• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,685
The main character seems like such a sympathethic dude, yet he is shooting security guards in the face for very little reason. Yes I know theres a stealth option, but I suck at stealth so missions generally turn violent. Even quiet takedowns are lethal in this game. Also the hacking gives you backstory about the people, so they feel more just like individuals. Sure I exposed the new dawn church financial scam, but killed a bunch of people in the process. In GTA the protagonists are criminals, so it makes more sense, but here they are fighting for a noble purpose. It is never addressed in the cutscenes either.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,460
Sweden
it was really bad for me in red dead redemption

like that mission where you're going on a boat on the river and just killing hundreds of mexicans

by the end of the game you've probably wiped out around 10% of the population in the game area

made it much harder for me to empathize with the main character
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
Isn't there a community mod that makes playing the game non-lethal a bit more varied and fun, or am I imagining things?
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,156
Washington, D.C.
Watch Dogs 2 only makes sense if you go the non-lethal route.

Honestly, it really feels like they designed the game around the non-lethal route and then just threw in guns.
 

roguesquirrel

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
5,487
i just ignored the guns entirely unless i was doing an online mode. It turned it into a game where i felt awful the few times i accidentally ran someone over which doesnt really happen for me in games with open world cities

Wish they had the guts to just take out the guns and give you an expanded nonlethal suite
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,156
Washington, D.C.
i just ignored the guns entirely unless i was doing an online mode. It turned it into a game where i felt awful the few times i accidentally ran someone over

Wish they had the guts to just take out the guns and give you an expanded nonlethal suite

Would have been a much better game if it forced you to be non-lethal. I love the game and the characters, but I really feel the inclusion of the guns was just something they felt they had to do.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,637
Yeah, I dunno what to tell you. You're right that a super violent route makes the game's narrative really weird, but the game does make it super viable to not go that way, which is more than most games with this issue do (such as Tomb Raider or Uncharted).
 

Deleted member 10611

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
738
I tried playing through that entire damn game without killing anyone because it felt so strange otherwise. I was fine with pulling out an assault rifle as Aiden Pearce because he's a homicidal sociopath and it made sense on a narrative level. Killing people in Watch Dogs 2 just felt wrong and antithetical to what the story was trying to convey.
 

hank_tree

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,596
I think WD2 does a decent job of not forcing you down the lethal route. Plenty of non-lethal options.
 

RadzPrower

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 19, 2018
6,045
I've been having the same feelings but reversed as I'm just now getting to MGSV. This version of Snake specifically has very little qualms with killing his enemies, to the point of fairly regularly pulling out a fully auto rifle and mowing folks down. The thing is, I tend to play a more non-lethal manner if possible. It kind of makes sense at least since soldiers can find a sleeping comrade and it won't necessarily raise alarms where a dead one will, but it still feels like I should be breaking these goons necks compared to simply putting them in a choke hold.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
I'm going to try to play the game as non lethally as possible but from everything I know it still bothers me to no end that you can print guns and kill people.

"We are cool and nice hackers fighting injustice" - you can kill tons of innocent people. Makes no sense.
 

bobbychalkers

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,603
Watch Dogs 2 has a severe problem with it. Marcus and co aren't cold blooded killers and it always feels weird whenever I find myself using guns in the game.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,827
The dissonance practically gave me whiplash.

"They labelled me a threat! They made me do community service. So now I'm going to carry out a huge succession of terrorist attacks. For the lulz."

"Swatting is the worst" *hacks police so that they can issue an APB on anyone*

"This movie inaccurately portrays hacking. Lets destroy their property using magic mobile phones!"

And it's hard to argue it's meant to be a stealth game with the huge number of lethal guns & powers, as well as the fact that once you're spotted it's go lethal or reload a save.
 

Krooner

Member
Oct 27, 2017
669
Ubisoft have a bit of a thing for encouraging (or trying to encourage) a player to play their games their way. See the star rankings they brought in to Assassin's Creed. It's a strange thing to do, to design scenarios that are approachable in multiple different ways, then withhold rewards if you don't do it the way they think you should. I hope they stop doing it.
 

StarPhlox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
Wisconsin
If you're going to have the character do those things, then you're the one creating the ludonarrative dissonance. No, it isn't a pleasant game when you play it violently because it's totally at odds with how Marcus is as a character and it's also much less satisfying than a stealth approach with all the gadgets.
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
Agreed all the way. And you know what the real corker is? The stealth is far worse in 2, so there are actually more occasions where you have to resort to violent means to progress through a mission than in 1. And killing someone as Marcus is so out of character.

