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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Ofc they do, sad as it is. That doesn't make any European country's school system the equivalent of the Uighur re-education camps. Not even remotely.
OK, well you know I didn't claim an equivalence there so what's the issue? I just said it definitely happens and is likely a systemic issue just as it is in the US and in lots of places in Western Europe, in response to someone saying it doesn't happen. After someone made a rape joke in this thread about teacher-student abuse too, which I will admit kind of set me off in the first place. I can't stand that shit.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
No where did I claim that was the case, don't put that on me. I was responding to someone making the statement that it doesn't happen in French schools.

You literally have people in this thread making rape jokes about teacher abuse so it's not like this is coming out of nowhere either.
Understand that you replied in the context of the comparison to Chinese concentration camps.
So the implication of your post is that there is a comparison to be made, the fact that we're something like 10 posts of this exchange with various posters mean that I'm not the only one that took that as part of that comparison.

On the subject of fearing for a child's safety due to sexual abuse at school, it is important to note that this can also happen at home and a child is statistically not significantly safer at home considering a rather high number of cases involve family first and foremost.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,758
First of all, it's not just men. The sexual abuse of girls and boys by women is a significant problem in the education field, at least here in the US. You are ignoring a wide swath of victims by engaging in that rhetoric.

I hope that it's not systemic in the French school system but I know it is here in the US and other western countries so forgive me for being doubtful.

Obviously, I was just making a point. Women do abuse, but it's not that common in many parts of the world and when it happens there's often a male abuser involved. But that's besides the point, there are shitty people everywhere - I think we can agree on that.

But who exactly am I ignoring? I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was simply saying that isolated episodes of abuse are still abuse, even if it's not symptomatic of a flawed system. Probably worded myself clumsily in the previous post.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Understand that you replied in the context of the comparison to Chinese concentration camps.
So the implication of your post is that there is a comparison to be made, the fact that we're something like 10 posts of this exchange with various posters mean that I'm not the only one that took that as part of that comparison.

On the subject of fearing for a child's safety due to sexual abuse at school, it is important to note that this can also happen at home and a child is statistically not significantly safer at home considering a rather high number of cases involve family first and foremost.
Yes I'm well aware of that, I'm not suggesting it's safer to keep children out of school either. I just don't think people should be suggesting sexual abuse doesn't happen in French schools, especially not in a thread where people are making crass jokes about that very thing in reference to Macron.
 

jem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,757
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to compare making kids go to school to fucking internment camps.
 

BowieZ

Member
Nov 7, 2017
3,972
The framing of this is fucked up. Ik you are joking about Macron and his wife, but he didn't seduce anyone, she pursued him in a predatory fashion. Statements like this place agency on the victim that they don't have and normalize abuse, especially when we are talking about male victims and female perpetrators. Please don't make jokes like this.
Can you provide a link for this? I seem to remember reading that Macron did obsessively pursue her. It was not intended to be a generalisation about gender and pedophilia.
 

Deleted member 279

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,270
This sounds bad but I don't know enough about the situation to comment. Seems like a response to a recent tragedy right?

Judging how the USA used islamic extremism as an excuse to push surveillance, I can assume this is probably the true goal of the French gov't.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Can you provide a link for this? I seem to remember reading that Macron did obsessively pursue her. It was not intended to be a generalisation about gender and pedophilia.
His parents pulled him out of school because she pursued him so hard and they were uncomfortable with it, and even then she would pursue him through phone calls.

It also doesn't matter if he was interested, he was a 15 year old boy and she was an adult woman. His reaction to her predatory behavior is irrelevant. If he was a 15 year old girl and she had been a male teacher you wouldn't be floating the idea of "seduction", which is incredibly vile for such a situation.
 
