Magic: The Gathering |OT| Core Set 2020 - Red Head Wins

bardo

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,578
Question: creatures with abilities on their card stating 2/B mana, “do this”— are those abilities like instants or do they have to be played during main phases?
 
Sep 14, 2018
670
I mean, I don't pay too much attention to Modern and older formats, but wasn't this sort of expected?
The last tournament that mythic thing had only 2 hogaaks in top 8, or 1 I don't remember, but it was very prevalent and succesful against a field that was supposedly ready for it. The green force blowing up leylines didn't help matters.

And when they ban him mere 2 months after being printed maybe people can stop pretending play design are balance geniuses, they're pretty bleh at their jobs.
 

Starsunder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
374
The last tournament that mythic thing had only 2 hogaaks in top 8, or 1 I don't remember, but it was very prevalent and succesful against a field that was supposedly ready for it. The green force blowing up leylines didn't help matters.

And when they ban him mere 2 months after being printed maybe people can stop pretending play design are balance geniuses, they're pretty bleh at their jobs.
Nah, they’re not. And that’s a pretty shit way of looking at people who I’m sure work hard af trying to make things fun for the game. Ok, so hogaak is busted. It happens, ban it, move on. For the most part, Modern Horizons has been great, and so has standard for the last year or so.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,737
716
The only thing that’s shit about the situation is that Hogaak is still running around when the card is clearly a problem. I don’t mind them trying to push the boundaries once in a while, but I do mind them not taking care of business when things have clearly gone awry. That’s not play/design’s fault imo
 

Steve Winwood

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,261
Pretty bad to not emergency-ban given that the only reason we're in this situation was them whiffing on the last scheduled B&R. Feel for anyone playing Modern tournaments in the meantime.

The only thing that’s shit about the situation is that Hogaak is still running around when the card is clearly a problem. I don’t mind them trying to push the boundaries once in a while, but I do mind them not taking care of business when things have clearly gone awry. That’s not play/design’s fault imo
Yeah, I don't blame play design: there seems to be a clear mandate to push boundaries on power level. The issue is that, if that's your policy, you need to be pretty aggressive with bannings or risk ruining formats for long periods of time. "Print Hogaaks" + "be cautious with bans and restrictions" + "don't ban new cards" is the real problem combo.
 

Metallix87

Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,455
Pretty bad to not emergency-ban given that the only reason we're in this situation was them whiffing on the last scheduled B&R. Feel for anyone playing Modern tournaments in the meantime.

Yeah, I don't blame play design: there seems to be a clear mandate to push boundaries on power level. The issue is that, if that's your policy, you need to be pretty aggressive with bannings or risk ruining formats for long periods of time. "Print Hogaaks" + "be cautious with bans and restrictions" + "don't ban new cards" is the real problem combo.
TBH, a lot of people assumed banning Bridge would be enough, so it's not like the whiff was something everyone saw coming. There was a brief window where everyone thought the Hogaak deck was dead and buried, or at least way worse, without Bridge.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,582
The last tournament that mythic thing had only 2 hogaaks in top 8, or 1 I don't remember, but it was very prevalent and succesful against a field that was supposedly ready for it. The green force blowing up leylines didn't help matters.

And when they ban him mere 2 months after being printed maybe people can stop pretending play design are balance geniuses, they're pretty bleh at their jobs.
Nah. Play Design’s been fantastic for standard and limited.

I don’t blame WotC for creating Hogaak. It’s an incredibly cool and splashy design that pushes new boundaries, and I would have loved to see it actually work in Modern. But it didn’t, and WotC really messed up by not banning Hogaak alongside Bridge From Below in the last B&R announcement.

Pretty bad to not emergency-ban given that the only reason we're in this situation was them whiffing on the last scheduled B&R. Feel for anyone playing Modern tournaments in the meantime.
The thing is, emergency bans suck for people actually attending tournaments. Emergency banning Hogaak is basically telling people to come up with a new deck on the fly.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,317
They have only emergency banned on two occasions: once for Memory Jar (It's not an understatement to say that Urza's Saga could have killed MTG, and this would have been just another headache), and once for Saheli Twin, when they said "we don't have to do this", then got so much blowback and actual data from MTGO that they changed their mind.

