed.Its bland color scheme,completely unfashionable and non stylish,very unwitting for the setting,and overall doesn't seem like something Quiet would wear.

I overall like her character but the designer,the writer,and the animator were clearly going in three different directions cause she's a Frankenstein Monster of bad choices.

 

[Jaffo]

I love Quiet. I'm glad kojima did what he wanted without worrying about backlash.

 

[NHarmonic.]

The character could have been a lot more, tbh. There was a lot of potential there, but it just ends up being a fantasy.

 

[Atraveller]

You guys ever get some kind of dissonance from the fact that one of the most celebrated gaming icons of all time defends Quiet's depiction with an explanation that pathetic?

I mean, don't get me wrong, Kojima has contributed a lot of great gaming moments and Death Stranding will probably be it's own kind of awesome. I have a lot of respect for the man. I just feel a little dissonance when I try to reconcile my respect for that man with my incredulity at that statement.

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I like his taste and passion in movies, but I have never respected him as a game director.

 

[XaviConcept]

Quiet is the best MGS example of Kojima needing an editor.

I enjoyed the game and wasnt bothered too much by her but Im a very privileged straight white dude so duh, no shit. One telling aspect is that at comic and anime shows you NEVER see Quiet cosplay but every other mayor MSG character can be seen quite often.

 

[Mikey1123]

It's a M rated game. In the future you should check the back of the box to see what your game contain.

 

[CannonFodder52]

You folks read my post on the first page about Kojima's earlier game, Snatcher?

Kojima forces you to sniff the panties of a 14 year old girl(a model in the game's universe) and then walk in on her in the shower without her permission, in a way intended to be fan-service. Her age is changed to 18 and the nudity is removed in the EU/NA release.

After playing that, Quiet just seems like part of a Kojima trend.

*Snatcher is a really good game besides that content by the way*

It's a M rated game. In the future you should check the back of the box to see what your game contain.

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It's a discussion board. There's no reason the OP can't discuss what they didn't enjoy or found uncomfortable.
Usually mainstream M rated games, especially PS+ ones aren't this gratuitous.

 

[symphonic cacophony]

I think there are two factors to keep in mind :
1) Kojima is a Japanese game director, and despite MGS being an international release, he is making a game primarily for the Japanese audience. For people that are familiar with Japanese media or anime, it's a lot more archaic when it comes to gender equality. There's a lot of female depiction that you can get away with in Japan, but not the west.
2) Kojima is a dirty old man who likes scantly clad women. Look through his old games and there's a good number of scenes where the women are there to titillate. Just off the top, Snatcher has under age girl with a shower scene, the scene in MGS with Meryl and that exaggerated hip sway. Any scene where Eva shows up in MGS 3. Maybe if he was honest about his fetish the way Yoko Taro is, people would have given him less shit?

If MGS 5 was published by a big western publisher, very likely Quiet would have had a major costume change. But given the circumstance of Kojima's departure from Konami, my best guess is that Kojima is quite the stubborn person and ran his studio like his own fiefdom and very resistant to any changes.

Full disclosure : I only finished the Middle East portion of the MGS 5 so I don't know what other questionable part of Quiet's plot went to, but MGS 5 is a game that carries a lot of the director personal influence in it. If the publisher is allowed to sanitize it for the broader audience, it would probably end up being just another AAA game and we wouldn't end up with 6 page long discussion about one character.

 

[GrinningColossus]

1) Kojima is a Japanese game director, and despite MGS being an international release, he is making a game primarily for the Japanese audience.

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The point made after the first comma in this sentence is patently false and anyone who knows basic economics of the video game industry could tell you that. And I don't think anyone who knows MGS's themes and trademarks would doubt his desire to inject his perspectives as a Japanese man into the game.

 

[Dr. Monkey]

It isn't "mansplaining" and the character is not objectively misogyny you also fail to understand what sexism is yet again.

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I'm gonna skip all the uh... let's call it "criticism" in this post but I'm quite curious to see you define an "objective" measure of misogyny or sexism. I'm not one for much tossing around of dictionary definitions, but it seems objectively clear that Quiet is treated differently than any of the male characters in the game because of her body - both by the other characters in the story and by the lens of the "camera" and the creator's eye. That's she's also treated differently because she's deadly is a separate, yet entwined issue.

Spoilers, because others have, and what the hell; it seems polite.