Please just use a little bit of your brains
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
5,759
Damn, the mods and this thread really tried their best to spin this into "see, ALL kids are getting ID numbers for the greater good of getting an education, it's not an issue! :)"

Please
Think
Of
Why
This
Reform
Is
Being
Pushed
In
The
First
Place
In
The
Same
Breath
As
Trying
To
Stop
The
Radicalization
Of
"Islamists"
For
The
Love
Of
God
And
Stop
Covering
Up
The
Clearly
Stated
Motives
By
These
Monsters
Involved
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
5,759
The ID number isn't a separate change from the ultimatum or the discussion around it. It's not something auxiliary I threw in because I and the BBC hate France. THINK.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,850
It's clear this isn't just an authoritarian overreach.
It's plainly racist and Islamophobic.
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
722
Damn, the mods and this thread really tried their best to spin this into "see, ALL kids are getting ID numbers for the greater good of getting an education, it's not an issue! :)"

Please
Think
Of
Why
This
Reform
Is
Being
Pushed
In
The
First
Place
In
The
Same
Breath
As
Trying
To
Stop
The
Radicalization
Of
"Islamists"
For
The
Love
Of
God
And
Stop
Covering
Up
The
Clearly
Stated
Motives
By
These
Monsters
Involved

Ive read the whole thread, the consensus that this is targetting unjustly the Muslims hasnt been denied by anyone as far as i can see. People now are just surprised at individual posts that claim that iding kids and forcing kids to go to school is authoritarian and racist when thats what it is expected in their own democratic governments. I doubt EVERY person in the thread is aware that there are already laws and practices that are suposed to enforce this and that this systems seems redundant when they already have other programs they can expand, which makes it more clear that this is targeted at Muslims in particular.

If you want the narrative of the thread to go back to what you believe is going on then maybe make that clear in your own OP because the simple article with bulletpoints dont sound weird or special to 90% of people living in the developed world (or even in development countries like mine) instead of acting condescending to people that dont have all the information that is required to understand the implications in ur OP
 
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Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,347
We homeschool our son in France because the state thinks it's good to force him in to school for 28 hours a week when he's not even three. Without allowing us to ease him in to it, so had to drop him at the gates. With all teachers wearing masks.
If your son is not even three, the state is not forcing you to send him to school (Education is not mandatory for kids like him: he is too young). Because of that, your city is under no obligation to provide your son a place in one of their pre-schools and some cities don't have enough money to pay for each kid under 3. If you decide to send your 2-year-old kid to school while not respecting school hours, you could be wasting valuable resources, best used to serve a kid and their parents who will respect school hours.

At the same time, pre-school teachers are not low-tier teachers, but real teachers. They know how to take care of children, even as young as your son. Some of them fought and are still fighting hard to open pre-school to him and other 2-year-old kids and they did/are doing it because they are certain it's a good thing for them. If you disagree with them, you are free to keep your two-year-old son home and if you have another child in France, even if this new law is voted, you'll still be free to keep this child home till they are three years old.
Without allowing us to ease him in to it, so had to drop him at the gates. With all teachers wearing masks.
I think you may have missed this little virus outbreak killing and infecting hundreds and thousands of people each day (it's understandable, some French media are doing a terrific job hiding it 😩): schools are locked down and teachers are wearing masks to protect children like your son, and, by proxy, to protect you (being strict about school hours can also be a consequence of the outbreak because schools are trying to prevent all parents from being there at the same time). And you can also add a fact making a bad situation worse: a teacher was recently killed and lots of schools are even more locked down because of that.
 

Heroicpiglet

Avenger
Dec 22, 2017
2,064
in my country all kids are encouraged to go to school, poor families will be help with financing their kids for school at least in the junior years. You can not expect to live in a society with other people when you only know your family when growing up. Kids also have their ID number since birth and another ID number when they are 14.

the worrying signs in France is that parents are punished when not taking their kids to schools.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Prohibits any political activism for Muslims? What the fuck. That has rings of fascism right there and seems ripe for obfuscation. Eg say you want to protest for Palestinian liberation from Israeli colonisation or settlement theft, or to support BDS, how long before that is seen as political activism or the waters are muddied on things that are similar?