I'm fine with them missing stuff for non-limited/standard, as long as they are going a great job with those formats. Hoggak wasn't the obvious insane card at spoiler season that it is seen as now (otherwise it would have preordered for a ton of money), but that said, if you are intentionally designing cards for powerful formats, they either need to be pushed to the point where they might be broken, or they won't see play.
 
Sep 14, 2018
670
Nah, they’re not. And that’s a pretty shit way of looking at people who I’m sure work hard af trying to make things fun for the game. Ok, so hogaak is busted. It happens, ban it, move on. For the most part, Modern Horizons has been great, and so has standard for the last year or so.
It's not just Hogaak, to be fair the misses are more notable than the hits but they've made plenty of dubious design decisions in their short time as a team.

What I don't understand is why some players insist on propping them up as these ingenious design masters, I've had people tell me they "saved" magic lmao.

Just to be clear, it's fine that they make mistakes but maybe have a little perspective. They're about as good/bad as whoever was designing before they were formed, DOM was the outlier not a preview of things to come.
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,211
The last tournament that mythic thing had only 2 hogaaks in top 8, or 1 I don't remember, but it was very prevalent and succesful against a field that was supposedly ready for it. The green force blowing up leylines didn't help matters.

And when they ban him mere 2 months after being printed maybe people can stop pretending play design are balance geniuses, they're pretty bleh at their jobs.
I don't play Modern, but from what I recall reading, Hogaak dominated the Mythic Championship in the Modern portion... it's just that its pilots did poorly in limited on the aggregate, and thus the deck didn't produce as many top finishes as you'd expect.
 

Steve Winwood

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,261
I'm fine with them missing stuff for non-limited/standard, as long as they are going a great job with those formats. Hoggak wasn't the obvious insane card at spoiler season that it is seen as now (otherwise it would have preordered for a ton of money), but that said, if you are intentionally designing cards for powerful formats, they either need to be pushed to the point where they might be broken, or they won't see play.
I think Karn, Narset, W6, and Hogaak have all been meaningful mistakes. I don't think their current philosophy of design for eternal formats is working; a lot of focus seems to be on power level and little focus on whether things encourage positive play patterns. I see few actual eternal players clamoring for cards to be pushed as aggressively as these.

Agree that this likely isn't the fault of the play design team per se and that the play design team seems to have been a positive force (though hard to tell all these things from the outside).
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,485
It's not just Hogaak, to be fair the misses are more notable than the hits but they've made plenty of dubious design decisions in their short time as a team.

What I don't understand is why some players insist on propping them up as these ingenious design masters, I've had people tell me they "saved" magic lmao.

Just to be clear, it's fine that they make mistakes but maybe have a little perspective. They're about as good/bad as whoever was designing before they were formed, DOM was the outlier not a preview of things to come.
Limited and Standard have been excellent. I’d imagine that’s where they focus their time. Modern is impossible to balance realistically.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,582
It's not just Hogaak, to be fair the misses are more notable than the hits but they've made plenty of dubious design decisions in their short time as a team.

What I don't understand is why some players insist on propping them up as these ingenious design masters, I've had people tell me they "saved" magic lmao.

Just to be clear, it's fine that they make mistakes but maybe have a little perspective. They're about as good/bad as whoever was designing before they were formed, DOM was the outlier not a preview of things to come.
I think you're the one who lacks perspective here. We currently have a standard environment where aggro, midrange, control, and honest-to-goodness combo are all powerful, diverse, and viable. Do you know how refreshing that is? Especially after the complete garbage fire that was Kaladesh standard? The same standard environment that saw nine cards banned, including a fucking basic land tutor?

Like even if you don't think it's near as great as Kamigawa/Ravnica or Innistrad/Return to Ravnica or whatever your favorite period in standard history is, it's still genuinely good, and that's a place standard hasn't been in for a long time.
 
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Feb 16, 2018
903
this standard is quite awful. lots of viable decks doesn't really mean anything when most of them can't even disrupt the opposing gameplan, so your games are determined by how well you draw and who goes first rather than any sort of decision-making

play design is basically operating under the flawed paradigm of only policing consistency instead of policing power. the only real difference is that they refuse to ban anything, whereas the previous arbiters weren't as arrogant

broken stuff is considered okay because "it's only going to be broken for 9 months" (wilderness reclamation / nexus of fate) or "it's only going to be broken for 3 months" (sorin, scapeshift). this doesn't actually balance anything in the modern netdecking era, but it is an effective way to make sure people's decks become useless more rapidly

sure, we're a lot less likely to get 2-card infinite combos because someone is looking for them now. but the overall play patterns aren't really better than they were in the kaladesh/amonkhet era. hour of devestation era monored and energy were way more fair and beatable and interactive than anything being played today. the past year of play design's nonsensical balance decisions has made me miss when slow late-game card advantage engines (eg. azcanta / teferi 5 / torrential gearhulk) were the most broken things you could do

the side-effect of play design existing is that it might lead to more strong cards without greatly increasing the risk of creating ban-worthy cards, but the process doesn't have enough real checks. they've set up this scenario where they're responsible for both balancing the cards and also judging whether the cards are balanced. so their natural reaction will be to not ban anything because they're trying to use lack of bans as evidence that they're doing a good job.

nobody would have even cared if they added some made-for-multiplayer uncommon (wilderness reclamation) to the standard banlist, but instead we get 9 months of having to win by turn 5 and punishing decks that try to interact with creatures or planeswalkers. and then their "solution" to that (presumably teferi 3) was making the only remaining piece of interaction (counterspells) unplayable 🙄
 
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bardo

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,578
Does Magic Arena have different rules than paper? I was reading about blocking (in paper Magic) and it states that if an attacking creature is blocked, but then the blocking creature is destroyed with an instant, the attacker is still blocked and there is no damage to the opposing player. However, I have done the exact opposite a few times in Arena...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,463
The new Twiddlestorm deck people are playing in Modern really tickles me. I used to play a version of this deck five fucking years ago before the hexproof lotus land, but it played Utopia Sprawls and such to go off. It just immediately lost to Ghost Quarter which is why I stopped playing it. It's amazing how many weird decks are out there in Modern hiding just out of reach waiting for just one card to come out and make them viable.
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
299
this standard is quite awful. lots of viable decks doesn't really mean anything when most of them can't even disrupt the opposing gameplan, so your games are determined by how well you draw and who goes first rather than any sort of decision-making
It's not that bad, I think you can attribute most of the problems to us now being in a 8 set standard which always gets a bit messy. But the format is still much better than it was a couple of years ago.

I will say though, Wizards completely dropping the ball with organised play at all levels has meant it's harder to know what the best deck is because people are rarely trying to find it (outside of the MPL where there is an additional weird metagame thing going on that requires a different approach). This means diversity can be a bit false.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,821
It's not that bad, I think you can attribute most of the problems to us now being in a 8 set standard which always gets a bit messy. But the format is still much better than it was a couple of years ago.

I will say though, Wizards completely dropping the ball with organised play at all levels has meant it's harder to know what the best deck is because people are rarely trying to find it (outside of the MPL where there is an additional weird metagame thing going on that requires a different approach). This means diversity can be a bit false.
The format has been solved for several weeks now and we're in a cyclical meta.

With Play Design should be much better than it is. They didn't fail on the balance so much since there's various top tier decks as opposed to singular in recent 8 set standards but the play patterns are arguably worse in exchange.
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
299
The format has been solved for several weeks now and we're in a cyclical meta.

With Play Design should be much better than it is. They didn't fail on the balance so much since there's various top tier decks as opposed to singular in recent 8 set standards but the play patterns are arguably worse in exchange.
Even if the play patterns are worse, it's not a disaster of a format.

On cyclical metas and the MPL format being weird - there are no vampires in this weeks games because everyone tried to meta each other.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
6,490
Standard's really convenient for me on Arena right now because I don't really have to go any further than finding out who plays first to resolve the game. I just wish someone would tell the Control players about that situation so they'd stop wasting everyone else's time, we've got grinding to do here, fellas.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
8,582
the side-effect of play design existing is that it might lead to more strong cards without greatly increasing the risk of creating ban-worthy cards, but the process doesn't have enough real checks. they've set up this scenario where they're responsible for both balancing the cards and also judging whether the cards are balanced. so their natural reaction will be to not ban anything because they're trying to use lack of bans as evidence that they're doing a good job.

nobody would have even cared if they added some made-for-multiplayer uncommon (wilderness reclamation) to the standard banlist, but instead we get 9 months of having to win by turn 5 and punishing decks that try to interact with creatures or planeswalkers. and then their "solution" to that (presumably teferi 3) was making the only remaining piece of interaction (counterspells) unplayable 🙄
Apparently the new criteria for banning should be “Is part of a moderately successful deck I don’t like”.
 
Feb 16, 2018
903
Apparently the new criteria for banning should be “Is part of a moderately successful deck I don’t like”.
this might be funny if nexus of fate wasn't actually a top deck and if it didn't get banned from places (the entire best-of-1 mode, some of the other tournaments)

i think ixalan through ravnica allegiance standard (without wilderness or nexus) could have been an interesting one. i can't say for certain what it would have looked like, but maybe some unplayable decks (i.e. the ones that always lost to nexus of fate) could have steered the format towards a better place
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
299

Wizards have to do something about organised play, like, yesterday. They've already made GPs close to pointless for top level competitive play so no pros turn up, now people are questioning the point of PTs.
 

Trickster

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,419
Can anyone here explain how cards that don't really looks like they've been played out of a sleeve, can still have pretty bad surfaces? I try to only buy singles that are listed as near mint, and some times I'll get cards that at first glance look brand new, but then when I look at them at an angle under some light, their surface will look pretty worn.

Is that just natural wear and tear from a lot of play/shuffling while sleeved? Or is it because they've been stored in bad conditions?
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,821
At what point do the payout and costs intersect on the graph? It probably doesn’t make much monetary sense if you don’t place high enough
Well a trip to the US costs 1k alone in flights so top 64 of a PT which needed 30 match points in the latest MC/PT and good breakers against a bunch of other 30 match point players. That's a 10-6 record that doesn't even qualify you for the next MC/PT I think either
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,387
Oman
The other day I watched a streamer use an interesting red and black deck. It had the Chandra planeswalker that creates the 2 elementals and utilized Priest of Forgotten Gods. This'd make for a really slick combo if the player manages to get the right cards at the start XP
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,317
My quick takeaways from this (might be wrong there is a LOT here)
Paper side (with a very small MTGO part) and a Arena Side

Paper:
There are 3 PTs per season- one in America, Europe and Asia. You can only play in 1 per season, but if you qualifiy, you can choose which one to go to (ie, playing in America if you are in Europe). There will be 3 "seasons" in the year, so a total of 9 PTs. They expect that there will be 3600 players between all 9 events.

You qualify for these like you have PTs in the past- Top8 or 39 points at a GP, MTGO PTQs, Hall of Fame, PTQs, doing well at the previous seasons PT, etc.

Each season, the 3 tournaments will feed a "PT Final", a 120 player event. To get in, you need to Win a GP, be in the MPL, or be a "top finisher" from that seasons PT or the last PT Final

SCG and other SCG-like circuits will award PT slots

Arena:
There are 3 Mythic Invitationals per year. They are small tournaments.
They will consist of MPL players, Rival League players (more later), MQ tournaments, and special invites (ie, your Amaz's of the world)

MPL and Rivals League
MPL is now a 24 player league, where the top 16 remain the bottom 4 get relegated, and the 5-8th spots are "defended" in a gauntlet
Rivals League consists of the top 12 non-MPL Arena players, top 12 non-MPL, the relegated MPL players, the bottom players in the Gauntlet, and 6 discretionary slots

The Arena stuff is still very confusing, but the takeaway is that the MPL will have relegation down to a Rivals League (and you can presumably fall out of the rivals league the following year), and you can get into the rivals league by playing Paper OR Arena