Spoiler

• She is the victim of an attempted rape, an overused narrative tactic to break women or to force character development on them.
• She twists and turns coquettishly to display her body. Her peculiar condition does not make this necessary.
• There are far more practical ways to dress in that environment with her condition than in ripped fishnets and an impossible top that defies all physics as we know them.
• She is literally silenced... and before anyone says that's empowering or agential or any nonsense I've heard on that, she say in the game that she did not choose it. Silencing women is a hallmark of misogyny.
• In the "interrogation" scene, the camera lingers on her tits while she's being tortured, for chrissakes.

This isn't even all of it. Quiet is treated differently throughout the game - as a capable yet contemptible object. She is not developed as a person, not even as a thin trope of a person, as with some of the other characters.

And, listen. Despite this and despite a billion other issues, I loved MGSV. I played MGSV for months, and still go back and play it from time to time. Quiet's a good companion, too. But I hated looking at her for what she represents. I've seen this garbage my entire life. I've had to wade through it in so many games. It's sexist. It's a barrier to entry for women. It's an ongoing problem. Just because it doesn't affect every woman or some people choose to think it's some kind of coy commentary doesn't change the fact that it hits a number of alarming markers for misogynistic game design.

It's a M rated game. In the future you should check the back of the box to see what your game contain.

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And what does a snarky reply like this add? Real talk, it's not like every M-rated game has Quiet-clones running around. This doesn't even make sense as a troll. Should be more "check reportage on the game next time or something."

Come on, man.

 

[H.I.V.E.]

I'm gonna skip all the uh... let's call it "criticism" in this post but I'm quite curious to see you define an "objective" measure of misogyny or sexism. I'm not one for much tossing around of dictionary definitions, but it seems objectively clear that Quiet is treated differently than any of the male characters in the game because of her body - both by the other characters in the story and by the lens of the "camera" and the creator's eye. That's she's also treated differently because she's deadly is a separate, yet entwined issue.

Spoilers, because others have, and what the hell; it seems polite.

Spoiler

• She is the victim of an attempted rape, an overused narrative tactic to break women or to force character development on them.
• She twists and turns coquettishly to display her body. Her peculiar condition does not make this necessary.
• There are far more practical ways to dress in that environment with her condition than in ripped fishnets and an impossible top that defies all physics as we know them.
• She is literally silenced... and before anyone says that's empowering or agential or any nonsense I've heard on that, she say in the game that she did not choose it. Silencing women is a hallmark of misogyny.
• In the "interrogation" scene, the camera lingers on her tits while she's being tortured, for chrissakes.

This isn't even all of it. Quiet is treated differently throughout the game - as a capable yet contemptible object. She is not developed as a person, not even as a thin trope of a person, as with some of the other characters.

And, listen. Despite this and despite a billion other issues, I loved MGSV. I played MGSV for months, and still go back and play it from time to time. Quiet's a good companion, too. But I hated looking at her for what she represents. I've seen this garbage my entire life. I've had to wade through it in so many games. It's sexist. It's a barrier to entry for women. It's an ongoing problem. Just because it doesn't affect every woman or some people choose to think it's some kind of coy commentary doesn't change the fact that it hits a number of alarming markers for misogynistic game design.


And what does a snarky reply like this add? Real talk, it's not like every M-rated game has Quiet-clones running around. This doesn't even make sense as a troll. Should be more "check reportage on the game next time or something."

Come on, man.

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Not sure if you misunderstand or I didn't word it good enough or I am misunderstanding you now but I object to defining her as misogyny as if it is an objective truth and anyone who disagrees would objectively be wrong. I also object to the notion that sexy=sexist. Being sexy intentionally is not inherently bad or wrong or worthy of criticism but I won't mind it we all have our opinions and I welcome them. Loving sexy cartoons or computer models or real women is not hatred for women now that doesn't mean it can't be. But I have no reason to think they hate women and I also did not find the character offensive as many others didn't and that doesn't give someone the right to then brand me or others especially the creators as people who hate women.

I'm sorry you felt she represented that but you have to understand that others may have a completely different take away and not see, what you see or they do and don't have an issue with it as they don't take it as coming from a place of hate or feel it fits with the game despite disliking it. Or they just don't get affected by fiction or let that influence their perceptions and attitudes something that has been studied just as violence in games has. I feel comfortably with those results that I shouldn't worry about the effects games has on people's actions in real life just as I do with movies, tv and books.