The whole ID and 6 months in prison thing also has tinges of authoritarianism, and could very easily be misappropriated to target minorities and poorer parents, who may simply struggle with enforcing attendance on their children due to social issues and a greater number of inflexible commitments (eg working unusual hours or multiple jobs just to survive).
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Yeah well I didn't make that comparison, I was responding to someone who said that sexual abuse doesn't happen in French schools which I'm quite sure is a false statement.

This is a bare faced lie. What they actually said wasn't happening was systematic indoctrination, torture, waterboarding and sexual abuse. You know, the things actually happening in uighur camps, that are somehow being compared to French public schools because this thread has gone fucking insane.

Thank you for the pedantic clarification that sexual abuse does happen in French schools (because, as you say, it happens in every country's schools; indeed, happens everywhere), but if you're not making that comparison, nor supporting that comparison... what is your point, exactly? What's the conclusion you are so desperate to reach that you're willing to straight out lie about what somebody else in this thread has said?
 

Huncho

Member
Jun 10, 2020
1,344
Let's not forget the law that was voted saying you can't film with your cellphone or anything policemen in France.
 

Lishi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,284
Btw, for the ID number, one category that don't have it will be children that are living in France without the proper document. So no type of france registration number will apply to them yet i guess. And it's still important for them to go to School.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
This is a bare faced lie. What they actually said wasn't happening was systematic indoctrination, torture, waterboarding and sexual abuse. You know, the things actually happening in uighur camps, that are somehow being compared to French public schools because this thread has gone fucking insane.

Thank you for the pedantic clarification that sexual abuse does happen in French schools (because, as you say, it happens in every country's schools; indeed, happens everywhere), but if you're not making that comparison, nor supporting that comparison... what is your point, exactly? What's the conclusion you are so desperate to reach that you're willing to straight out lie about what somebody else in this thread has said?
Again, I didn't make that comparison. I got heated because people were making jokes about sexual abuse of students by teachers and then saw that comment as well and reacted negatively because I read it as downplaying a problem that definitely exists in French schools (as with any school system in any country, which I also said). It literally happened to Macron.

It's an intensely personal issue to me so sometimes comments like that get me heated, but I probably should've just left it alone. You've made it clear in the past that you think I'm just arguing in bad faith all the time or whatever so why waste your time quoting me if you think I'm full of shit? I don't think you actually want an explanation of my thought process.

I don't think the French government is trying to institute concentration camps. Policies like the one outlined in the OP are designed to be oppressive against Muslims, and France has a significant problem with treatment of its Muslim/Arab minority. They aren't alone in that either in the western world, but policies like this one advance that oppression and should be called out for what they are, imo.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Obviously, I was just making a point. Women do abuse, but it's not that common in many parts of the world and when it happens there's often a male abuser involved. But that's besides the point, there are shitty people everywhere - I think we can agree on that.

But who exactly am I ignoring? I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was simply saying that isolated episodes of abuse are still abuse, even if it's not symptomatic of a flawed system. Probably worded myself clumsily in the previous post.
You're ignoring anyone who was victimized by a woman when you use language that excludes them from the conversation around childhood sexual abuse. There are tons of victims here on this forum who had female perpetrators, and about half of men and boys who report abuse or sexual assault in the US report a female perpetrator based on victim surveys, as well as a significant portion of victims who are women and girls (around 15%, though numbers fluctuate depending upon the survey). These are just US numbers, but that represents millions of people.

I came off aggressive in that post so I apologize for that, I am very bothered when people talk about abuse in only the traditional paradigm when abuse is an intersectional issue, it can happen to anyone and be perpetrated by anyone, and cases outside of the traditional paradigm are far from rare. It's only recently with the MeToo movement that male victims and victims with female perpetrators, who have often been ignored in discussions around this issue, have gotten more of a voice. Your suggestion that abuse perpetrated by women is rare, and when it does occur is nearly always influenced by another male abuser, is very flawed.

