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Lyrics Site Accuses Google of Lifting Its Content

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,014
From the WSJ. Byline: Genius made this video to show how the company used patterns in the formatting of apostrophes to "watermark" the lyrics it found on Google: https://www.wsj.com/articles/lyrics...ses-google-of-lifting-its-content-11560677400

A non-paywalled link: https://www.engadget.com/2019/06/16/genius-accuses-google-of-copying-lyrics/

It purposefully alternated between straight and curved apostrophes as a form of watermarking (they typically spell out "red handed" in Morse code), and there were reportedly over 100 instances where Google's lyrics included those exact apostrophes.
...
There haven't been formal actions yet, but Genius has alleged that Google was both violating antitrust law and its terms of service. It said it alerted Google to the reported misuse as soon as 2017. Genius might not have much success if it pursues a case directly, since it doesn't own the lyrics -- it's just allowed to display them.
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Crumb

Crumb

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,043
isn't the point of genius to explain the lyrics?

how do you take credit for copying down words someone else came up with
 
Killthee

Killthee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,169
Bear said:
Uhh, they're just song lyrics that are written down?
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The site has paid to display the lyrics and google is stealing traffic the site could be generating by scraping the lyrics from them and displaying them themselves.

Genius Media Group, Inc. (GMG) is fully licensed to display lyrics across all of its properties. In 2013, GMG entered into licenses with every major music publisher: Sony/ATV Music Publishing, EMI Music Publishing, Universal Music Publishing Group, and Warner/Chappell Music. In addition, GMG developed a form license with the National Music Publishers' Association (NMPA) which today covers more than 96% of the independent publisher market.
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Google should pay the record companies if they want lyrics or come to an agreement with genius instead of just lifting them from them without permission.
 
SnakeXs

SnakeXs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,111
Wait are people just ok with Google freely grabbing information from wherever they want, for use in their paid services?
 
collige

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Crumb said:
isn't the point of genius to explain the lyrics?

how do you take credit for copying down words someone else came up with
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There's a lot of music that doesn't come with official lyrics, so Genius using a Wiki-like format means that they can cover far more material than Google previously could.
 
Akira86

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
didn't some rando type the shit into Genisu, the same way some rando copied it and pasted it to Google?
 
Hollywood Duo

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,837
Yeah Google does this a lot. It scrapes the site and displays the relevant content on the search results page.
 
CloudWolf

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,597
Crumb said:
isn't the point of genius to explain the lyrics?

how do you take credit for copying down words someone else came up with
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Well, music rights are actually wildly confusing. Genius isn't just typing the lyrics in on their website, they are paying money to the distributors to have the right to display the lyrics. It wouldn't surprise me if those contracts specifically stipulate that the way Genius can posts their lyrics and if that's the case then Genius might be in the right here. That said, music and lyrics licensing is so confusing that this is probably going nowhere.
 
CloudWolf

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,597
Dest said:
Oh and I'm sure they are but I'm pretty sure if I make a song and a site writes them down so people can read them that that site doesn't have any rights over the lyrics that I myself made.
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Genius pays music corporations to display the lyrics, they don't just write them down. If you were to make a song and Genius wanted to display your lyrics, they'd pay you.

What they are saying here is that Google takes their paid for and displayed lyrics, removes every mention to Genius and in that way reduces traffic (and ad income) from their site.
 
chezzymann

chezzymann

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,042
So I would be pirating by typing out the lyrics to a song here since that website has the only rights to display them on the internet?
 
Dest

Dest

Has seen more 10s than EA ever will
Coward
Jun 4, 2018
14,039
Work
CloudWolf said:
Genius pays music corporations to display the lyrics, they don't just write them down.
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That in itself makes sense enough, but what seperates this from say, someone writing down the lines in a TV show, a news segment, a movie, they themselves writing down lyrics? It's the same information, no?
 

Deleted member 45414

Banned
Jun 26, 2018
3,829
Remember when genius was called rapgenius? But then they paid bloggers to link to their site and got banned off google?

Time for round 2. Fight.
 
Akira86

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,585
someone should sue Genius for all the shitty interpretations they have and bad lyrics.
 
