Magic: the Gathering |OT| Theros: Beyond Death - Zombie Land Saga

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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

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Oct 25, 2017
6,701
My opponent's turn 1: "Forest, Elvish Mystic."

My turn 1: "Plains, Dauntless Bodyguard."

My opponent's turn 2: "Forest, Burning Tree Emissary, Steel Leaf Champion."
Wait, how did that work? GG to cast Burning-Tree Emissary -> Burning Tree Emissary produces RG, add G -> You have R and GG -> Cast a GGG creature?

EDIT: Plus, Surrak only has haste if you have 8 total power among creatures. With Steal Leaf Champion exiled, attacking for 7 shouldn't be possible.
 

Clay

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,161
Wait, how did that work? GG to cast Burning-Tree Emissary -> Burning Tree Emissary produces RG, add G -> You have R and GG -> Cast a GGG creature?

EDIT: Plus, Surrak only has haste if you have 8 total power among creatures. With Steal Leaf Champion exiled, attacking for 7 shouldn't be possible.
You're underestimating just how silly green is in Pioneer.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,712
Wait, how did that work? GG to cast Burning-Tree Emissary -> Burning Tree Emissary produces RG, add G -> You have R and GG -> Cast a GGG creature?

EDIT: Plus, Surrak only has haste if you have 8 total power among creatures. With Steal Leaf Champion exiled, attacking for 7 shouldn't be possible.
Surrak + Elf + Emissary = 8 power. Though if Emissary was played on turn 4 it wouldn't swing. So I'm probably remembering that part wrong.

In other Pioneer silliness, Underworld Breach is a thing.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005
Or Thrasios with infinite mana, which is comically easy to set up since you can splash any colour(s) thanks to Partner. It cements Partner as the dumbest EDH mechanic to ever exist.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,293
Simic isn't the best in EDH since removal is comically bad outside of beast within.

Simic + at least 1 other colour is when it gets silly.

Thrasios is the biggest offender of that and partner is indeed the dumbest EDH mechanic to ever exist.
Played against a tuned Tatyova deck yet?
I'm at the point where I am forcing ramp spells.
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector
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Oct 25, 2017
3,209


Oh my god this whole game was just us being assholes stealing each other's creatures lmao
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005
I think those decks got an even more reliable win con now that they've printed Thassa's Oracle.

Even more reasons to play Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast.
 
Nov 2, 2017
429
To the absolute surprise of no one, the U/G deck is busted.

Play spells that interact, people. Someone has to be the fun police to stop those kind of decks from going out of control. Josh literally played a t2 Phantasmal Image which stayed in play for several turns, gave him tens of mana, until it got bounced back to his hand and he gets to replay it again. WHY??

Also, red decks, play Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast in your decks. Cyclonic Rift is a dumb card and any card that stops it from resolving is a win for everyone else at the table. It also nukes Rhystic Study if so desired. For one mana.

These are Firemind's hot tips of the year. Heed it and many U/G commanders shall fear you.
Yeah, I REB and PB in all my red decks without access to blue. Though on the odd occasion I'm in a group of friends and there's zero blue, they are super feel bads.

That game wasn't all that fun to watch honestly, especially since they edit telegraphed everything. "Oh look, the UG deck is doing everything because UG can do everything. Yaaaaaaaaaaaay." I was actually mad when Ashlen went all in on that Bonfire. Don't play into those two open blue mana after king of value there drew 1100 cards.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,183
MSN, WI
I find Game Knights easy to admire, hard to like. So much work to make an EDH game feel like a coked up reality tv MTGA remake.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005
Yeah, I REB and PB in all my red decks without access to blue. Though on the odd occasion I'm in a group of friends and there's zero blue, they are super feel bads.
I didn't do this before, but I realized how much more reliable and therefore effective your decks become if you can dig deeper into the cards you want to win the game. Even in aggressive decks.

In red's case, I play Tormenting Voice, Faithless Looting, Thrill of Possibility, Magmatic Insight, Wild Guess. I even play Goblin Lore (and Control of the Court if it wasn't so bloody expensive) in decks that care about graveyards. All technically not card advantage, but you can easily pitch stuff that you don't need at the moment. Or a timely Squee if you find him. Underworld Breach even loves the discard as fuel. I feel like that's the card that is going to make red more competitive. It's so easy to fill your graveyard and then rebuy Mana Geyser over and over again and go semi-infinite.