Here is a thread I made about this subject a year ago, it includes some research about this very subject.
 

ronpontelle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,645
If your son is not even three, the state is not forcing you to send him to school (Education is not mandatory for kids like him: he is too young). Because of that, your city is under no obligation to provide your son a place in one of their pre-schools and some cities don't have enough money to pay for each kid under 3. If you decide to send your 2-year-old kid to school while not respecting school hours, you could be wasting valuable resources, best used to serve a kid and their parents who will respect school hours.

At the same time, pre-school teachers are not low-tier teachers, but real teachers. They know how to take care of children, even as young as your son. Some of them fought and are still fighting hard to open pre-school to him and other 2-year-old kids and they did/are doing it because they are certain it's a good thing for them. If you disagree with them, you are free to keep your two-year-old son home and if you have another child in France, even if this new law is voted, you'll still be free to keep this child home till they are three years old.

I think you may have missed this little virus outbreak killing and infecting hundreds and thousands of people each day (it's understandable, some French media are doing a terrific job hiding it 😩): schools are locked down and teachers are wearing masks to protect children like your son, and, by proxy, to protect you (being strict about school hours can also be a consequence of the outbreak because schools are trying to prevent all parents from being there at the same time). And you can also add a fact making a bad situation worse: a teacher was recently killed and lots of schools are even more locked down because of that.
The law changed in 2019. Schooling is mandatory from the September of the year in which they turn three. It's too early in my, and most counties', opinions.

And yes, I'm very aware of the pandemic and very respectful of all the rules.

If this is the only way children of as young as 32 months of age can go to school, maybe don't make it mandatory? It is very simple. This was before the tragic murder of the teacher.

I'm not some crazy libertarian, but this is an over reach by the government, and in my, and seemingly the majority of peoples, opinions, not for the benefit of the child. The state definitely does not always know best.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,758
You're ignoring anyone who was victimized by a woman when you use language that excludes them from the conversation around childhood sexual abuse. There are tons of victims here on this forum who had female perpetrators, and about half of men and boys who report abuse or sexual assault in the US report a female perpetrator based on victim surveys, as well as a significant portion of victims who are women and girls (around 15%, though numbers fluctuate depending upon the survey). These are just US numbers, but that represents millions of people.

I came off aggressive in that post so I apologize for that, I am very bothered when people talk about abuse in only the traditional paradigm when abuse is an intersectional issue, it can happen to anyone and be perpetrated by anyone, and cases outside of the traditional paradigm are far from rare. It's only recently with the MeToo movement that male victims and victims with female perpetrators, who have often been ignored in discussions around this issue, have gotten more of a voice. Your suggestion that abuse perpetrated by women is rare, and when it does occur is nearly always influenced by another male abuser, is very flawed.

Here is a thread I made about this subject a year ago, it includes some research about this very subject.

You know what, you are absolutely right. It was stupid of me to double down on the "men are the true villains" angle. I had no intention of downplaying the legitimacy of abuse at the hands of women.
 

Firefox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
194
Prohibits any political activism for Muslims? What the fuck. That has rings of fascism right there and seems ripe for obfuscation. Eg say you want to protest for Palestinian liberation from Israeli colonisation or settlement theft, or to support BDS, how long before that is seen as political activism or the waters are muddied on things that are similar?

The whole ID and 6 months in prison thing also has tinges of authoritarianism, and could very easily be misappropriated to target minorities and poorer parents, who may simply struggle with enforcing attendance on their children due to social issues and a greater number of inflexible commitments (eg working unusual hours or multiple jobs just to survive).

Yup. These measures may "apply to all" but minorities will bear the brunt of enforcement and be the main targets.