Sometimes it doesn't do anyone any good to just constantly attack something you don't agree with either. I don't like south park but I don't view or think that people who do are terrible people or think it should be banned, censored it is enough I don't have to watch the show. So if let's say a person hates anime and consider it all sexist then perhaps at some point you should just ignore it and if you want to argue it try and do so with respect unless your intention isn't to argue in good faith that is and you just want people to feel bad in which case the name calling will work great just no one will ever listen so bare that in mind.

In fact once you spend majority of your time attacking women and female characters for being sexy and attractive while taking shots at how they dress and carry themselves you run the risk to start to become what you claim to be against. Objectify women their bodies and "mansplain" how they have to be and you are doing what misogynists do.

 

[CannonFodder52]

I'm gonna skip all the uh... let's call it "criticism" in this post but I'm quite curious to see you define an "objective" measure of misogyny or sexism. I'm not one for much tossing around of dictionary definitions, but it seems objectively clear that Quiet is treated differently than any of the male characters in the game because of her body - both by the other characters in the story and by the lens of the "camera" and the creator's eye. That's she's also treated differently because she's deadly is a separate, yet entwined issue.

Spoilers, because others have, and what the hell; it seems polite.

Spoiler

• She is the victim of an attempted rape, an overused narrative tactic to break women or to force character development on them.
• She twists and turns coquettishly to display her body. Her peculiar condition does not make this necessary.
• There are far more practical ways to dress in that environment with her condition than in ripped fishnets and an impossible top that defies all physics as we know them.
• She is literally silenced... and before anyone says that's empowering or agential or any nonsense I've heard on that, she say in the game that she did not choose it. Silencing women is a hallmark of misogyny.
• In the "interrogation" scene, the camera lingers on her tits while she's being tortured, for chrissakes.

This isn't even all of it. Quiet is treated differently throughout the game - as a capable yet contemptible object. She is not developed as a person, not even as a thin trope of a person, as with some of the other characters.

And, listen. Despite this and despite a billion other issues, I loved MGSV. I played MGSV for months, and still go back and play it from time to time. Quiet's a good companion, too. But I hated looking at her for what she represents. I've seen this garbage my entire life. I've had to wade through it in so many games. It's sexist. It's a barrier to entry for women. It's an ongoing problem. Just because it doesn't affect every woman or some people choose to think it's some kind of coy commentary doesn't change the fact that it hits a number of alarming markers for misogynistic game design.


And what does a snarky reply like this add? Real talk, it's not like every M-rated game has Quiet-clones running around. This doesn't even make sense as a troll. Should be more "check reportage on the game next time or something."

Come on, man.

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Good post

 

[symphonic cacophony]

The point made after the first comma in this sentence is patently false and anyone who knows basic economics of the video game industry could tell you that. And I don't think anyone who knows MGS's themes and trademarks would doubt his desire to inject his perspectives as a Japanese man into the game.

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No idea what you are trying to say that is different than what I'm already saying. Yes he injects his perspective as Japanese man into a game, including his archaic and sexist depiction of women, which he got away with because Japanese media, as far as I'm aware of, is not calling him out on this, unlike this forum.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The character would have been a hundred times less grating if the Gray XOF outfit was her default. She still would have been a poor addition to the game, but at least it might not have been so distracting.

It's a M rated game. In the future you should check the back of the box to see what your game contain.

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That's beyond reductive though. The back of the box just tells you a list of content descriptors. It doesn't actually tell you why the game got those descriptors. I suppose you could read the official ESRB listing on their website, but most people aren't going to do that.

 

[Mailbox]

I think Quiets outfit is garbage,not because she's sexualized,it's just not well designed.Its bland color scheme,completely unfashionable and non stylish,very unwitting for the setting,and overall doesn't seem like something Quiet would wear.

I overall like her character but the designer,the writer,and the animator were clearly going in three different directions cause she's a Frankenstein Monster of bad choices.

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Honestly this is where I am wrt Quiet.
She definitely has issues wrt her representation in a sexual context, but man her outfit is just not good design...

 

[Bán]

Quiet's attire is just weird, but she's pretty much the only character in the game with a semblance of an arc.

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This.

Whatever about what she looked like, she was the only one I became emotionally invested in at all. Okay, her and Kaz.

 

[Atraveller]

It's a M rated game. In the future you should check the back of the box to see what your game contain.