I even play the other rituals (and wheel effects to replace the lost cards) so I can play my commander early and not lag behind the green ramp decks. It's actually pretty silly to try to play an arms race with U/G/x decks, but it feels even sillier to have 8 lands and 1 card in hand, while the other player has 16 lands and a full grip of cards.
 

Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,720
To the absolute surprise of no one, the U/G deck is busted.

Play spells that interact, people. Someone has to be the fun police to stop those kind of decks from going out of control. Josh literally played a t2 Phantasmal Image which stayed in play for several turns, gave him tens of mana, until it got bounced back to his hand and he gets to replay it again. WHY??

Also, red decks, play Pyroblast and/or Red Elemental Blast in your decks. Cyclonic Rift is a dumb card and any card that stops it from resolving is a win for everyone else at the table. It also nukes Rhystic Study if so desired. For one mana.

These are Firemind's hot tips of the year. Heed it and many U/G commanders shall fear you.
I somehow missed this episode coming out, but I thought it couldn't be as bad as you're describing.

It was worse.

I know no one's playing black or white, but holy shit @ the lack of any removal in something like....edit: 8 turns, until the bonfire comes up, and then gets pseudo-countered?

(The Equipment deck seems rather uninspired, and the Thassa deck really doesn't seem like it does anything from what little we see of it compared to a Roon or Chulane WBG blink-type decks - hell, the Uro deck is doing a better job of blinking than it is - but that's a different story, lol)

edit: also to the surprise of no one, the great henge is stupid good in commander.
 
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Nov 2, 2017
429
In red's case, I play Tormenting Voice, Faithless Looting, Thrill of Possibility, Magmatic Insight, Wild Guess. I even play Goblin Lore (and Control of the Court if it wasn't so bloody expensive) in decks that care about graveyards.
Yeah, I run most of those too in my monored, but it still sucks to dead draw a REB.

So, I just watched the newest Commander VS on Twitch and holy shit, Kroxa is just as miserable as Uro is. Having a cheap discard spell in your command zone at all times in a deck built around recurring him sounds like about the least fun thing I've ever seen to play against. So far I haven't even played against either Titan and I already hate them.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,293
Yeah, I run most of those too in my monored, but it still sucks to dead draw a REB.

So, I just watched the newest Commander VS on Twitch and holy shit, Kroxa is just as miserable as Uro is. Having a cheap discard spell in your command zone at all times in a deck built around recurring him sounds like about the least fun thing I've ever seen to play against. So far I haven't even played against either Titan and I already hate them.
I already built a kroxa deck but haven't gotten around to trying it out. My plan was to just put nothing but interaction spells into the deck and have woldgorger dragon combo to win at some point.
 

Boogiepop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,325

Anyone see anything glaring with my Alesha commander deck? It's the one that seems to have the most trouble out of my decks with my usual group, but admittedly that may be mostly down to the fact that the last two times I played it, I got hit with some expensive card that IIRC exiles hand and graveyard, and the deck just could NOT recover from that. But yeah, I love the theme of the deck and Alesha herself enough that even if it has to be my low-power/more casual deck, I can live with that. But if I can tune it a bit better, that'd be great. Though with that said, I just can't justify and don't go after serious money cards. Like, $30 is a soft limit where if it goes over that it has to be ESSENTIAL for the deck, and I definitely could never justify paying over $50 for a card at absolute most.

So yeah, would appreciate any thoughts!
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

