MafiEra Season 15 Review |OT| Brought to you by Kojima Productions

Sawneeks · Feb 16, 2020

Welcome to the MafiEra Review thread! Here we reflect on the games we had this season and discuss the events that happened over this time. Thank you to all gamerunners, game watchers, reviewers, players, and spectators who participated this season! We could not continue as a community without you all.

These were the games we had this Season:

Death Stranding by Natiko
Mini Mafia VI by empressdonna & Stuart444
Scooby Doo by Aeleus & Sawneeks
Stardew Valley by Dr. Monkey & Pedro
Conspiracy 2 by Fran

Now, we have a couple of topics that popped up this season that we want to discuss with the community. If you feel there is something we did not cover or that you wish to express your thoughts on you are more than welcome to do so here. We grow and thrive as a community because of this discussion.

Enforcement of the Pronoun Rule. In the review thread for the last season we had a discussion on the rising problem of misgendering individuals and using the incorrect pronouns in a game. From that we tightened up our rule regarding pronouns and promised we would enforce them far more strictly than we had in the past. We had several warnings given this season because of improper pronoun use and even the removal of players because of continued misuse of pronouns. We want to reiterate that we will be continuing to enforce this rule moving forward and that misgendering a player is not something we will tolerate.
1. In response to this, the amazing and wonderful Fireblend has created a new tool that can be used to help keep the player list for a game handy at all times. You can find it HERE. Please note this tool may not be available to everyone and will not fix everything - we still need to be very mindful of others' pronouns.
Dropping out of a game. We understand that committing to a mafia game is asking a lot of time and energy out of a person when doing so and this is why we highlight the time commitment needed in our regular OTs. While we all understand changes in work, family, home life, and one's own health we would like to reiterate that dropping out of a game is disruptive to the game itself. We would never ask someone to stay in a game if they cannot continue to do so but dropping out of a game should be seen as a last resort. If you are unsure about your schedule before joining a game there is always the opportunity to join a future game, or you can join the replacement list.
Replacements. We wanted to ask the community what their general preference was for instances in a game where a replacement is needed but there are none available. Should we pause the game until one can be found? Do we modkill the slot?
Updates since the last Review Thread. In the previous review thread we made quite a lot of changes! We want your thoughts on how you feel those are going. These changes included: Timezones are UTC only, listing game watchers in a game's OT, and a variety of rule clarifications/updates that can be found HERE. Let us know what you think!

If you would like to be added to the permanent Replacement List, now is the time to do so! Myself, Dr. Monkey, and cabot can always be contacted if you would like to be added to the list but the review thread seemed like the perfect time to make a general call for sign ups. :>

The current permanent Replacement List includes: weemadarthur, TheChuggernaut, and lokiduck!

We also want to reiterate the call for more Game Reviewers! As stated by Dr. Monkey in our OT, game reviewers are a huge part of our community and keep things moving so we can have new games to play. We have very helpful guides on how to measure balance, consider whether a game is fun or broken, and more! If you are interested, please contact Roytheone or Fireblend! Reviewing is a great way to analyze games from another point of view as well and offers some insider insight on how mechanics work - which only helps when playing!

With this season coming to an end and a brand new one beginning we are looking for banners for the new OT! The games that are currently slated to run in the next few months will be in the spoiler box below in no particular order, so they can serve as inspiration. Send any banners to myself, Dr. Monkey, or cabot!

Next season's games will likely include: Avatar: The Last Airbender, Nightmare at 20,000 Feet, and TWO SUPER SPECIAL mystery games!

Stuart444 · Feb 16, 2020

Sawneeks said:
You can find it HERE.

I'll read over everything in a bit but once again, Febe doing the Mafia Gods work :P

Stuart444 · Feb 16, 2020

Sawneeks said:
Dropping out of a game. We understand that committing to a mafia game is asking a lot of time and energy out of a person when doing so and this is why we highlight the time commitment needed in our regular OTs. While we all understand changes in work, family, home life, and one's own health we would like to reiterate that dropping out of a game is disruptive to the game itself. We would never ask someone to stay in a game if they cannot continue to do so but dropping out of a game should be seen as a last resort. If you are unsure about your schedule before joining a game there is always the opportunity to join a future game, or you can join the replacement list.

I know I've done this a few times but last game, I really didn't expect things to get to the point where I had to switch out. >.< so yeah, apologies and all that.

Sawneeks said:
We wanted to ask the community what their general preference was for instances in a game where a replacement is needed but there are none available. Should we pause the game until one can be found? Do we modkill the slot?

Modkill the slot if there is no realistic possibility of one being found. Pause the game if there is a possibility of one being found. Aka use your judgement I think.

Sawneeks said:
Updates since the last Review Thread. In the previous review thread we made quite a lot of changes! We want your thoughts on how you feel those are going. These changes included: Timezones are UTC only, listing game watchers in a game's OT, and a variety of rule clarifications/updates that can be found HERE. Let us know what you think!

UTC is good for keeping things uniformed but many when signing up still use the old system and can cause hassle. That said, I'm fine if we stick with UTC or not, idc either way.

Game watchers being listed in a games OT is really good though, good reference for if we need to contact them.

turmoil7 · Feb 16, 2020

pause/modkill matter: always modkill imo, pausing will only increase the anxiety of everyone involved and disrupt the schedule

Dr. Monkey · Feb 16, 2020

Febe's new tool is awesome.

empressdonna · Feb 16, 2020

I'm sorry for dropping out of Stardew Valley because of my mental state and I feel bad that I probably won't be signing up for games this season either. I just don't think I'm in the right headspace for it mafia friends <3.

Stantastic · Feb 16, 2020

Oh that Tool from Fireblend will be extremely helpful.

For replacement searching, maybe a middle ground of like pausing for 24 hours and if none are found then modkilling?