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Rated M for Misogyny?

 

[Joeyro]

I've never really cared about fan service in games before it but MGSV made me feel truly embarrassed for the first time since I started gaming, especially the shower scene and the blatant teasing in the chopper.

Jesus christ Kojima why?

 

[JumpCancel]

That was another issue with 5. They put soo much plot in the cassette tapes which just weren't as engaging or had the novelty factor of codec calls. They could be argued to have had a better gameplay plus in that they could be listened to whilst running around. However, I'd argue some skipped the tapes altogether or only listened to some. Or that some things were in the tapes that would have been better portrayed in a cutscene or some other way.

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Now THIS is were Peace Walker takes the cake. The cassette tapes in PW really fleshed out the characters and were full of optional information. Level briefing files mixed up who delivered the brief on occasion as well as character specific tapes that discussed their backstory and interests.

Honestly they were one of my favourite features of the game. Phantom Pain however uses them as major information/exposition dumps that are required to understand the main plot. Whether or not this was by design to mesh and facilitate the open world and later abused due to time constraints, or simply rushed I couldn't say. One thing I feel is certain is they are overused beyond excess.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I read up to the beginning of page 4 of this thread.


I wish all anime fans had this degree of self reflection. To do otherwise (ie not in moderation) is actually physically unhealthy. It's why I can't get behind the Japanese entertainment industry (games and cartoons mainly) these days.


Do you work for the adult film industry? (nah just fuckin' with you dawg) This logic is used to justify a ton of risqué material, and actually quite damaging with how aggressively people argue for it. It's really not as repressed as you make it seem these days, it's pretty out in the open.


Frankly, it's ridiculously misguided to compare the sexuality expressed in Game of Thrones (which is historically accurate based on medieval time periods GRRM based the setting on, and even then heavily placed in the spotlight and commercialized, because HBO) to sexuality expressed in anime (which is done with no deeper relevance except among, no surprise here, other anime). It's not "Japanese stuff", it's "anime bullshit."

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As in the content existing? Of course not. Rating boards (ESRB/PEGI), let alone broadcast TV (cable especially), allow and show far more nudity/sex than ever before. Public reaction can still be as bad as the 1950s with people getting outraged if someone's elbow is shown.

The morality argument has always been around when it comes to sex/nudity/the human body. I personally think disgust sensitivity plays a role here too, in that some people have been conditioned to feel a response as severe as disgust to human nudity/body parts/sexual interactions, so respond internally with a feeling of disgust/moral condemnation if their peers engage in fun/enjoyment/positivity around sex/nudity/visual stimulation.

An interesting observation from this research is that people's moral judgments are also related to disgust. When people witness (or hear about) a moral transgression, they often get a disgust reaction. In addition, feelings of disgust increase people's sense of moral outrage. A fascinating element of this work is that the sense of moral outrage may increase even when the feeling of disgust comes from another source.

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Putting all of this together, then, you can use your sense of disgust to help you determine whether an action is morally right. You are prone to use any feeling of disgust you are experiencing to make this judgment. However, the higher the level of your ability to focus attention, the more likely you are to restrict your use of disgust to those feelings that are actually related to the event you are judging.

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https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/201209/disgust-morality-and-attention

The way some people react incredibly hostile to ANY sort of nudity/sexual displays/sexual objectification does genuinely make me believe there is some sort of disgust conditioning going on. Often that has been handed down by parental teaching/reinforcing, but a lack of detailed sex education in schools contributes far more seriously than some seem to think as well.

As I mentioned earlier in the topic visual stimulation is far more of a sensory overload than say, written, or asking someone to imagine something strictly in their head. Visual stimulation is incredibly graphic, and often leaves no room for imagination as it just lays everything out as clear as your eyes can see. Some people find that too much, too graphic, one could summarise. The biology and psychology backs visual stimulation being what males largely prefer, though, even if there are outliers, as there always is. Evolution isn't an exact, human beings are diverse and varied within a spectrum.

Other times it is just as simple as the male feminist ally gatekeeper stereotype, where a man has ulterior motives to try and suggest he is a paragon of virtuous intentions. Occassionally this is because he's actually a complete fucking creep or harasser, as seen by male feminists who go viral online for sexual harassment/rape/indecent exposure or even child paedophilia. They end up using their outspoken claims of moral superiority as a mask to hide their sinister motives. Hence why I posted that Patton Oswalt tweet earlier, and drew similarlites to other men in positions of "moral superiority" such as priests or preachers who condemn homosexuality and then are gay themselves, or worse, abuse children.