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Oct 25, 2017
6,701

* The Birth of Meletis originally gained life based on the greatest toughness among creatures you control, but that made things too swingy with aggro decks. Either they destroyed the wall and you gained no life, or they couldn't and you gained control of the game.
* All demigods originally had power based on devotion, but that was too powerful for the ones that cost two mana. They considered weakening them by making them cost 1M (M = colored mana) instead of MM, but instead they made their toughness be based on devotion.
* With Shatter the Sky, it seems like four-mana wraths are here to stay. They decided Wrath of God is too strong, but there's plenty of room for wraths weaker than it at four mana.
* Elspeth Conquers Death originally returned only a creature or an Elspeth planeswalker with the last ability, but it was changed to any planeswalker. They realized the similarities with The Eldest Reborn, and tried to make sure it didn't come off as a weaker version of it.
* Elspeth, Sun's Nemesis had escape and all minus abilities from the start. It previously had the current set of abilities but 4 loyalty, and they actually weakened it by giving it 5 loyalty. Previously, the play pattern of make tokens -> make tokens -> escape -> make tokens was too strong, and now you have to do something else in between.
* Shimmerwing Chimera was originally a direct enchantment-shifted version of Esperzoa, but that proved to be much stronger in this environment than in Alara.
* Ashiok's Erasure was designed to hose escape-based decks, with it countering "can't be countered" to make it a bit more playable.
* Hateful Eidolon's ability was originally on Tyramet, but they decided to make it a build-around for white-black instead of just monoblack. It was also an aggro card with some trinket text, but they adjusted the stats to make the aura part more significant.
* Woe Strider could originally sacrifice itself, and got two goats on escape but none on normal enter. They decided to give it a single goat whenever it entered, so it felt good to cast it normally instead of making it a race to get it into the graveyard.
* Nightmare Shepherd was originally symmetrical. Whenever any nontoken creature died, its controller made a 1/1 Nightmare. However, it got +1/+1 for every Nightmare on the battlefield. This made things too grindy, so now it only brings back your own stuff and doesn't have the tribal effect.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005

Anyone see anything glaring with my Alesha commander deck? It's the one that seems to have the most trouble out of my decks with my usual group, but admittedly that may be mostly down to the fact that the last two times I played it, I got hit with some expensive card that IIRC exiles hand and graveyard, and the deck just could NOT recover from that. But yeah, I love the theme of the deck and Alesha herself enough that even if it has to be my low-power/more casual deck, I can live with that. But if I can tune it a bit better, that'd be great. Though with that said, I just can't justify and don't go after serious money cards. Like, $30 is a soft limit where if it goes over that it has to be ESSENTIAL for the deck, and I definitely could never justify paying over $50 for a card at absolute most.

So yeah, would appreciate any thoughts!
Cathars' Crusade seems good in this deck.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,043

Anyone see anything glaring with my Alesha commander deck? It's the one that seems to have the most trouble out of my decks with my usual group, but admittedly that may be mostly down to the fact that the last two times I played it, I got hit with some expensive card that IIRC exiles hand and graveyard, and the deck just could NOT recover from that. But yeah, I love the theme of the deck and Alesha herself enough that even if it has to be my low-power/more casual deck, I can live with that. But if I can tune it a bit better, that'd be great. Though with that said, I just can't justify and don't go after serious money cards. Like, $30 is a soft limit where if it goes over that it has to be ESSENTIAL for the deck, and I definitely could never justify paying over $50 for a card at absolute most.

So yeah, would appreciate any thoughts!
How do you want to win?
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,293
How do you want to win?
there's a couple combos inside from looking at it and otherwise a bunch of token generation. The deck really needs some more counter protection like pyro and red blast or grand abolisher and more cheap tutors like gamble.

I don't think the beatdown plan will work a lot of times and I'd remove at least some of the token makers or add purphoros but that card is expensive nowadays.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,148
Question on collector boosters (and yes, I know they aren't a monetarily efficient way of getting cards but I'm a cardboard gambling addict with more disposable income than restraint), Do the Theros Beyond Death collector boosters seem notably better than their Eldraine counterparts or was there something in the Eldraine ones I'm missing.
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,183
MSN, WI
Question on collector boosters (and yes, I know they aren't a monetarily efficient way of getting cards but I'm a cardboard gambling addict with more disposable income than restraint), Do the Theros Beyond Death collector boosters seem notably better than their Eldraine counterparts or was there something in the Eldraine ones I'm missing.
Depends on what you mean by 'better'. There are 2 foil full art lands in every pack, which is neat if you want them. And due to how the packs are collated, you could theoretically get a 5 mythic pack. There's a concern among finance-y types that the collector boosters will oversupply some cards and deflate prices.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,277
I rarely watch Rudy but I saw him open two boxes of Collector Boosters and it seemed like he was getting an unexpectedly large number of showcase mythic gods in the two showcase slots.