This will only lead to more feeling ostracized.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
You know what, you are absolutely right. It was stupid of me to double down on the "men are the true villains" angle. I had no intention of downplaying the legitimacy of abuse at the hands of women.
It's OK. Abuse at the hands of men is more common. I was abused by men. However, to suggest that abuse by women is rare is just not true, and people who have been abused by women should not be left out of the conversation around abuse.
 

Stabi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,603
France / san francisco
Prohibits any political activism for Muslims?
It's a little different.
Macron is asking imams to recognize islam is a religion and not political, as well as asking them to stop any political interference from foreign country.
Which for most members of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Council_of_the_Muslim_Faith might not be a problem, though the approach will obviously and for good reasons get criticized.

There are many different "islamic organization", not sure that's the right word in english, but what macron asked is particularly targeting organization such as https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millî_Görüş or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

But yeah the approach and wording are bad.

Basically it's "we want to target the extremists, and fuck it if we demonize all muslims at the same time, but know it's not against you."
Which probably won't work and only increase the tensions and the persecution.
 

Cuv8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
19
French person here.
School is mandatory for every child until they're 16 and considered able to chose if they want to continue or not.

As usual with everything, the problem is really complex and one could say it has roots in colonization and how people from North Africa and other countries (colonies at the time...) came to France to rebuild it after World War 2. A lot of them were happy to come to France at the time but there were so many that housing them became a problem. Remember that the country went through a lot of destruction during WW2. Cultural differences and other factors made it so that people coming from colonies were living together. It was easier for them and there also was some racism. After a few years, slums were a common things were these people were living (around Paris mostly and I think that's also true for other cities).

Slums were destroyed and people were put in new low-rent buildings by the state. At the time it was seen as a real progress and everyone was happy. Famous architects built those and at the time it was seen as a utopy (1st result in Google gives this : Utopia Deconstructed: Le Corbusier and the Banlieue | The Isis (isismagazine.org.uk) )

Note that there were a lot problems and I'm absolutely not saying things were perfect. I'm just trying to explain something very complicated in just a few words. Fast forward a few dozen years and you get one of the main social issues we have in France right now. The utopian suburbs were left alone and a lot of people living there feel France doesn't care about them at all. 2nd and 3rd generation youth have an identity crisis. They're french but sometimes not seen as fully french (racism). They turn to there roots because their parent's history means a lot to them.

Religion was always important for a lot of people in France. Most of the population is catholic. Most of the people that came from north Africa are muslims. It has never been a problem until the last few years.

During the 90's some radical muslims people started building enclosed communities in France. One example is the enclosed community that was built by Olivier Corel in a very small village in the south of France called Artigat. For a lot years, people living near that community accepted them. They were seen as weirdos maybe but that's all. South of France has had some hippie communities in the 70s doing the same so it was seen as something similar.

Things accelerated a lot after 9/11. People from enclosed communities went to the suburbs. They put moderate imams aside and took over their mosque. They created private schools on the model of islamic schools in Afghanistan and Egypt (children were mostly studying religion there and not much more). Private schools in France that teach religious things are completely ok. Only public schools can't have any ties to religion. We have a lot of catholic schools and some jewish establishments too.

The problem with those schools is that they basically were not schools. They were just endoctrination places. Again, this was a marginal thing. Only a few of those places existed. So, in order to protect children, a lot of them were closed after it was evaluated that they actually were not schools...

Schools and mosque were part of a bigger thing. After a few years, some people in the suburbs were seen as radicalized. People were following chariah. In their eyes, living their religion was impossible in France. It resonated a lot with the youth that felt abandonned by France. If you know french you can read this book : Le jihadisme français: Quartiers, Syrie, prisons (Esprits du monde, 11839) (French Edition): Micheron, Hugo, Kepel, Gilles: 9782072875991: Amazon.com: Books

Then we had 2012, 2013 etc etc...All these attacks are attacks against french values. That's why the word "separatism" recently appeared in the mouth of Macron and his team. The crisis we have in France right now is that some people reject France and being french because they feel they and their families have been let down for too many years. They don't see any happy future and feel no one cares about them (which is true sadly...)

We have presidential elections in 1 1/2 year and far right movements are still strong in France, especially after the recent events. The measures Macron is talking about in the article just concern a very small part of the problem but it will speak to a lot of people tired with the recents attacks.

Edit : Typo and grammar. Sorry about that.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,199
Damn, the mods and this thread really tried their best to spin this into "see, ALL kids are getting ID numbers for the greater good of getting an education, it's not an issue! :)"
Or maybe it's because there were posters here who apparently genuinely thought this was an ID only made for Muslim kids or something?
I don't know, as the OP you might want your thread to be informative.
(edited, came off as way more inflammatory than I meant, seriously)
 
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Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,101
UK
Prohibits any political activism for Muslims? What the fuck. That has rings of fascism right there and seems ripe for obfuscation. Eg say you want to protest for Palestinian liberation from Israeli colonisation or settlement theft, or to support BDS, how long before that is seen as political activism or the waters are muddied on things that are similar?

The whole ID and 6 months in prison thing also has tinges of authoritarianism, and could very easily be misappropriated to target minorities and poorer parents, who may simply struggle with enforcing attendance on their children due to social issues and a greater number of inflexible commitments (eg working unusual hours or multiple jobs just to survive).
Yup, it's quite blatant but a lot of liberals are not picking up the subtext behind these actions and end up justifying authoritarianism. Like if you really think jailing parents for failing to enforce their students' attendance is going to reduce Islamic terrorism,
morgan-freeman-good-luck.gif
.
 

Cuv8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
19
Their intent is to prohibit religious extremist people to take power and bend the laws to their will. We don't want ANY relationship between state and religion in France. Is that difficult to understand ?
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,700
Siloam Springs
Thank you! I wish school attendance was compulsory here in the US. Private/homeschooling is a breeding ground for dangerous right-wing extremism here in the US.

Except when it's not. There are extreme cases where it's not safe for your child to attend school because your child is Autistic and the school districts in the area you live in believe in restraining your Autistic child when he/she has a meltdown. Now, on the other side of that coin, my town of 20,000 has 400+ families that homeschool and my guess is that 99% of those households teach their kids horrible damaging religion based learning (not my household).

This ID situation in France smells of the Nazi's beginning to hem in the Jews (my people) in the 1930s. White (mostly Christian based, even if not practicing) people scared of their own shadow when expected to make a change because of a growth in population with a new demographic.
 

the_id

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,144
Muslim lives has to be one of most worthless lives in this era we live in.

Palestinian
Yemeni
Ughiur
Rohingya
Kashmiri
Immigrants in France
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,637
It uses secularism as an excuse for their Islamophobia. They wanted to ban hijabs in schools, so they put a ban on overt religious attire.
Its also accepted in schools to show anti-islamic imagery (like the charlie hebdo cartoons that showed the islamic prophet as a pedophile, or a terrorist) with the excuse that it's free speech.
It's not an excuse, it's literally exercising your right to free speech! The problem is with the religious nutjobs who get offended by shit like that to the point where they become violent.

You remember the last time a European country assigned numbers to a minority population? Except that time they tattooed it.
There are minorities with National ID numbers, driver's license, SSN's etc. in pretty much every country on Earth and it's not exclusive to them, but rather the entire population of those countries. Drawing parallels with WW2 is really disingenuous.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,206
It's not an excuse, it's literally exercising your right to free speech! The problem is with the religious nutjobs who get offended by shit like that to the point where they become violent.


There are minorities with National ID numbers, driver's license, SSN's etc. in pretty much every country on Earth and it's not exclusive to them, but rather the entire population of those countries. Drawing parallels with WW2 is really disingenuous.
Not if, like Macron himself admitted, the new rules were created to target a minority population.

Also just because the rules/law don't only target a minority population doesn't somehow negate the reason for their creation or how they'll be used. Just look at Trump's totally not a Muslim travel ban, or stop and frisk in New York, or almost any other law that somehow always ends up negatively affecting immigrants and people of colour disproportionately.