The sneaky fucker strategy is also in play here, or as it's more commonly refered to, sneaker strategy (to drop the use of fucker)

When low-status males have no chance of accessing females via traditional routes such as fighting or signalling their prowess, they may attempt more deceptive means of getting a mate.

As an example, some male fish take advantage of the external fertilisation of eggs by hiding on the periphery of the courting male's territory, including in some cases disguising themselves as females. When the eggs are released, they rush in and attempt to fertilise them. This strategy can be dangerous, but for males that simply aren't in the game, it may be their only option.

The technical term for this behaviour is kleptogamy, but it is better known as the "sneaky fucker" strategy. I've often heard and read in the blogosphere that John Maynard Smith coined the phrase, but I haven't been able to turn up anything authoritative.

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https://jasoncollins.org/2014/01/08/the-origin-of-the-phrase-sneaky-fcker/

Self-perceived low-status males believing that if they say the right things they can sneak into the realms of bedding women they believe are out of their league. While personality does indeed often beat physical looks/money and power for many women when it comes to partner selection, like it or not even as a guy there can be societal pressures around physical appearance and some historic views of the man should be the breadwinner. It's a somewhat evolutionary method, the above, and as human beings aren't above the animal kingdom it's part of our DNA. However, with the level of intelligence we posses, most people would accept being a nice guy should actually mean striving to be a genuinely nice guy. Not just pretending to try and get laid. I briefly mentioned it earlier but unhappy relationships based solely around looks/fame/money are bound to be very empty inside and most likely lead to severe depression. Most people will find actual love and happiness with someone they believe is their best friend.

Or if it's not anything as sinister as the above, it's just some people being huge hypocrites wanting to infer moral superiority over others who are more open/honest than them, before sitting on their PCs or in front of their TVs at night and watching some seriously kinky porn. Many people live private lives that they wouldn't share in 100% detail publicly, but many of said people don't behave like hypocrites saying one thing publicly and doing another privately. They just don't engage publicly and keep to themselves.

Lastly, I am sure I need not remind everyone how some places in the world, by force/threat/law, make women cover up so not a single part of their skin can be shown. That is a society really taking all of the above to the extreme. It's no surprise rapes, sexual assault, paedophilia, child marriage and so on is often at its highest in said places. As is a complete and utter lack of understanding of biology and psychology. Most of these places are theocracies, and religion has a seriously disgraceful history and current presence when it comes to women's rights, the human body, sex, nudity and accepting biology/psychology. Severe repression and oppression runs rampant and manifests itself in violent/deadly or criminal ways in places with high enforcement of religion. Tying into absolute moral claims, and claims of disgust/perversion around human nudity/expression/sex.

On a slightly related note, the UK Conservative government has been waging a battle against porn for a while https://www.newstatesman.com/scienc...as-now-entered-draconian-era-porn-prohibitionNo surprises a right-leaning conservative Government is the one hard at work on privacy/rights erosion around arguments of morality with sex/sexual content. All while Conservative MPs have a history being caught being harassers, going with prostitutes, condemning homosexuality but being gay themselves, paedophilia and so on.

Quiet is the best MGS example of Kojima needing an editor.

I enjoyed the game and wasnt bothered too much by her but Im a very privileged straight white dude so duh, no shit. One telling aspect is that at comic and anime shows you NEVER see Quiet cosplay but every other mayor MSG character can be seen quite often.

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Well, seeing as you capitalised NEVER, I have to say not quite true

Plenty more examples on Google image search under Quiet cosplay. Yes, the above is added to be... "funny".

Eva might be marginally more popular in public seeing as you get to wear a bit more

I mean, no shit, to want to attempt to go as Quiet you require a bit of confidence to do so. It's basically the same as wearing a bikini on the beach. The beach is somewhere where there is comfort in numbers as basically everyone wears a bikini, not just you and a handful of others in amongst hundreds if not thousands.

 

[odhin]

I think MGS5 is the worst possible choise for being the first Metal Gear one plays (other than PW maybe), even though I really enjoyed it.
I didnt really liked Quiet as a character, just like most other characters on MGS5, but that had nothing to do with her outfit tbh.