Pretty much every product will "pay for itself" on average once you break down the value of the singles but what made the Eldraine collector boosters so annoying was how swingy the value was relative to the cost-per-pack. You really had to hit on those foil extended art cards because there wasn't much demand for anything else in the pack. The fact that the Theros packs have two guaranteed foil Nyx lands will help add value to every single pack and reduce some of the variance. In that sense they are 'better'.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,148
By better I mainly mean that the interesting stuff seemed limited in Eldraine to the showcase adventure cards and the 1 rare/mythic card chance. Theros seemed potentially more generous with 5(?) slots that could be something special and my local shop has both at the same price. They jus seemed more interesting.

Not really looking to recoup cost as much as just collect some of the alt art/full art/etc.

Probably going to take the plunge and see what I come out with.

Edit: Bought a few. Averaged just over 3 rares per pack. Constellation card slots are rife with demigods. Got some theme booster exclusive rares and a buy a box card in the ancillary slot. Some alt arts are nice. Confirmed I'm not anything near my spending in gains, but this was fully expected.
 
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Metal Slugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,062
St. Cloud, MN
Bought a box yesterday and pulled foil Thassa, alt art Nylea, Purphoros, Nyxbloom Ancient, Uro, Nyx Lotus, Shadowspear and a bunch of other cool stuff with NO dupe rares. Probably the best box I've ever opened. No Idyllic Tutor though.
 

Izzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
354
Picked up a box for funsies and had a decent chunk of constellation demigods, and a fancy Erebos, but mostly whiffed on the cards I was really chasing. While it was fun to crack a bunch of packs, I am now regretting the giant chunk of useless commons and uncommons taking up so much space.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,359
Yea...not feeling limited Theros. It's just not fun the way Eldraine was. Games are way too grindy and enchantments just kind of suck to deal with.
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

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Oct 25, 2017
6,701

Confirms that a Theros: Beyond Death book did exist, but they delayed it after the response to War of the Spark: Forsaken. Ikoria will have a normal book release. They plan to release the THB book at some point.

Regarding green's recent push, during Guilds of Ravnica Standard, white saw significant tournament play and dominated Best of One on Arena, and green didn't see much play, so they deliberately chose to weaken white and strengthen green.

They are looking to address white's weakness in recent Limited formats, Commander, and Pioneer, but different solutions are required for each. Some early attempts to address this will be seen throughout 2020.
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,922
Good to know the past year of Standard has been so terrible, in part, because of evaluating and overreacting to Best of One.

Ugh.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,712

Confirms that a Theros: Beyond Death book did exist, but they delayed it after the response to War of the Spark: Forsaken. Ikoria will have a normal book release. They plan to release the THB book at some point.

Regarding green's recent push, during Guilds of Ravnica Standard, white saw significant tournament play and dominated Best of One on Arena, and green didn't see much play, so they deliberately chose to weaken white and strengthen green.

They are looking to address white's weakness in recent Limited formats, Commander, and Pioneer, but different solutions are required for each. Some early attempts to address this will be seen throughout 2020.
Honestly, this is the sort of shit that worries me about Arena. Green midrange was totally fine in that standard, but midrange tends to be better after side boarding thanks to its flexibility. So they just... Fucking turbo-pushed Green and destroyed White (And to a lesser degree, Red). Because of Bo1.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,025
NYC
Honestly, this is the sort of shit that worries me about Arena.
Especially how they seem to not be able to use that info from arena very reactively. i.e. with him saying that they knew green was OP in eldraine, but couldn't react to it quick enough with theros so theros continued that train. It's not very helpful to be reactionary that way if it's so delayed.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,712
Especially how they seem to not be able to use that info from arena very reactively. i.e. with him saying that they knew green was OP in eldraine, but couldn't react to it quick enough with theros so theros continued that train. It's not very helpful to be reactionary that way if it's so delayed.
There's also the inherent difference in what works in Bo1 and Bo3. This is the current Bo1 environment.



Welp, time to nerf White and Red aggro again!
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,701
New Wizards survey

Notably they ask about bringing back old artists, and using the old frame. They also ask about the Secret Lair drop series, so those first two are likely related to that.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005
White saw significant play during Guilds of Ravnica Standard? I can't remember this at all. Was that the format with History of Benalia? Didn't seem that warping, honestly. Although printing a two mana counterspell would have helped a bit to contain it. And a four mana Wrath. But, sure, it's white weenies' fault.
 
Feb 16, 2018
1,062
arena best of 1 and best of 3 are very different

i thought the situation might improve when the idiotic decision to ban different cards in different queues expired, but it mostly hasn't

almost all the aggro players still queue for best of 1
this reduces the frequency of aggro in best of 3, so people aren't sufficiently handicapped for having a deck that's weak against aggro

and then you probably don't even want to play aggro in best of 3 because wotc decided to depower all the 1 and 2 drops
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,277
White saw significant play during Guilds of Ravnica Standard? I can't remember this at all. Was that the format with History of Benalia? Didn't seem that warping, honestly. Although printing a two mana counterspell would have helped a bit to contain it. And a four mana Wrath. But, sure, it's white weenies' fault.
You remember all the Benalish Marshal decks running around, don't you? The "Boros" and "Azorius" decks?
 

Koz

Member
Sep 5, 2018
235
arena best of 1 and best of 3 are very different

i thought the situation might improve when the idiotic decision to ban different cards in different queues expired, but it mostly hasn't

almost all the aggro players still queue for best of 1
this reduces the frequency of aggro in best of 3, so people aren't sufficiently handicapped for having a deck that's weak against aggro

and then you probably don't even want to play aggro in best of 3 because wotc decided to depower all the 1 and 2 drops
I was going to say this. The bo1 queue has a ton of aggro decks in it between people not main boarding tech against it and people wanting to finish their dailies ASAP. Rakdos sac is a legit meta deck IMO, though the ones I've seen aren't quite as aggressive as the one shown in the graphic.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,005
You remember all the Benalish Marshal decks running around, don't you? The "Boros" and "Azorius" decks?
Not really. Boros at that PT, sure, but it wasn't overpowered or anything. And that's without a T4 Wrath. I've never seen a white weenie deck taking Standard by storm that had Wrath in the format. Lesson: print 4cc Wraths.
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
522
Not really. Boros at that PT, sure, but it wasn't overpowered or anything. And that's without a T4 Wrath. I've never seen a white weenie deck taking Standard by storm that had Wrath in the format. Lesson: print 4cc Wraths.
There was a lot of white weenie in some of the MPL splits but I'm not sure that's the period they're talking about, and that also has the pros trying to next level each other so shouldn't count.

You've got to think the sets designed in the last year are going to be depowered overall if they are really reacting to what's been happening.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,712
You remember all the Benalish Marshal decks running around, don't you? The "Boros" and "Azorius" decks?
White Weenie was good but never actually dominated paper standard. Pro Tour GRN was just the result of the field not being prepared for WW; later tournaments saw it recede to become one of the many viable top tier decks in the format like Golgari midrange, Izzet Drakes, RDW, Jeskai control, etc.

I feel like the only reason WW got singled out is because it was strong in Bo1. It also makes sense with them saying Green was underpowered even though Golgari midrange was one of the most played decks outside Bo1.
Not really. Boros at that PT, sure, but it wasn't overpowered or anything. And that's without a T4 Wrath. I've never seen a white weenie deck taking Standard by storm that had Wrath in the format. Lesson: print 4cc Wraths.
With Settle the Wreckage, UW control really didn’t need a 4 mana wrath in that format.
 
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Metroidvania

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,720
Regarding green's recent push, during Guilds of Ravnica Standard, white saw significant tournament play and dominated Best of One on Arena, and green didn't see much play, so they deliberately chose to weaken white and strengthen green.

They are looking to address white's weakness in recent Limited formats, Commander, and Pioneer, but different solutions are required for each. Some early attempts to address this will be seen throughout 2020.
What on earth is this, I don't even. The book is one thing, but they're only 'now' seeing (or rather, being able to react to) white being shit in commander/pioneer?

.....Geez.

And after their first 'attempt' with happily ever after, I can't even being to take them seriously, lol.

The B01/Arena thing is another oddity - considering how blatantly OP green is right now, I can't imagine how they couldn't course-correct in time for Theros block.