ElectricBlanketFire

ElectricBlanketFire

What year is this?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,833
Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me
I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed
She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
In the shape of an "L" on her forehead

Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb

So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go
You'll never shine if you don't glow

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

It's a cool place and they say it gets colder
You're bundled up now wait 'til you get older
But the meteor men beg to differ
Judging by the hole in the satellite picture

The ice we skate is getting pretty thin
The water's getting warm so you might as well swim
My world's on fire. How about yours?
That's the way I like it and I'll never get bored

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

Go for the moon
Go for the moon
Go for the moon
Go for the moon

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars

Somebody once asked could I spare some change for gas
I need to get myself away from this place
I said yep, what a concept
I could use a little fuel myself
And we could all use a little change

Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb

So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go
You'll never shine if you don't glow

Hey, now, you're an all star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold
 
Classy Tomato

Classy Tomato

Member
Jun 2, 2019
2,514
Huh, I often wonder where does Google obtain the lyrics from. I thought they worked together with some sites or something.
 
Bear

Bear

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,864
Robochimp said:
The writing down takes work, work costs money, that work generates revenue.

Should the revenue go to the entity that did the work?
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Yeah, but the copying of song lyrics isn't really a business. If Google did just scrape the internet for lyrics as opposed to doing this, would that change anything?

The knowledge of lyrics (ie., not making money off them) are kind of like public domain, no?

Robochimp said:
When google presents you something, they're getting data, they're presenting you with ads, they turn that into revenue.
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It's search in the way that anything else you search for is making them money. It's not unique in any way to lyrics. Consumers aren't paying directly for this in any way.
 
Robochimp

Robochimp

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,677
Bear said:
Yeah, but the copying of song lyrics isn't really a business. If Google did just scrape the internet for lyrics as opposed to doing this, would that change anything?

The knowledge of lyrics (ie., not making money off them) are kind of like public domain, no?
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No, they paid a fee for the right to reproduce the lyrics and present them.
 
BigLongJohnson

BigLongJohnson

Member
Oct 25, 2017
403
Shitty, considering that Genius originally stole OHHLA's entire archive when they first launched their site.

Call it a peculiar pastime, but in the past I transcribed a vast number of rap lyrics, interpreting the words that I heard into written form, to be shared with others on what I found to be a worthwhile online project, The Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive. OHHLA.com wasn't the only lyric website at the time, but it was certainly the most apparently bonafide one and in many ways an exemplary database consisting of user-generated content before Wikipedia and others even existed. I was well aware that legally speaking someone held the rights to the song lyrics I typed up and the website did have to fight some battles with plaintiffs claiming 'ownership' of these lyrics (typically major labels, never the artists themselves), but the stance that OHHLA.com took was always that the archive was a service to the entire rap industry and hip-hop culture.

...

Unlike the many people whose actual rights have been violated on the world wide web (musicians particularly), I don't have any rights to the lyrics I transcribed. But I find it shameful that the people responsible for running RapGenius at the time robbed me of months worth of labor (not to speak of the webmaster, who can claim years worth of labor). Yes I typed these lyrics for all to read, but I did so for the Original Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive, not for RapGenius. This being the internet, there's not much I can do except to note that, for the record, Genius.com began with an act of biting. And for the generation that I represent, that's as wack as it gets.
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inner-G

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
ElectricBlanketFire said:
Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me
I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed
She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
In the shape of an "L" on her forehead

Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb

So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go
You'll never shine if you don't glow

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

It's a cool place and they say it gets colder
You're bundled up now wait 'til you get older
But the meteor men beg to differ
Judging by the hole in the satellite picture

The ice we skate is getting pretty thin
The water's getting warm so you might as well swim
My world's on fire. How about yours?
That's the way I like it and I'll never get bored

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

Go for the moon
Go for the moon
Go for the moon
Go for the moon

Hey, now, you're an all-star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars

Somebody once asked could I spare some change for gas
I need to get myself away from this place
I said yep, what a concept
I could use a little fuel myself
And we could all use a little change

Well, the years start coming and they don't stop coming
Fed to the rules and I hit the ground running
Didn't make sense not to live for fun
Your brain gets smart but your head gets dumb

So much to do, so much to see
So what's wrong with taking the back streets?
You'll never know if you don't go
You'll never shine if you don't glow

Hey, now, you're an all star, get your game on, go play
Hey, now, you're a rock star, get the show on, get paid
And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold

And all that glitters is gold
Only shooting stars break the mold
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The Albatross

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,985
Rap Genius / Genius did this same thing to get their start years ago, I thought they were sued over it too.

I originally thought Google was pulling it's content for lyrics like it does any info box when you search for anything, but I guess it doesn't. Google apparently licenses its lyrics from a 3rd party that gets licenses to post lyrics, and that 3rd party says they don't get their content from other sites without permission, but there's 100 instances where -- apparently -- they have.

Google denied anything sinister in a statement to the Wall Street Journal. The company takes copyright "very seriously" and held its sourcing partners "accountable" for honoring the terms to its agreements -- it doesn't create the panels themselves. A key source for song info, LyricFind, told the WSJ that its staff "do not source" lyrics from Genius. Neither Google nor LyricFind has directly addressed the apparent match with some of Genius' lyrics.
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I would have assumed the Google crawler would go to a lyrics site, pull the lyrics from it, and then display them when you search for it, but apparently they don't... They use a 3rd party company to license the lyrics.

Apparently this is the company Google uses to license lyrics through:


AwJnr0C.png


Clever use by Genius to mark their lyrics with that double quote / single quote system. Sounds like LyricFind licensed the lyrics from music publishers, but some employees probably found it faster to just copy some songs from other sites and didn't put in any work sanitizing them. If that's the case, Genius could have a suit against Google, Amazon, Billboard, EMI, and whoeever the major other partners/clients are of LyricFind... Or they sue LyricFind.

Google's statement:

"The lyrics displayed in the information boxes and in Knowledge Panels on Google Search are licensed from a variety of sources and are not scraped from sites on the web. We take data quality and creator rights very seriously, and hold our licensing partners accountable to the terms of our agreement. We're investigating this issue with our data partners and if we find that partners are not upholding good practices we will end our agreements."
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I'm surprised they're not scraped.
 
Last edited:
ElNerdo

ElNerdo

Member
Oct 22, 2018
2,220
I understand having to pay royalties to stream the music and such, but to display lyrics? That sounds crazy to me.
 
Cipherr

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,425
Killthee said:
The site has paid to display the lyrics and google is stealing traffic the site could be generating by scraping the lyrics from them and displaying them themselves.



Google should pay the record companies if they want lyrics or come to an agreement with genius instead of just lifting them from them without permission.
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I don't neccessarily disagree, but Ill bet this isn't the outcome these sites want. Google already has relationships with labels through Youtube and Play Music. Sure they can pay for the lyrics and display them right there in search results..... and as a result take 90% of the traffic from these sites that would then immediately cry foul on unfair competition on the search engine. Be careful what you wish for here.
 
Mesoian

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,431
The Albatross said:
Clever use by Genius to mark their lyrics with that double quote / single quote system. Sounds like LyricFind licensed the lyrics from music publishers, but some employees probably found it faster to just copy some songs from other sites and didn't put in any work sanitizing them. If that's the case, Genius could have a suit against Google, Amazon, Billboard, EMI, and whoeever the major other partners/clients are of LyricFind... Or they sue LyricFind.
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Yup. This is the most likely outcome, good ole' fashion human error.

Genius might have a nice little windfall from this if they can prove it with something a little more robust than an internal marking system.
 
ty_hot

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
Well, Google has a patent that goes through sports websites and drains all the info from live results so that thsy can display it *for free* on their search... If I am not mistaken the patent goes beyond and is supposed to gather even information about news from several sites and create its own "Google created" text, all through AI. But this is not something that is live yet.
 
CatAssTrophy

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,611
Texas
I'm curious why nobody is asking why, if Google pulls lyrics from a specific source, there isn't the possibility that THAT source stole/copied them from Genius and not Google directly?

If that's the case, Google's partner fucked up and Google's method of pulling and displaying lyrics was just fed ill-obtained data.

Also: yikes about Genius stealing all of that other sites lyrics.
 
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