Watch Dogs 1 was even worse lol

No it wasn't. Aiden was a bland character, but at least he felt consistent. If he shot someone in the face, you'd believe he was capable of doing it, which is more than you can say about Marcus. Dude is just a mess of a protagonist.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,265
Lewdo-what? You have to explain your intellectual terms to the rest of us simpletons.

It just means a conflict between the narrative of the game and the actual gameplay. So for example you are the good guy in most of these kind of games but then you go on to slaughter hundreds of guards who are just doing their job, if you did that kind of thing IRL you'd be a psychopath. Another simple example would be the story driven games where you need to do X before the building/town/world is destroyed and then you go fuck off on a side quest for hours.

I never found it a problem in uncharted, you were going after treasure and these guys came after you and they were always ready to shoot first plus you were out of civilization mostly, but yeah in Watch Dogs 2 its a bit weird because your PC is goofy as fuck, your friends are even goofier, you do these weird "booya i'm a hacker!" kind of moments in cut scenes where you specifically eschew violence, but then you play and mow down hundreds of guards or civvies as you want and your guy just keeps cracking jokes all the while you are in a pretty big city and you can just rinse and repeat your mega violent outbursts with no consequence.
 
Last edited:

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,540
I know people say they like the option for guns in WD2 and it's nice that they're there for people who want it, but I really think the game would be stronger if it was built around the idea that you can't use them. It made sense in WD1 because of the type of character Aiden was but not in the second with Marcus. Even with the tacked on "I have a gun license" fact.
 

Mesoian

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,503
It gets REALLY bad after (spoilers)

Your friend is killed by the spanish mob and you spend your time exacting your revenge on them. Even non-lethally, at least in my game, it just mean that while I didn't kill them, they were murdered by the police.

And everything goes back to sunshine and rainbows afterwards. It's REALLY jarring.
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
The dissonance practically gave me whiplash.

"They labelled me a threat! They made me do community service. So now I'm going to carry out a huge succession of terrorist attacks. For the lulz."

"Swatting is the worst" *hacks police so that they can issue an APB on anyone*

"This movie inaccurately portrays hacking. Lets destroy their property using magic mobile phones!"

And it's hard to argue it's meant to be a stealth game with the huge number of lethal guns & powers, as well as the fact that once you're spotted it's go lethal or reload a save.

You nailed it man.
 

MMarston

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,605
it was really bad for me in red dead redemption

like that mission where you're going on a boat on the river and just killing hundreds of mexicans

by the end of the game you've probably wiped out around 10% of the population in the game area

made it much harder for me to empathize with the main character

I think that only strengthened the theme of that game actually.

John is so dead-set on "redeeming" himself and being with his family that he will do so by any means. He still has some sense of justice, but in the end, if he's got to point and shoot something to get from Point A to B, he will do so without hesitation. In that sense, he really can't run away from being what he is despite his end goal meaning well. And even though he died via the hands of dirty scoundrels who manipulated him, it was a result that was bound to happen because of what he's done too.

Of course, this is also dependent on the player's actions/reputation outside the main story as well.

That, and it was the Wild West. Preservation of life wasn't such a hot thing in general.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
I played it nonlethaly (I considered the melee takedown nonlethal in my headcanon, not sure it is is intended by developers). But the game really makes it hard from time to time, and completely fucking illogical in fact. For example, if you just find yourself in an area where you should not, like...police parking lot, the cops immediately open fire. Complete nonsense. Meanwhile in Mafia 3 for example, even the mafiosos first tell you to fuck off before they start getting violent.

Still, at least it was somewhat possible to play nonlethal here.

I had biggest issue with Uncahrted 4, there the gameplay and narrative are in complete opposite to each other, and there is no possibility of nonlethal. Drake just snaps them necks left and right. Which sucks, I have no idea why they could not give him knock out animation and tranq gun.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Agreed all the way. And you know what the real corker is? The stealth is far worse in 2, so there are actually more occasions where you have to resort to violent means to progress through a mission than in 1. And killing someone as Marcus is so out of character.



No it wasn't. Aiden was a bland character, but at least he felt consistent. If he shot someone in the face, you'd believe he was capable of doing it, which is more than you can say about Marcus. Dude is just a mess of a protagonist.
I guess, I just meant Aiden was an absolute shithole but he was portrayed as being a good person who's overall doing the right thing. I guess it's not the same thing though you're right.
 

Zomba13

#1 Waluigi Fan! Current Status: Crying
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,936
Part of the reason I played it through super stealthy and as non-lethal as I could.
 