Also I'd believe in Macron and his ilk if they would do some self reflection and look at how prevalent racism and prejudice is in France and actually take steps to fix it. This isn't it.

www.nytimes.com

A Racial Awakening in France, Where Race Is a Taboo Topic (Published 2020)

With an eye on the United States, children of immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean are bringing race into the public discourse, in a perceived challenge to France’s universalism.

www.theatlantic.com

France Is Officially Color-Blind. Reality Isn’t.

The country’s prestigious grandes écoles illustrate the gulf between its universal ideals and its day-to-day life.
 
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Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,347
The law changed in 2019. Schooling is mandatory from the September of the year in which they turn three. It's too early in my, and most counties', opinions.
My apologies, I missed that part of the 2019 law.

And other countries are entitled to their opinion, but pre-schools in France are in place, under that name at least, since the famous Jules Ferry laws in 1881 (the same who championed a law allowing homeschooling the next year). Opening them to 2-years-old kids happened decades ago and plenty of knowledge was gathered during that time.

I don't trust our current Minister of Education and I didn't speak about the state, only about the teachers: most of them are competent professionals and know how to work with young children.
Except when it's not. There are extreme cases where it's not safe for your child to attend school because your child is Autistic and the school districts in the area you live in believe in restraining your Autistic child when he/she has a meltdown. Now, on the other side of that coin, my town of 20,000 has 400+ families that homeschool and my guess is that 99% of those households teach their kids horrible damaging religion based learning (not my household).
The law is still not voted, but they are speaking about possible exceptions allowing homeschooling in a couple of cases.

And the French law states that children who need help or special cares to attend schools must be provided that help/care. But like a lot of nice ideas, it's not correctly funded (talk is cheap is the motto of ours governments, especially the current one) even for things as simple as buying teachers special masks allowing lips reading.
We don't want ANY relationship between state and religion in France. Is that difficult to understand ?
But we do. Really. And not only in place where some religions are funded by the state (like Alsace-Moselle, because its is still under a 1802 law, because it was part of Germany in 1905) but everywhere else too. The 1905 law is simply saying that in order to treat all religions fairly, the state itself cannot have a one.

But the 1905 law isn't just a law separating churches (the plural is important) and the state, it's also a law organising our freedoms: this is a law that says the state may have to provide religions access to people in public schools, prisons or the army, because, in those places, those people may not have access to their religion if the state was not forced to grant their religions access.

To pick one of those places, that's why you have priests, rabbis or imams (and possibility ministers of other religions) in the army, because soldiers are not always able to go to a place of faith: the place of faith will come to them, so to speak. That's also why the army is the only French administration allowed to know about the religions of its employees: it wants to know which funeral rites it should follow when a soldier is killed during a mission, funeral rites being the last time someone can use their religious freedoms.

And it's hypocritical to say 'We don't want ANY relationship between state and religion' right when our president is building a new relationship with one of them. Honestly, I don't understand how it's legal, under the 1905 law to pressure religious people like Macron is doing right now and like Sarkozy did before. Maybe it is, but it certainly feel hypocritical to act like that while speaking about that law and laïcité.

Religions are entitled to their opinions (the French Catholic Church is really not shy to use its right to speak its mind) and they are regularly consulted about ethical matters (their advice is not, of course, always followed because at the end of the day, it's the French Parliement that decide what the French law is, not religions) and religions are allowed access to public spaces (funnily enough, after the 1905 was voted, it was easier to organise a religious procession in the street and more of them happened than before). Since 1905, we even have priests, in the priest's clothes no less, as MP, inside the Assemblée Nationale, voting laws.

This small book, in French, is really good. It's about debunking myths around laïcité: https://boutique.ldh-france.org/livres/148-en-finir-avec-les-idees-fausses-sur-la-laicite.html

Also I'd believe in Macron and his ilk if they would actually do some self reflection and look at how prevalent racism and prejudice is in France and actually take steps to fix it. This isn't it.
He did speak, a little, about the responsibility of the state in the current situation during his recent speech, but he also is the president who shut down, quite publicly, a plan build at his demand by Jean-Louis Borloo to help the poorest cities, among other things who had a bad impact on those cities. The most recent one being a lack of funding dedicated to those cities -- and poor people in general -- in his great funding plan to fight the current recession.

But, yes, you're 100% right: he and other people at his level of power need to stop hiding behind great principles and look at the reality of France. Principles are a nice thing to have, but only if they are really applied and measures are swiftly taken when it's not the case.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
It's not an excuse, it's literally exercising your right to free speech! The problem is with the religious nutjobs who get offended by shit like that to the point where they become violent.


There are minorities with National ID numbers, driver's license, SSN's etc. in pretty much every country on Earth and it's not exclusive to them, but rather the entire population of those countries. Drawing parallels with WW2 is really disingenuous.
And I have also further posted that I didn't know the number was for all kids.
 

Keuja

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,183
Muslim lives has to be one of most worthless lives in this era we live in.

Palestinian
Yemeni
Ughiur
Rohingya
Kashmiri
Immigrants in France
The fact that you put immigrants in France on the same level as the other tragedies really shows that you have no clue on what you're talking about.
 

Stat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,158
I do wonder the limits of saying "Hey, you can absolutely go to a school that teaches Muslim traditions but they must pass like a standardized test".

Happens in Ontario I believe but I remember a former coworker who's 10/11 year old daughter born in Canada, could not speak English. She only spoke Russian, and attended a Russian school.

I get the idea that forcing kids into certain schools is an awful idea (I think of Native Canadians sent to residential schools) but on the other hand, should the government have some say on how parents "parent" and set their kid up for adulthood? Like I don't really get what my former coworker was doing. But it seems negligent that they literally cant speak either of the two official languages in Canada despite being born in a country were the vast majority of the population communicates this way. Was the plan to keep them in the Russian community forever?

Though we also had stories in Toronto where kids were being taught ultra conservatism which is highly fucked up imo (think women cant sit with men, you don't need to learn science/maths, just religious traditions).

Hoping someone can enlighten my ignorance. Just rambling / thinking at 3am and tired.
 

Rimon-Hanit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
329
I mean it isn't the U.S you aren't going to get the level of religious freedom over there. I don't see anything sinister here.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
Feel like I should mention this again.

www.adamsmith.org

Are 70% of France’s prison inmates Muslims? — Adam Smith Institute

There’s an incredible statistic out there that says that 70% of the population of France’s prisons are Muslims, despite only 8-10% of the population being Muslim. It’s everywhere – in this Telegraph article by Harriet Alexander , in this Washington Post article by Molly Moore, in this N

www.npr.org

Inside French Prisons, A Struggle To Combat Radicalization

Some of the home-grown terrorists who have struck France in recent years were petty criminals who were radicalized in prison.

www.theguardian.com

Are French prisons ‘finishing schools’ for terrorism? | Christopher de Bellaigue

The long read: Alarmed that its jails are creating jihadis, France has launched a scheme to turn young Muslim prisoners back from radicalisation. But can prisons solve a problem society has utterly failed to repair?

When we know how a population is being marginalized, it's harder to take on faith that questionable efforts that are explicitly targeting them are anything less than further attempts to marginalize them.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,286
Seems like there is lots of fake news being pushed from certain american political spectrums.

Thread:
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,700
Siloam Springs
And the French law states that children who need help or special cares to attend schools must be provided that help/care. But like a lot of nice ideas, it's not correctly funded (talk is cheap is the motto of ours governments, especially the current one) even for things as simple as buying teachers special masks allowing lips reading.

It's good there are provisions with for children with needs, and seems par for the course of how sporadically those provisions are deployed.