Magic: The Gathering |OT| Core Set 2020 - Red Head Wins

Steve Winwood

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,261
Maaaaaaybe the London Mulligan rule is also part of the problem?
I think it's been pretty bad in Vintage and Modern. When most decks are focused on finding some linear combination of pieces, digging the extra card(s) on mulls makes them problematically consistent imo.

I think they should consider keeping it for Standard and Limited and ditching it for the Eternal formats. It would be very slightly awkward, but it's not that much more complex than tracking different banlists.
 
Sep 14, 2018
670
Stirrings needs to go for sure but new Karn and London mulligan gave it yet another boost in power. I looked over some of the lists and saw almost no old karn or ugin so Im guessing they settled on wishing a lattice or something.

Just thinking about what should get banned makes me feel like the whole format needs to be flushed down the toilet. I agree with starting over with a new ban list but I doubt they'd do that.

They are more likely to wait until everyone hates the format then blame something other than their balancing and make the wrong choices in a cascade of bad decisions. This sounds very WotC to me.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,737
716
Aidan is right, but I don't see them taking the mulligan back for a while if at all. It's much much MUCH better for Standard.

And your solution is to ban Cryptic Command? lol
Yeah man, and I stand by it. In a vacuum? No, I wouldn't do that. But it's one piece in a 7 part plan. My suggestions were all planned in a way to hopefully slow the format down. On top of that, you slot Archmage's Charm in it's place and you have a card that can be played a FULL TURN EARLIER, potentially speeding up the relevance of control and allowing them to establish control sooner.
 

aidan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
997
The things that are problems now were already problems before that (aside from Hogaak of course). The London Mulligan makes for a better player experience, so I'd rather preserve that over the cards that become problems.
I have fun playing with the London Mulligan, especially for Standard, but it's incredibly imbalanced at the competitive level for legacy formats. It's always going to majorly benefit combo-based decks over fair decks, and you can't just ban that problem away.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,538
Aidan is right, but I don't see them taking the mulligan back for a while if at all. It's much much MUCH better for Standard.


Yeah man, and I stand by it. In a vacuum? No, I wouldn't do that. But it's one piece in a 7 part plan. My suggestions were all planned in a way to hopefully slow the format down. On top of that, you slot Archmage's Charm in it's place and you have a card that can be played a FULL TURN EARLIER, potentially speeding up the relevance of control and allowing them to establish control sooner.
Archmage's Charm is in no way comparable to Cryptic Command. Also, that logic is flawed. If people wanted to play Archmage's Charm because it's a turn faster, people would have already done so with or without Cryptic in the format.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,737
716
Archmage's Charm is in no way comparable to Cryptic Command. Also, that logic is flawed. If people wanted to play Archmage's Charm because it's a turn faster, people would have already done so with or without Cryptic in the format.
I disagree that they're not comparable. I understand that Cryptic is the better card. That's not something I'm arguing against, and I think have made my opinion known that I feel like it's a bit too good and as such is too ubiquitous. This is the reason people won't play Charm instead of it, why pick the worse card, even if it's a tad faster? But if we're slowing the format down a bit, I think also forcing Control to speed up is only good for it. Sometimes you have to tear something down to build something better in its spot.

That said, if this is the biggest problem you have with my list of 7 changes, I feel OK with it. It's the one I feel least strong about haha
 

GoutPatrol

Member
Oct 30, 2017
517
Eldrazi Tron is a thing and doesn't need Stirrings though, so even if the card is busted it's not mandatory to make a tron lands build feasible, and aside for those there's not any other card in that deck that can be considered busted except Chalice. Probably ban also Expedition Map so it's not as easy to assemble tron in turn 3? Otherwise as long as tron lands are legal and easy/cheap to tutor along with 6+ mana colorless threats there's always going to be some way to make the combination busted.
I saw an Eldrazi Tron list that was not playing Tron, just Temples and a bunch of ultility lands (Mutavault, Cavern, Blast Zone, Ghost Quarter, etc) and it looked very cool. I would be down for the colorless decks to turn into that.

Funnily enough, I think if you really want to neuter Tron decks, ban Balista. Gives those decks an early game play that seems like it always 2-for-1s and is a late game Mana sink and wincon all in one, giving these colorless decks waaaay more reach than they ever had before. Let them win with Wurmcoils honestly.
 

Beje

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,361
I saw an Eldrazi Tron list that was not playing Tron, just Temples and a bunch of ultility lands (Mutavault, Cavern, Blast Zone, Ghost Quarter, etc) and it looked very cool. I would be down for the colorless decks to turn into that.

Funnily enough, I think if you really want to neuter Tron decks, ban Balista. Gives those decks an early game play that seems like it always 2-for-1s and is a late game Mana sink and wincon all in one, giving these colorless decks waaaay more reach than they ever had before. Let them win with Wurmcoils honestly.
A ban on Ballista would also screw up with Hardened Scales and some Affinity builds, along with vizier infinite mana combo. Anyway, we're back full circle: either ban a lot of busted cards at once or the player base will suffer a long game of "what's the next busted deck getting a piece banned" dragged on for months which is not exactly a good signal of a healthy format.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,582
A ban on Ballista would also screw up with Hardened Scales and some Affinity builds, along with vizier infinite mana combo. Anyway, we're back full circle: either ban a lot of busted cards at once or the player base will suffer a long game of "what's the next busted deck getting a piece banned" dragged on for months which is not exactly a good signal of a healthy format.
They could always just unban twin and see if it actually does police the meta. Can’t be any worse than it is now. Worse comes to worst, van Deceiver Exarch so people can actually kill the combo with Bolt.

I don’t like the idea though of “ban everything that’s too strong, let all the strong things get unbanned”. If you ban Faithless Looting and Hogaak in the same breath as unbanning Splinter Twin and Stoneforge Mystic, it comes across less like you’re looking for balance and more like you’re just trying to tailor the meta into decks that feature Splinter Twin and Stoneforge Mystic. The idea of ban list changes shouldn’t be to just replace the top decks.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
2,737
716
They could always just unban twin and see if it actually does police the meta. Can’t be any worse than it is now. Worse comes to worst, van Deceiver Exarch so people can actually kill the combo with Bolt.

I don’t like the idea though of “ban everything that’s too strong, let all the strong things get unbanned”. If you ban Faithless Looting and Hogaak in the same breath as unbanning Splinter Twin and Stoneforge Mystic, it comes across less like you’re looking for balance and more like you’re just trying to tailor the meta into decks that feature Splinter Twin and Stoneforge Mystic. The idea of ban list changes shouldn’t be to just replace the top decks.
1. Stoneforge is not that powerful given what we have today, even with a Hogaak banning

2. No one is advocating for unbanning all the strong banned stuff, ban all the strong stuff. If you look at the banned list (which I did while cultivating my suggestions), Stoneforge really, truly is the bottom of the barrel in power compared to what's on there, and Splinter Twin is a card that will simply create yet-another powerful deck to contend with, except this one doesn't go off on turn 2. It's crazy to say, but a Splinter Twin deck in today's current meta probably wouldn't be good enough to win a tournament.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,538
Sure, but Hogaak can also play the long attrition game. You don't always dredge the right cards to fuel your creatures. Twin also has creatures and Cryptic Command that can tap/bounce Hogaak, so if it goes to turn 4, and the chances are reasonable, Twin can win out of nowhere since Hogaak can't really interact most of the time.
 
Commander 2019 GenCon Day 1 previews
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,429
Commander 2019 preview cards









These look interesting.
I wonder if we'll see black enchantment destruction for the first time in these. It'd be a huge help for the black-red madness deck.
 

IceMarker

Member
Oct 26, 2017
552
United States
Those new 2019 Commanders look neat, especially the Jeskai and Naya ones. I haven't played or even built a Commander deck yet, so I'm looking forward to giving the pre-con a shot before building my own. Gotta make use of my rotating cards somehow.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,538
So populate, madness, flashback and morph commander.

And of course Sultai gets the best commander.
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,429
Gerrard coming, but with Terese Nielsen art unfortunately. I guuueeesss this could still be from before her controversies picked up steam.

EDIT: Confirmed below to be Zack Stella, not Nielsen. As such, going to post the art.

 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,429
She still believed what she believed when she painted it no?
It's more that months ago, Nielsen posted a seemingly unprompted message about how she won't back down or something, and many assumed that was due to Wizards dropping her. She's shown up since in Modern Horizons and now this, which on the surface would contradict that assumption, but they also could have been commissioned and completed before Wizards could have felt the need to make a move.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
2,737
716
It's more that months ago, Nielsen posted a seemingly unprompted message about she won't back down or something, and many assumed that was due to Wizards dropping her. She's shown up since in Modern Horizons and now this, which on the surface would contradict that assumption, but they also could have been commissioned and completed before Wizards could have felt the need to make a move.
I misunderstood what you were saying. I understand now!
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,582
Anje is really fucking cool. Her ability is the kind that's useful even when you don't have any stuff with madness to discard, but goes absolutely nuts when you do. She gets my rakdos seal of approval.
 

Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
625
The madness and morph themed commanders are hurt by the fact that they won't get much future support. Graveyard casting seems to happen somewhat frequently at least.

The brawl bant commander looks the strongest. I guess that's how WOTC plans to push brawl.
 

GoutPatrol

Member
Oct 30, 2017
517
A ban on Ballista would also screw up with Hardened Scales and some Affinity builds, along with vizier infinite mana combo. Anyway, we're back full circle: either ban a lot of busted cards at once or the player base will suffer a long game of "what's the next busted deck getting a piece banned" dragged on for months which is not exactly a good signal of a healthy format.
That just gives me another reason to ban it. Being able to sac your whole board to turn it into direct damage from Ravager and Balista is like turning Affinity into Infect. You're dealing double damage.
 

dadjumper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,397
Japan
Definitely picking up the Madness deck, might also get Morph while I'm at it... pretty excited actually, these seem fun
 
C19 - Gerrard, Weatherlight Hero
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,429


Sweeper / combo based commander instead of combat focused. And of course, in the story, Gerrard sacrifices himself to save his friends and the Legacy.

EDIT: Since a lot of people are confused about this, even when you exile him, he just goes to the command zone. So you can cast him over and over.
 
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