Fireblend · Feb 16, 2020

Sawneeks said:
In response to this, the amazing and wonderful Fireblend has created a new tool that can be used to help keep the player list for a game handy at all times. You can find it HERE. Please note this tool may not be available to everyone and will not fix everything - we still need to be very mindful of others' pronouns.

To elaborate a bit on this, it's a very simple extension, but I've found myself having to check player pronouns before posting whenever I'm unfamiliar with other players I'm referencing, so I thought it'd be useful to have the player info list handy. This might help not only for pronouns but also making sure you're spelling names correctly in your votes, checking player nicknames, etc.

I don't think anyone in our community is misgendering anyone out of some malicious intent, so I'm hoping this can work as "training wheels" to train ourselves to take a couple seconds to check our fellow players' pronoun preferences before risking misgendering them, even if it's accidental. Regardless of whether you're using the tool or not, do the work and make sure, the info isn't ever more than 2 clicks away. It's in the game OP, the vote tool, this new extension, etc.

Faddy · Feb 16, 2020

I think there is too much pressure to post. People need to respect the minimum post limit both ways.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to be away from the game thread for decent periods of time. There is a reason the day phase is usually 48 hours, it is supposed to give people enough time to do other things while still participating. I feel like some people feel pressure to replace out if they get even a little busy.

I think you need to let the game runner have discretion on replacements but ultimately I think mod-killing is sometimes necessary and should be used over pausing the game.

You can add me to the permanent replacement list.

Dr. Monkey · Feb 16, 2020

On that, Faddy, I wonder sometimes if we shouldn't reduce the minimum in late game. Maybe drop to seven if the game hits a certain benchmark. This is the first time I've brought it up but it has started to occur to me, watching longer games. I don't think I'd go all the way to five, but just something I'm thinking about.

TheChuggernaut · Feb 16, 2020

I think the big issue is that if you post a lot, get busy and start having to just make minimum, you're most likely going to get scum read for it

EzekelRAGE · Feb 16, 2020

Balance: I think Fran's game from scum perspective relied too heavily on non scum kills.

Replacements: Don't pause the game, mod kill over pausing.

I don't think I should've been modkilled. I was in a thread, by myself and I caught it immediately.

Pronouns: Let gamerunners and wronged party handle it. Don't need various ppl dogpiling on the post as well.

Frustration/Replacements: I understand things happen and ppl need to replace out, which is understandable. My issue is not replacing out or being on the fence about it and complaining in the game thread about it. If you are going to replace out, do it. The players in the thread don't need an explanation or reason. If not then don't complain in the thread about not replacing out. It messes up the mood imo. It was just this game, other players in previous games have done it as well.

Outside of game frustrations - in general should be kept outside of the game. Let gamerunners know the issue then act accordingly if you want to replace out or not.

SweetNicole · Feb 17, 2020

To address the situation that came up in Conspiracy Mafia 2, there should be changes to the rules giving the game watchers, not just the game runner, the authority to enforce the rules, particularly for situations when mod-killing is and isn't required. For players, this ensures there are less mistakes as it is far less likely mistakes will be made in a quorum of rules experts. For game runners, this could take the pressure off of the game runner by having the game watchers handle rule enforcement.

Natiko · Feb 17, 2020

EzekelRAGE You had already received one more warning than you should have been allowed. If I misgendered you or was hostile towards you and belittling, it wouldn't be okay just because it happens in a thread you don't currently have access to - all threads are public in the end. You did self correct, but you also repeated the same mistake with the very same player when you had already been given more chances than were outlined in the rules. We've heard numerous times from our players that are frequently misgendered that it is hurtful and makes them feel unwelcome.

Natiko · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
To address the situation that came up in Conspiracy Mafia 2, there should be changes to the rules giving the game watchers, not just the game runner, the authority to enforce the rules, particularly for situations when mod-killing is and isn't required. For players, this ensures there are less mistakes as it is far less likely mistakes will be made in a quorum of rules experts. For game runners, this takes pressure off of the game runner by having the game watchers handle rule enforcement.

I do want to respond to this too. This is also partly to blame on me. I had never been presented with a situation like this as a game watcher. While it is not outlined above, we did have a talk about it amongst the mods and ensured there's a more firm understanding of how to handle such situations. I know Fran feels bad over how everything unfolded, and I do as well. Going forward we should be better equipped to push for the appropriate penalties to be levied equally.

SweetNicole · Feb 17, 2020

Fireblend said:
To elaborate a bit on this, it's a very simple extension, but I've found myself having to check player pronouns before posting whenever I'm unfamiliar with other players I'm referencing, so I thought it'd be useful to have the player info list handy. This might help not only for pronouns but also making sure you're spelling names correctly in your votes, checking player nicknames, etc.

I don't think anyone in our community is misgendering anyone out of some malicious intent, so I'm hoping this can work as "training wheels" to train ourselves to take a couple seconds to check our fellow players' pronoun preferences before risking misgendering them, even if it's accidental. Regardless of whether you're using the tool or not, do the work and make sure, the info isn't ever more than 2 clicks away. It's in the game OP, the vote tool, this new extension, etc.

This is a great tool and pretty much addresses my biggest complaint about the pronoun rule regarding accessibility.

A few suggestions:
1) remove the dash and everything after it; timezones clutter it up and aren't really relevant most of the time in mafia imo
2) name then pronouns would probably be more helpful than pronouns then names; also if you could find a way to sort it alphabetically that'd be great too
3) will this automatically update/take into account replacements?

Faddy said:
I think there is too much pressure to post. People need to respect the minimum post limit both ways.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to be away from the game thread for decent periods of time. There is a reason the day phase is usually 48 hours, it is supposed to give people enough time to do other things while still participating. I feel like some people feel pressure to replace out if they get even a little busy.

I think you need to let the game runner have discretion on replacements but ultimately I think mod-killing is sometimes necessary and should be used over pausing the game.

You can add me to the permanent replacement list.

As someone who can only dedicate a few hours every 48h day, it can be tough to keep up with the thread, and it can definitely lead to feeling pressured to get a replacement simply because you're not feeling active enough to keep up.

One thing that might be helpful is for people to post less in games. I know this is could potentially hurt town, but do you really need to post 150 times in a single 48h period in one game? Probably not. I don't think there should really be a rule mandating a post cap, but perhaps some kind of recommended/suggested average post count that everyone should shoot for for a normal mafia game?

Natiko said:
I do want to respond to this too. This is also partly to blame on me. I had never been presented with a situation like this as a game watcher. While it is not outlined above, we did have a talk about it amongst the mods and ensured there's a more firm understanding of how to handle such situations. I know Fran feels bad over how everything unfolded, and I do as well. Going forward we should be better equipped to push for the appropriate penalties to be levied equally.

It's ok; like I said I don't hold it against anyone. Mistakes happen. It sucked being on the receiving end of said mistake, but I totally get that sometimes they just happen.

Do you mind elaborating on what a 'more firm understanding' and 'better equipped' means, exactly? I guess my confusion is what was the issue that prevented it from being addressed immediately? Was there some kind of break down in communication that prevented the situation from being resolved? A lack of understanding of the proper procedures? Etc.

EzekelRAGE · Feb 17, 2020

Natiko said:
EzekelRAGE You had already received one more warning than you should have been allowed. If I misgendered you or was hostile towards you and belittling, it wouldn't be okay just because it happens in a thread you don't currently have access to - all threads are public in the end. You did self correct, but you also repeated the same mistake with the very same player when you had already been given more chances than were outlined in the rules. We've heard numerous times from our players that are frequently misgendered that it is hurtful and makes them feel unwelcome.

Purposely being hostile and belittling isnt the same as mistakenly misgendering someone in a flow of thoughts and correcting yourself.

Natiko · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
This is a great tool and pretty much addresses my biggest complaint about the pronoun rule regarding accessibility.

A few suggestions:
1) remove the dash and everything after it; timezones clutter it up and aren't really relevant most of the time in mafia imo
2) name then pronouns would probably be more helpful than pronouns then names; also if you could find a way to sort it alphabetically that'd be great too
3) will this automatically update/take into account replacements?

As someone who can only dedicate a few hours every 48h day, it can be tough to keep up with the thread, and it can definitely lead to feeling pressured to get a replacement simply because you're not feeling active enough to keep up.

One thing that might be helpful is for people to post less in games. I know this is could potentially hurt town, but do you really need to post 150 times in a single 48h period in one game? Probably not. I don't think there should really be a rule mandating a post cap, but perhaps some kind of recommended/suggested average post count that everyone should shoot for for a normal mafia game?

It's ok; like I said I don't hold it against anyone. Mistakes happen. It sucked being on the receiving end of said mistake, but I totally get that sometimes they just happen.

Do you mind elaborating on what a 'more firm understanding' and 'better equipped' means, exactly? I guess my confusion is what was the issue that prevented it from being addressed immediately? Was there some kind of break down in communication that prevented the situation from being resolved? A lack of understanding of the proper procedures? Etc.

Essentially there was a point in time early on where Fran's confusion over the number of infractions was observed, but Zeke had already been given a second warning. I thought the ruling should be reversed, but the other game watcher wasn't around to chime in. By the time we had all weighed in so much time had passed that it felt wrong to rescind the warning that far down the road. This is, I believe, only the second time ever we have ran into anything remotely like this (albeit very different contexts) in dozens of games, and I was not present for the first one. Now I know to be more proactive in addressing it instead of letting so much time lapse, and in general we will be sure to remind gamerunners to follow and enforce the rules just as they would want the players to.

EzekelRAGE said:
Purposely being hostile and belittling isnt the same as mistakenly misgendering someone in a flow of thoughts and correcting yourself.

But both can hurt the target just as much, if not more since being hostile usually means someone is just being a jerk while misgendering someone can feel like an attack on their personal identity and how they view themselves. It's somerhing that is handled poorly in so many situations, we can hold ourselves to a higher standard Zeke. Just because misgendering might not personally impact you doesn't change how hurtful it is to others.

EzekelRAGE · Feb 17, 2020

Natiko said:
Essentially there was a point in time early on where Fran's confusion over the number of infractions was observed, but Zeke had already been given a second warning. I thought the ruling should be reversed, but the other game watcher wasn't around to chime in. By the time we had all weighed in so much time had passed that it felt wrong to rescind the warning that far down the road. This is, I believe, only the second time ever we have ran into anything remotely like this (albeit very different contexts) in dozens of games, and I was not present for the first one. Now I know to be more proactive in addressing it instead of letting so much time lapse, and in general we will be sure to remind gamerunners to follow and enforce the rules just as they would want the players to.

But both can hurt the target just as much, if not more since being hostile usually means someone is just being a jerk while misgendering someone can feel like an attack on their personal identity and how they view themselves. It's somerhing that is handled poorly in so many situations, we can hold ourselves to a higher standard Zeke. Just because misgendering might not personally impact you doesn't change how hurtful it is to others.

I think it happened because the sentiment was I should've been replaced earlier anyway. At this point I'm just arguing cuz I'm salty. If all that other drama behind the scenes didn't happen, doubt I would've been modkilled in that situation.

I honestly don't know what happened this game. I've played with ael b4 and don't remember me messing up their pronouns like this, if at all.

Alexem · Feb 17, 2020

With regards to the pronoun rule, I agree with Nicole that it would be a good idea to let the watchers assist with enforcement if the runner isn't available. It goes without saying that the runner can't be expected to go through each and every post of the game - including the associated threads on OM - all day, every day around the clock. If everything's left to the runner, that just increases the chance of something getting missed, so having the watchers can assist would probably help to make sure that the rule is enforced consistently.

For replacements, I think that modkilling should be the last resort if possible, but I appreciate that's not always practical - especially if the reserve list has been exhausted. A brief pause might be OK if it's thought that there's a good chance of getting an off-list replacement very quickly, either from the permanent list or from an appeal on Discord, but it shouldn't be for long - an hour or two, tops. Modkilling might also become unavoidable towards endgame when the game reaches the point where it's been going on for too long for a sub to reasonably be expected to catch up, but I think the line for that would have to be worked out on a game-by-game basis.

There is one other point that I wanted to bring up in this review, which is with regards to Mini Mafias. In Mini Mafia VI, the setup in use was declared at the start of the game - not the specific seed or rolls involved, of course, but it did give enough information about the roles and numbers involved for the players to make conclusions based on the details of the setup as much as what went on in the game itself. For future minis, would it perhaps be more interesting to conceal the exact setup type until the end of the game? (There should still be confirmation from the reviewers that the game will be using a known fair setup.) That might encourage players to deduce the roles in play more from the game as it progresses, rather than from details about what the setup allows.

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

EzekelRAGE said:
If all that other drama behind the scenes didn't happen, doubt I would've been modkilled in that situation.

No, It would have happened anyway. And this is because something we never talked about: How to deal with infractions in a secret chat. If a player commit an infraction in the scum chat and we need to replace him (or even if he commits the first in scum chat and a second in the main thread) every player will be aware that they are part of a secret chat when they can't find one of the warnings in the thread. So either we need to modkill that player or we need to not count the infractions commited in a secret chat.

I will talk about more things later, I want to say something about replacements but I need to do some work now.

Fanto · Feb 17, 2020

Sawneeks said:
Replacements. We wanted to ask the community what their general preference was for instances in a game where a replacement is needed but there are none available. Should we pause the game until one can be found? Do we modkill the slot?

If it's during the day phase, probably just modkill the slot if there's no one on the replacement list. The unknown amount of time/energy needed to pause and find a replacement could hurt the game in my opinion, especially depending on the context of the slot in the game state at that time.

If someone replaces out at night though and there's plenty of time to try seeking a replacement, I would try doing everything to find one before modkilling, but if you can't find one during the night then go ahead and modkill at the start of the day.

Sawneeks said:
If you would like to be added to the permanent Replacement List, now is the time to do so!

You can add me.

Faddy said:
I think there is too much pressure to post. People need to respect the minimum post limit both ways.

It is perfectly acceptable for people to be away from the game thread for decent periods of time. There is a reason the day phase is usually 48 hours, it is supposed to give people enough time to do other things while still participating. I feel like some people feel pressure to replace out if they get even a little busy.

Dr. Monkey said:
On that, Faddy, I wonder sometimes if we shouldn't reduce the minimum in late game. Maybe drop to seven if the game hits a certain benchmark. This is the first time I've brought it up but it has started to occur to me, watching longer games. I don't think I'd go all the way to five, but just something I'm thinking about.

Just to jump off of this quick, I think both phase length and post minimum should be reduced in the late game. Maybe we could try figuring out some sort of rule of thumb for gamerunners to go by there, like when there are X total players left in the game and it is Day X or later, then transition to 24/24 and 5 posts a day or something?

SweetNicole said:
One thing that might be helpful is for people to post less in games. I know this is could potentially hurt town, but do you really need to post 150 times in a single 48h period in one game? Probably not. I don't think there should really be a rule mandating a post cap, but perhaps some kind of recommended/suggested average post count that everyone should shoot for for a normal mafia game?

I remember hearing talk on Mafia Universe about games with daily post caps as well as post minimums, yeah. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the concept, because no I don't need to make 150 posts a day, and I often feel selfish and inconsiderate when I do.

Alexem said:
There is one other point that I wanted to bring up in this review, which is with regards to Mini Mafias. In Mini Mafia VI, the setup in use was declared at the start of the game - not the specific seed or rolls involved, of course, but it did give enough information about the roles and numbers involved for the players to make conclusions based on the details of the setup as much as what went on in the game itself. For future minis, would it perhaps be more interesting to conceal the exact setup type until the end of the game? (There should still be confirmation from the reviewers that the game will be using a known fair setup.) That might encourage players to deduce the roles in play more from the game as it progresses, rather than from details about what the setup allows.

I think part of the difference in playing in a semi-open or open setup is the fact that the players at least somewhat know what to expect from it though compared to a closed unique setup. I do agree that C9++ in particular is almost always going to turn into a puzzle to solve after a few flips and claims come out, but there are a lot of other setups out there too.

I think we should instead just encourage people looking to run Minis to maybe try something other than C9++, there's no rule saying that's the only Mini setup we can use here.

I'll just go ahead and say now that the Mini I will personally be running in the future is not going to use a setup that we've used before, and I know of another one that I will be co-running that is also using a new-to-us setup.

Fireblend · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
This is a great tool and pretty much addresses my biggest complaint about the pronoun rule regarding accessibility.

A few suggestions:
1) remove the dash and everything after it; timezones clutter it up and aren't really relevant most of the time in mafia imo
2) name then pronouns would probably be more helpful than pronouns then names; also if you could find a way to sort it alphabetically that'd be great too
3) will this automatically update/take into account replacements?

I can implement all these, but for #3 we'll need a tiny bit of help from gamerunners. I'm grabbing the info from the game op's player_info block (unfortunately due to browser security policies I can't make requests outside of era) which we can't modify without hurting the vote tool, but I have a workaround.

Lone_Prodigy · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
One thing that might be helpful is for people to post less in games.

Faddy said:
I think there is too much pressure to post. People need to respect the minimum post limit both ways.

Dr. Monkey said:
I wonder sometimes if we shouldn't reduce the minimum

Finally you see the light.

Alexem · Feb 17, 2020

Fanto said:
I think part of the difference in playing in a semi-open or open setup is the fact that the players at least somewhat know what to expect from it though compared to a closed unique setup. I do agree that C9++ in particular is almost always going to turn into a puzzle to solve after a few flips and claims come out, but there are a lot of other setups out there too.

I think we should instead just encourage people looking to run Minis to maybe try something other than C9++, there's no rule saying that's the only Mini setup we can use here.

I'll just go ahead and say now that the Mini I will personally be running in the future is not going to use a setup that we've used before, and I know of another one that I will be co-running that is also using a new-to-us setup.

Perhaps it might be better left to the runner's preference? I should mention that this isn't something that I'm especially pushing for, it's just that I remember this came up as a point for discussion during MM VI, so I didn't want it to get forgotten in the review.

Dr. Monkey · Feb 17, 2020

Fanto said:
Just to jump off of this quick, I think both phase length and post minimum should be reduced in the late game. Maybe we could try figuring out some sort of rule of thumb for gamerunners to go by there, like when there are X total players left in the game and it is Day X or later, then transition to 24/24 and 5 posts a day or something?

Often gamerunners do shorten phases when it gets to later game, but it depends on a lot of factors - are people still discussing a lot, how's the timezone spread, etc. 24 hour phases means anyone who's not within 5-6 hours of the core group of remaining posters may only get to weigh in once. It has an impact.

My gut is that five is always too low to get a sense of someone but dropping a little from ten at late game, I can see some room there. But honestly, the post minimum is the thing that has been most hashed over in these threads and I am reluctant to mess with it.

As for post caps, I wouldn't mind it but I think they should be lifted maybe ~2-3 hours before EoD. Faddy has played light games on MU (with post caps) and I've looked at a few and everyone saves their posts for EoD so you get dead phases and then a flurry of activity. It makes the longer phase useless, but we need it for timezones.

Dr. Monkey · Feb 17, 2020

I have a few other issues I want to weigh in on but I'm still thinking on what I want to say, so I'll hold off for a minute.

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

Stuart444 said:
I know I've done this a few times but last game, I really didn't expect things to get to the point where I had to switch out. >.< so yeah, apologies and all that.

A few times is your last 4 games in a row. If you have jetlag and you are tired you can just stop posting, you had more than 10 posts at the time so you could just wait for the rest of the day and the night phase until you felt better. Even if when the new day started you could asked a gamerunner to allow you to make less than 10 posts if you were feeling tired.

It's really frustrating for a gamerunner to look for a replacement and it's even more frustrating to have to look for replacements during D1. Conspiracy had to use half of it's replacements before the first day ended and it felt bad because it was really hard to get players to sign up to the game and I already knew that I would need players in the future and didn't knew if I would get them.

Dr. Monkey said:
On that, Faddy, I wonder sometimes if we shouldn't reduce the minimum in late game. Maybe drop to seven if the game hits a certain benchmark. This is the first time I've brought it up but it has started to occur to me, watching longer games. I don't think I'd go all the way to five, but just something I'm thinking about.

After a certain point in the game I stop caring about minimum post. After day 5 or 6 all the players usually have enought post for players to make a read even if they don't post a lot. In Conspiracy I didn't even bothered with minimum posts as I didn't have any player to replace into the game anyway.

Fanto · Feb 17, 2020

Alexem said:
Perhaps it might be better left to the runner's preference? I should mention that this isn't something that I'm especially pushing for, it's just that I remember this came up as a point for discussion during MM VI, so I didn't want it to get forgotten in the review.

Yeah I'm not sure. I guess I'll let someone else weigh in, but I had thought that one of the points of having a pre-constructed setup was to allow the players to know what to expect in terms of roles and balance as opposed to how a closed setup that someone designed on their own works.

Dr. Monkey said:
As for post caps, I wouldn't mind it but I think they should be lifted maybe ~2-3 hours before EoD. Faddy has played light games on MU (with post caps) and I've looked at a few and everyone saves their posts for EoD so you get dead phases and then a flurry of activity. It makes the longer phase useless, but we need it for timezones.

I think the bolded would make sense if we wanted to try implementing something like this, yeah.

empressdonna · Feb 17, 2020

Fran said:
A few times is your last 4 games in a row.

I know stu will get to this but I feel 100% to blame for him dropping out of Stardew, if what happened irl didn't happen, neither of us would have probably dropped out.

As for conspiracy 2, jetlag hit us both bad even though i was just spectating. It lasted a lot longer than we expected though I don't think stu maybe realized he could have asked the gamerunners if it was okay to post less? I'll let him talk for himself on that but that would be my guess.

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

empressdonna said:
I know stu will get to this but I feel 100% to blame for him dropping out of Stardew, if what happened irl didn't happen, neither of us would have probably dropped out.

I don't know why he dropped any game and it's not of my concern. But when you are running a game and a player ask for a replacement D1 and then you realize that the same player has asked for replacements 4 games in a row it bothers, because you start seeing a pattern. I'm sure they are justified but it still feels frustrating.

I didn't said anything to Stu because it wouldn't want to pressure anyone to play a game they don't want or can't play. But players need to ask for a replacement only as a last option.

empressdonna said:
As for conspiracy 2, jetlag hit us both bad even though i was just spectating. It lasted a lot longer than we expected though I don't think stu maybe realized he could have asked the gamerunners if it was okay to post less? I'll let him talk for himself on that but that would be my guess.

It's in the rules:

14. If a player posts fewer than 5 posts in a day phase without alerting the gamerunner to their absence, they will be removed from the game without a warning.

Stuart444 · Feb 17, 2020

Fran said:
A few times is your last 4 games in a row.

Yup.

Fran said:
If you have jetlag and you are tired you can just stop posting, you had more than 10 posts at the time so you could just wait for the rest of the day and the night phase until you felt better. Even if when the new day started you could asked a gamerunner to allow you to make less than 10 posts if you were feeling tired.

Nah, I replace out when I have to. I know it's frustrating as a game runner to look for replacements but honestly, I know my health (mental and physical) better and if I chose to replace out, it's because I felt it'd be better for my health.

Which it was.

Jet Lag wise, I felt it effect me for a lot longer after I replaced out so I don't regret replacing out.

Again, I understand it may be frustrating as a game runner and I hate causing trouble for anyone (I've even stuck out some games in the past despite wanting to replace out purely to avoid causing trouble for the game runner but with everything that's happening in our lives irl, I just have to think about myself more these days) but if I have to replace out, I will.

It may have been the last 4 games in a row but each were justified and I will not be made to feel bad about it when I did what I had to for my own mental health.

Stuart444 · Feb 17, 2020

Also for the record, I plan on not playing for a bit due to the fact that my health is pretty fucking crap just now. So you don't need to worry about Stu replacing out in the future...

Blargonaut · Feb 17, 2020

Hello, I rarely participate in these valuable focus groups as I much prefer to be in the test pilot's seat and earn from the comfort of my own damage, but

I think that Post Maximums are a bad idea; if player(s) have a problem with another player's overwhelming volume of text output, that should be "yet another factor" considered entirely in-game by the players towards keeping that loudmouth alive or not. For hosts to have to manage Maximums too seems like unnecessary bureaucracy that detracts from gameplay.
Personally I am fine with the current Post Minimum of 10 per Day. But, if it were really up to me, I would honestly remove Post Minimums too. A player should be allowed the strategic choice to say nothing for any amount of time. And if you have personal commitments to attend to outside of the game, the game should not stress you into quote "intelligent/quality" contribution by enforcing a quantity penalty upon you as if that really helps; but, you would accept that your non-presence will be taken against your in-game standing whatever entailed it (personal or strategic). Thereby I would replace Post Minimums with a Vote Minimum of 2 votes per Day instead. Votes are hard gameplay evidence of possibly Alignment-indicative intent, rather than Posts in which a player can lie/say anything. Therefore, the true Activity Minimum should follow Votes, not Posts, for a more meaningful standard of paper trail.
The penalty for offending the proposed Vote Minimum would be the same as for offending the current Post Minimum.
On pronoun mistakes; to confirm, the current system is 2 warnings (2 offenses, 1 warning per offense) then a modkill upon a 3rd offense? I think this is already ideal (but of course should be properly enforced). But, I think it would better to replace the offending player rather then kill their Role-slot. This would also solve the issue of an offending player violating the pronoun rule in secret/Mafia chats; the host can simply and more discreetly explain in-game that the offender "has asked to be replaced", so that the effect on gameplay is less harmful to other players' contributions/sense of fun than an outright modkill/flip. Thereby the offender is rightfully penalised without destroying the game.
Of course, if no replacements are available then that would be the host's more justifiable discretion towards a modkill of the Role-slot.
Phase length should definitely be reduced to 24hr Day / 24 Night upon reaching late-game. However, refer to above re: my opinion about Post Count.

I would also like to suggest the destruction of the Seasonal player-recruitment thread, in favour of a singular permanent Signups Mega-thread; however, the "Season" system itself would not be stopped, but instead on the announcement of a new Season and it's available game(s), said Mega-thread would simply be moved back-and-forth between OT Main and OT Community per signup window-opening and -closing (which mods can do, right?). I believe we would be better served by a more unified and uniform dedicated pre-game lobby.

I would also like to be the one who would create & manage this Mega-thread for us if your majority approval is secured to move forward. It would not be immediately ready for this is a promise that needs to be Kickstarted before my work would begin, yes

Blargonaut · Feb 17, 2020

ADDENDUM: Regarding the "pronoun offender 'has asked to be replaced' but in fact is actually being banned from the game-server due to their multiple offenses although them having been done in secret/Mafia chat not in the main game-thread" suggestion; once the game is over, it would of course be disclosed/publicly revealed by the game-host that the offender(s) were actually kicked for pronoun-offense and then be formally and publicly reprimanded in a written statement post-game as is deserved for their offenses, ideally.

SweetNicole · Feb 17, 2020

Something I've been mulling on the pronoun rule: is there any reason not to allow people to edit posts when they mess up pronouns? It would remove the offending content from the thread and allow people to "self-police" themselves.

Blargonaut said:
On pronoun mistakes; to confirm, the current system is 2 warnings (2 offenses, 1 warning per offense) then a modkill upon a 3rd offense?

it's 1 warning, then modkill on 2nd offense

Blargonaut · Feb 17, 2020

Fanto · Feb 17, 2020

Blargonaut said:
Personally I am fine with the current Post Minimum of 10 per Day. But, if it were really up to me, I would honestly remove Post Minimums too. A player should be allowed the strategic choice to say nothing for any amount of time. And if you have personal commitments to attend to outside of the game, the game should not stress you into quote "intelligent/quality" contribution by enforcing a quantity penalty upon you as if that really helps; but, you would accept that your non-presence will be taken against your in-game standing whatever entailed it (personal or strategic). Thereby I would replace Post Minimums with a Vote Minimum of 2 votes per Day instead. Votes are hard gameplay evidence of possibly Alignment-indicative intent, rather than Posts in which a player can lie/say anything. Therefore, the true Activity Minimum should follow Votes, not Posts, for a more meaningful standard of paper trail.

The penalty for offending the proposed Vote Minimum would be the same as for offending the current Post Minimum.

I love this idea, but I don't know how much traction it will get. I just wanted to say that I support it.

Blargonaut said:
I would also like to suggest the destruction of the Seasonal player-recruitment thread, in favour of a singular permanent Signups Mega-thread; however, the "Season" system itself would not be stopped, but instead on the announcement of a new Season and it's available game(s), said Mega-thread would simply be moved back-and-forth between OT Main and OT Community per signup window-opening and -closing (which mods can do, right?). I believe we would be better served by a more unified and uniform dedicated pre-game lobby.

I would also like to be the one who would create & manage this Mega-thread for us if your majority approval is secured to move forward. It would not be immediately ready for this is a promise that needs to be Kickstarted before my work would begin, yes

I also don't think this is a bad idea.

Sorian · Feb 17, 2020

Fran said:
No, It would have happened anyway. And this is because something we never talked about: How to deal with infractions in a secret chat. If a player commit an infraction in the scum chat and we need to replace him (or even if he commits the first in scum chat and a second in the main thread) every player will be aware that they are part of a secret chat when they can't find one of the warnings in the thread. So either we need to modkill that player or we need to not count the infractions commited in a secret chat.

I will talk about more things later, I want to say something about replacements but I need to do some work now.

I stopped reading at this post so maybe someone said this already but this issue is already solved by other communities and we've talked about this before. If the gamerunner needs to replace someone based on a secret chat, they just simply say that so and so has requested a replacement in the same way you would normally. The flip side to this coin is that it needs to be a rule that the players can never under any circumstances theorize on why someone subbed out and people subbing out should never be talking about why they are subbing out in thread, save your apologies and excuses for after.

Sorian · Feb 17, 2020

I'm also strongly against just modkilling a slot because there is no replacement, that can demolish a game in some cases.

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
Something I've been mulling on the pronoun rule: is there any reason not to allow people to edit posts when they mess up pronouns? It would remove the offending content from the thread and allow people to "self-police" themselves.

it's 1 warning, then modkill on 2nd offense

It's 1 warning, then replace on the second.

CaptainNuevo · Feb 17, 2020

SweetNicole said:
Something I've been mulling on the pronoun rule: is there any reason not to allow people to edit posts when they mess up pronouns? It would remove the offending content from the thread and allow people to "self-police" themselves.

it's 1 warning, then modkill on 2nd offense

While I agree in sentiment on the first part (well, to an extent, since it still doesn't actually solve the problem of people misusing them), there are logistical problems inherent with it. Like how would you know the pronoun was the only actual change and not a more subtle "not" being added/removed. No edits as a rule exists to maintain the integrity of the posts and make sure what's been said is kept permanent.

Sorian · Feb 17, 2020

Stuart444 said:
Yup.

Nah, I replace out when I have to. I know it's frustrating as a game runner to look for replacements but honestly, I know my health (mental and physical) better and if I chose to replace out, it's because I felt it'd be better for my health.

Which it was.

Jet Lag wise, I felt it effect me for a lot longer after I replaced out so I don't regret replacing out.

Again, I understand it may be frustrating as a game runner and I hate causing trouble for anyone (I've even stuck out some games in the past despite wanting to replace out purely to avoid causing trouble for the game runner but with everything that's happening in our lives irl, I just have to think about myself more these days) but if I have to replace out, I will.

It may have been the last 4 games in a row but each were justified and I will not be made to feel bad about it when I did what I had to for my own mental health.

I don't think the point is for anyone to make you feel bad for replacing. The point is to take a more realistic measure of your time and health before signing up in the first place.

SweetNicole said:
Something I've been mulling on the pronoun rule: is there any reason not to allow people to edit posts when they mess up pronouns? It would remove the offending content from the thread and allow people to "self-police" themselves.

it's 1 warning, then modkill on 2nd offense

How would you know they didn't edit anything else? That just opens the door to a whole other issue.

And to the bottom of this post and to Blarg, it is 1 warning then a replacement on second offense. Zeke was modkilled due to multiple factors including how late in the game it was, the lack of replacements available, and the special circumstances of how his warnings went.

Stuart444 · Feb 17, 2020

Sorian said:
I don't think the point is for anyone to make you feel bad for replacing. The point is to take a more realistic measure of your time and health before signing up in the first place.

Things happen. When I sign up, I do it believing that I'll be okay.

But at the very least, the last two games I replaced due to unexpected circumstances. (for example, I've never suffered Jet Lag as badly as I did this time. I had a realistic expectation that I would be okay based on the last two times I went on holiday and Jet Lag was nearly non-existent)

However, I know how things are with me now mentally and physically which is why I'm not signing up for any games for a bit.

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

Sorian said:
I stopped reading at this post so maybe someone said this already but this issue is already solved by other communities and we've talked about this before. If the gamerunner needs to replace someone based on a secret chat, they just simply say that so and so has requested a replacement in the same way you would normally. The flip side to this coin is that it needs to be a rule that the players can never under any circumstances theorize on why someone subbed out and people subbing out should never be talking about why they are subbing out in thread, save your apologies and excuses for after.

Even if you add it as a rule people will still theorize about why someone subbed out and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. I was once lynched because I was browsing a game and not posting and someone brought that up in the thread, even when there was a rule against that.

And not all circunstances are equal. Just look at Conspiracy, would someone believe that Zeke asked for a replacement when he was top poster during the day? And if the first offence was in scum chat and the second was in the main thread. A player who just received a warning is suddenly replacing wouldn't be suspicious?

Fran · Feb 17, 2020

Blargonaut said:
Personally I am fine with the current Post Minimum of 10 per Day. But, if it were really up to me, I would honestly remove Post Minimums too. A player should be allowed the strategic choice to say nothing for any amount of time. And if you have personal commitments to attend to outside of the game, the game should not stress you into quote "intelligent/quality" contribution by enforcing a quantity penalty upon you as if that really helps; but, you would accept that your non-presence will be taken against your in-game standing whatever entailed it (personal or strategic). Thereby I would replace Post Minimums with a Vote Minimum of 2 votes per Day instead. Votes are hard gameplay evidence of possibly Alignment-indicative intent, rather than Posts in which a player can lie/say anything. Therefore, the true Activity Minimum should follow Votes, not Posts, for a more meaningful standard of paper trail.

The penalty for offending the proposed Vote Minimum would be the same as for offending the current Post Minimum.

I like this.

Deleted member 19365 · Feb 17, 2020

Blargonaut said:
I would also like to be the one who would create & manage this Mega-thread for us if your majority approval is secured to move forward. It would not be immediately ready for this is a promise that needs to be Kickstarted before my work would begin, yes

Still waiting for Diablo Mafia here ;)

EzekelRAGE · Feb 17, 2020

Not a fan of vote minimums.

Could I just vote immediately unvote and vote the same person?

TheChuggernaut · Feb 17, 2020

Only cowards vote more than once

Natiko · Feb 17, 2020

EzekelRAGE said:
I think it happened because the sentiment was I should've been replaced earlier anyway. At this point I'm just arguing cuz I'm salty. If all that other drama behind the scenes didn't happen, doubt I would've been modkilled in that situation.

I honestly don't know what happened this game. I've played with ael b4 and don't remember me messing up their pronouns like this, if at all.

Zeke, buddy, you can't point out that you should have been replaced earlier in the game for violation two and then also argue you shouldn't have been replaced for the violation three lol

Blargonaut said:
Hello, I rarely participate in these valuable focus groups as I much prefer to be in the test pilot's seat and earn from the comfort of my own damage, but

I think that Post Maximums are a bad idea; if player(s) have a problem with another player's overwhelming volume of text output, that should be "yet another factor" considered entirely in-game by the players towards keeping that loudmouth alive or not. For hosts to have to manage Maximums too seems like unnecessary bureaucracy that detracts from gameplay.

Personally I am fine with the current Post Minimum of 10 per Day. But, if it were really up to me, I would honestly remove Post Minimums too. A player should be allowed the strategic choice to say nothing for any amount of time. And if you have personal commitments to attend to outside of the game, the game should not stress you into quote "intelligent/quality" contribution by enforcing a quantity penalty upon you as if that really helps; but, you would accept that your non-presence will be taken against your in-game standing whatever entailed it (personal or strategic). Thereby I would replace Post Minimums with a Vote Minimum of 2 votes per Day instead. Votes are hard gameplay evidence of possibly Alignment-indicative intent, rather than Posts in which a player can lie/say anything. Therefore, the true Activity Minimum should follow Votes, not Posts, for a more meaningful standard of paper trail.

The penalty for offending the proposed Vote Minimum would be the same as for offending the current Post Minimum.

On pronoun mistakes; to confirm, the current system is 2 warnings (2 offenses, 1 warning per offense) then a modkill upon a 3rd offense? I think this is already ideal (but of course should be properly enforced). But, I think it would better to replace the offending player rather then kill their Role-slot. This would also solve the issue of an offending player violating the pronoun rule in secret/Mafia chats; the host can simply and more discreetly explain in-game that the offender "has asked to be replaced", so that the effect on gameplay is less harmful to other players' contributions/sense of fun than an outright modkill/flip. Thereby the offender is rightfully penalised without destroying the game.

Of course, if no replacements are available then that would be the host's more justifiable discretion towards a modkill of the Role-slot.

Phase length should definitely be reduced to 24hr Day / 24 Night upon reaching late-game. However, refer to above re: my opinion about Post Count.

I would also like to suggest the destruction of the Seasonal player-recruitment thread, in favour of a singular permanent Signups Mega-thread; however, the "Season" system itself would not be stopped, but instead on the announcement of a new Season and it's available game(s), said Mega-thread would simply be moved back-and-forth between OT Main and OT Community per signup window-opening and -closing (which mods can do, right?). I believe we would be better served by a more unified and uniform dedicated pre-game lobby.

I would also like to be the one who would create & manage this Mega-thread for us if your majority approval is secured to move forward. It would not be immediately ready for this is a promise that needs to be Kickstarted before my work would begin, yes

I kind of love the idea of vote minimums, though perhaps it should be a mix (5 posts and 1 vote) or something.

Stuart444 said:
Things happen. When I sign up, I do it believing that I'll be okay.

But at the very least, the last two games I replaced due to unexpected circumstances. (for example, I've never suffered Jet Lag as badly as I did this time. I had a realistic expectation that I would be okay based on the last two times I went on holiday and Jet Lag was nearly non-existent)

However, I know how things are with me now mentally and physically which is why I'm not signing up for any games for a bit.

I'm sorry you've been going through such a rough patch, but I'm glad you're going to take the time away you need while you recover. Looking forward to playing with you again down the road.

Fran said:
Even if you add it as a rule people will still theorize about why someone subbed out and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. I was once lynched because I was browsing a game and not posting and someone brought that up in the thread, even when there was a rule against that.

And not all circunstances are equal. Just look at Conspiracy, would someone believe that Zeke asked for a replacement when he was top poster during the day? And if the first offence was in scum chat and the second was in the main thread. A player who just received a warning is suddenly replacing wouldn't be suspicious?

If someone is going to purposefully go against the rules then they'll be dealt with as needed, we can only control so much (for instance people could still be checking activity in other threads and never mentioning it). That said, your last scenario is a more difficult one to tackle and could require a modkill I suppose. Hopefully though players will realize there are consequences and will do a better job at not repeating this issue.

Gorlak said:
Still waiting for Diablo Mafia here ;)

Accurate statement.

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