FriedConsole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,187
The world of WD2 is so stupid cartoon I don't know why the stupidity of the plot bothers you. I think the plot of WD1 is dumber because the world was more grounded. They still should have made the world of WD2 more cartoon stupid.
 

mas8705

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,497
Don't know if we should be thankful that it was better than WatchDogs 1 or disappointed that it wasn't improved much in WatchDogs 2. At least in the case of WD2, the protag is actually tolerable and it isn't like you were questioning his motivations during the story (whereas in the first WD, you question why all of this s*** happened to begin with and how it was allowed to happen as such).

Side Note: If we wanted to list down all the problems with WatchDogs, a guy did a hilarious script for it. If you have a couple of minutes to spare, it is a fantastic read.

Back on Topic: While Marcus is a good character, the problem is that he doesn't come off like a guy who would go on a murder spree. It does feel like a split personality between the cutscene Marcus and the one we control when we decide to have him go on a killing spree even with Stealth options are available. Heck knows that if that were the case, we could have picked a certain "X_X" that could have fit that bill much easier (not to mention that for the time we use him, he is basically decked out with weapons anyway.

The joys of the open world games I suppose. Definitely though, it is something worth exploring.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
When it comes to ludonarrative dissonance, I usually view it from the perspective of premise.

Sure, it's a bit weird for Drake to be killing hundreds of human beings given the tone of the game, but the narrative premise is that there are bad guys who will kill you if you don't kill them, and the most logical way to tackle this problem is to kill them first.

If the premise is that you need to accomplish something, and the easiest way to do it is to be discreet and avoid violence when possible, and the gameplay is about causing a ruckus and killing lots of people... there better be some characterization that makes at least some sense out of the conflict there.


See, the thing about ludonarrative dissonance in UC games is that the dissonance isn't inherently tied to the gameplay. There are plenty of stories out there that downplay the degree of desctruction and carnage that the protagonist causes. It can be seen even in the original Star Wars trilogy, where we're not even supposed to view storm troopers as human beings. This is less problematic because it mirrors the viewpoint of the main characters. They don't view stormtroopers as humans.

That's fundamentally different from a game that uses narrative to communicate something and completely contradicts it with gameplay. It's not like UC is passing off themes of the value of life onto the audience.


IMO the worst offenders are usually games that present a narrative with a clear sense of urgency and then make the game about wandering around casually and interacting with the world in a no pressure capacity. It drove me crazy when I was playing Xenoblade 1 and the gameplay was encouraging me to fuck around and help random NPCs with the most inane shit (which was enjoyable to be clear) and then all of a sudden I'd trigger a cutscene and the narrative would be like "OH NO! This poor defenseless orphan is about to get mauled by Doctor evil robot X!" And I'd just be like "....okay, well I'm going to finish collecting this guy's dirty laundry from the swimming hole and then I'll get right on that"

A lot of it has to do with framing, and I think it's safe to say that most writers who are hired to work on video games don't understand how to make it work, or just don't care because they write the story so early on in the process without any knowledge of how the game is going to play. Yasumo Matsuno was very good about this in FFT. The game's story always has a sense of importance to what is going on, but everything is framed as though it's going to happen in the nonspecific "not too distant future" so that it usually doesn't feel inappropriate that you're not making a beeline for your next destination.

I think the worst offender in a game I played recently was probably FFXV. It failed to fit the gameplay into the narrative in a truly impressive manner. It's bad enough that the "road trip" angle didn't even get communicated by the meandering, back and forth errand nature of the gameplay, but even when you look past that, no part of the narrative made any sense whatsoever out of the aimless exploration that the gameplay encouraged. They didn't even design most of the quests with any sort of connection to the main story. You literally put your "my dad was killed in an invasion and I must defeat the empire" debacle on hold to dig for frogs in the swamp.

FFXIII was probably just as bad. The entire game is hitting you over the head with this "oh no we're being chased by the FBI and we've got ticking time bombs strapped to our arms and we don't know how to get rid of them" tone, and then you arrive on Gran Pulse and the game is like "wanna dick around exploring the wilderness?"

It's incredibly frustrating to me because it's not by any means difficult to match the narrative to the gameplay. The only reason it doesn't happen is if developers either don't care, or are just too incompetent to pull it off.
 

Joeyro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,757
The dissonance practically gave me whiplash.

"They labelled me a threat! They made me do community service. So now I'm going to carry out a huge succession of terrorist attacks. For the lulz."

"Swatting is the worst" *hacks police so that they can issue an APB on anyone*

"This movie inaccurately portrays hacking. Lets destroy their property using magic mobile phones!"

And it's hard to argue it's meant to be a stealth game with the huge number of lethal guns & powers, as well as the fact that once you're spotted it's go lethal or reload a save.
Jesus it just got to me that you are literally swatting innocent people and get them arrested for not reason or just straight up murdering them by calling gang hits.
I had a non lethal play through or atleast I thought i did, jeez.
 
Last edited: