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Magic: The Gathering |OT| Throne of Eldraine - Will and Rowan's Excellent Adventure

Metal Slugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
908
St. Cloud, MN
Sperling's Sick of It - Throne of Eldraine Edition

Great Sick of It for this set. Agree with pretty much all his criticism.

Early days, but for me this set is looking rough on all axes. Constructed: more dumb three-mana PWs; silly, obviously-pushed mythics; inconsistent design. The limited format seems to be the worst of both worlds, where the games are long, drawn-out slogs that are still hugely dependent on bomb rares/uncommons. And I really don't like the trend of printing more and more cards that are Standard-legal without appearing in regular boosters.


HAHA THE INNKEEPER IS FAT LIKE KEVIN FROM THE OFFICE LMAO

Standard hot takes are the worst aspect of MtG.
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,606
Sperling's Sick of It - Throne of Eldraine Edition

Great Sick of It for this set. Agree with pretty much all his criticism.

Early days, but for me this set is looking rough on all axes. Constructed: more dumb three-mana PWs; silly, obviously-pushed mythics; inconsistent design. The limited format seems to be the worst of both worlds, where the games are long, drawn-out slogs that are still hugely dependent on bomb rares/uncommons. And I really don't like the trend of printing more and more cards that are Standard-legal without appearing in regular boosters.
His limited critique is spot on. Revenge of Ravens is also a dumb fucking uncommon.

Im "infinite" thus far, and in this set too, and I have no desire to play this set in limited. I don't care if I average 3-2. It's miserable.
 

bardo

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,864
Ordering from TGCplayer: Good experience or bad?

EDIT: The writing is so bad in that Sperling post. He makes some good points but you have to read everything 2-3 times to understand it.
 
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Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,747
I like a lot of the set, but dislike it a lot too. My quick summary since I'm phone typing, from the perspective of a BO1 Standard exclusive player

+Food is fun. Trail of Crumbs, Savvy Hunter, and Witch's Oven are among my fav cards ever.

+Cauldron Familiar is one of the most versatile cards in awhile. It's a meme but it fits in Rakdos Sacrifice, Orzhov Aristocats, Golgari Bakeries...its interactions with multiple fields of play [death, etb, food] are all fascinating.

+My boy Garruk is back and his curse is lifted!

+Midrange actually exists again after a full year of control and aggro domination.

And the downsides...

-Oko is a mess and the Scions aren't much better. I like their flavor but both come out with more loyalty on turn 1 for 3 than Garruk for for 6. They're too durable. I LOVE Oko's abilities but at the very least his +2 should be a +1 and his +1 a -1.

-Golos Field is dumb and made worse by lack of counters. It wouldn't be so bad if land hate hadnt basically disappeared. Lands being a weakness late game is critical to balance and for this deck it's a strength? It's an issue as long as removin enemy lands is nearly impossible.

-White got screwed. I don't even play white but I pity it. They basically have Orzhov Aristocrats, a mediocre Bolos suite, and a token Abzan Wolves presence. Mono white is damn near dead and it has barely any presence in guilds.

-Adamant was dead on arrival. They introduced a new keyword that is completely irrelevant.
 

TAFAE

Member
Aug 27, 2018
157
Michigan
TCGPlayer is good. I'm happy to buy from basically any seller that has more than like 100 sales and positive reviews, enough to know they're established and I'm unlikely to get scammed or anything. The worst that's ever happened to me is it took like a week for a seller to ship something.

A lot of the "humor" in Sperling's article isn't great, but I agree with the gameplay criticisms he makes. Like, what is Play Design doing when they allow a card like Once Upon a Time to be printed? It's about 2/3rds of an Ancient Stirrings, a card on the shortlist of cards Wizards is watching for a potential ban in Modern, but you can also cast the first one for free most of the time? Was there some kind of abandoned idea of printing cards for Standard that are immediately banned in eternal formats? He didn't even mention Emry, a card with Affinity for Artifacts that also more or less draws a card for free every turn.

Even if you're just looking at Standard, after we've suffered through 6 months of obnoxious planeswalkers with too-low mana costs that immediately replace and/or protect themselves and punish you for doing most game actions, we're gifted with Oko, who not only deals with any problem creature or artifact as a + ability but is also nearly impossible to remove due to his starting loyalty. They even knew that the planeswalkers were a problem as evidenced by the ability soup on Questing Beast, which, by the way, can't even kill Oko! Why print an over the top planeswalker hate card that can't even deal with the planeswalkers in the same set? I guess I saw Melissa DeTora mentioned in her dev diary post for War of the Spark that they intentionally put powerful effects on cheap planeswalkers like Narset, cards that they know are typically hard to remove in a profitable way, so I'm not even sure why I would expect them to learn a lesson here.

I want "The Kind of Old Spell," 1+R/B, Destroy target planeswalker. (New line for separate abilities, don't want to get passive punked by Narset.) Draw a card.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,043
Adamant was a limited mechanic there's no pushed for constructed card except the deal 4 for 3 but red is pretty dead rn. There's a couple that could see fringe play like the instant double regrowth.

I don't think there's even a rare or mythic with adamant.



Edit: Oh and Sperling is a tool ignore him
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,747



Perfect 6-win streak from Gold 1 to Plat 4...

And the final boss? Golos Field. Of COURSE.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,300
Draft being a slow format is greatly exaggerated. It's definitely not slower than Dominaria. All colours except black have great tools at common to swing the tempo. Sometimes you don't need to go all out depending on what you're playing against. I can't count the number of times I've used a pump spell to counter Reave Soul or the -2/-0 flash aura to counter the fight spell.

Unlike Dominaria where green allowed you to play all colours, in Eldraine, it's comparitively much easier to account for your opponent's future plays. Doing the math is pretty important here since food can screw up the math. Combat tricks are pretty linear but they allow you to singlehandedly win games. Sometimes you'll get beaten by a card like Savvy Hunter but that's limited. There are so many uncommons that are swingy. Dominaria feels underpowered by comparison.

Compare Hallar with Grumgully. Slimefoot is better than Savvy Hunter in a vacuum; you just need mana to make Slimefoot filthy. In the right food deck, Savvy Hunter can generate so much value and they stack much better.
 
Feb 16, 2018
984
most games aren't unreasonably slow, but it seems like 5-15% of decks end up without a reliable way to win other than mill. that drags out the total round length of an event
 

Buttzerker

Powerhouse Protector
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,747
Careful with those Magic Mirrors, guys. Seems I was watching his deck closer than he was.

 
OP
OP
SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,086

Coming November 12, but up for preorder now. The article includes story details. Most interesting to me is that we'll learn more about The Wanderer here.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,268
716
Haha they really are going to have to ban something or somethings aren't they? What a bad few years it's been for Standard and power level gauging in general.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,294
at least I will get 4 rare wild cards back.

Haha they really are going to have to ban something or somethings aren't they? What a bad few years it's been for Standard and power level gauging in general.
it's more like that previously they had a complete aversion to ban problematic stuff, collected company, mirrodin affinity for a long period of time, etcetera.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,268
716
Standard should be the format with the MOST bans. It's all about making the game fun at that level.
If they stop pushing cards to the moon and do proper testing they wouldn't have to ban anything, like they didn't for a LOOOOONG time. I might have some sympathy if people didn't break the format during the first week of it being out, but they ALWAYS do. If the random people playing your game can break it that quickly, you're doing something wrong in design and testing.
 

Ashodin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,491
Burlington, NC
If they stop pushing cards to the moon and do proper testing they wouldn't have to ban anything, like they didn't for a LOOOOONG time. I might have some sympathy if people didn't break the format during the first week of it being out, but they ALWAYS do. If the random people playing your game can break it that quickly, you're doing something wrong in design and testing.
Oh I agree. I just think that it's an incredibly difficult set of spinning plates to keep balanced because of how rotation works. Thus, bans should be necessary and not shied away from.
 
Feb 16, 2018
984
they're in a weird spot with how they do bans

they should be balancing a lot more based on power level, but they're awful at evaluating power level so they can only ban based on deck diversity metrics or some weird things like game experience (rounds taking too long and ruining tournaments)

"ferocidon unbanned in bo3 only because red is popular in bo1"
either a card/strategy is too strong or it isn't. how many people decide to play it doesn't change how broken it is when you run into it

all the bullshit that got played in standard over the past 9 months makes the rogue refiner and ferocidon bans look silly. i can deal with a 3/3 creature or a 3/2 creature that waits a turn before doing anything a lot easier than i can deal with a nexus or kethis or sorin or oko or turn 3 nissa
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,294
If they stop pushing cards to the moon and do proper testing they wouldn't have to ban anything, like they didn't for a LOOOOONG time. I might have some sympathy if people didn't break the format during the first week of it being out, but they ALWAYS do. If the random people playing your game can break it that quickly, you're doing something wrong in design and testing.
more "testing" is probably done in the first day of a new release than all the official testing done by wizard only by the sheer number of players that play the game.
and again, they didn't not ban things in the past because things were more balanced, they were simply a lot more reluctant to ban broken shit :v
 

TAFAE

Member
Aug 27, 2018
157
Michigan
Cool, looks like they're going to probably hit Field in Standard? Maybe something out of the buckwild Urza decks in Modern? I endorse the guy in Ari's mentions saying to ban all Standard U planeswalkers that aren't Mu Yanling though. Points for trying for sure.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,268
716
more "testing" is probably done in the first day of a new release than all the official testing done by wizard only by the sheer number of players that play the game.
and again, they didn't not ban things in the past because things were more balanced, they were simply a lot more reluctant to ban broken shit :v
Obviously the numbers are higher when the cards go out in the wild. But many times we recognize broken cards and interactions during spoiler season, before they even get played. It sincerely feels like they don’t test at all sometimes.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,294
Obviously the numbers are higher when the cards go out in the wild. But many times we recognize broken cards and interactions during spoiler season, before they even get played. It sincerely feels like they don’t test at all sometimes.
FoD probably flew under the radar because it gained only once upon a time from eldraine and lost it's big mythic spell with rotation.
humans are fallable, better trying to correct your mistakes rather than doing nothing and behave like everything is fine :v
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,043
FoD probably flew under the radar because it gained only once upon a time from eldraine and lost it's big mythic spell with rotation.
humans are fallable, better trying to correct your mistakes rather than doing nothing and behave like everything is fine :v
Scapeshift wasn't even the final form of Field of the Dead decks. It's very likely they just didn't test the card having made it for commander but that's not a particularly great excuse for missing it for 2 sets. They have a team whose primary purpose is to test standard and someone should have tried jamming singleton lands with Golos just once.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,822
I feel that if we had a Field of Ruin in the format, we probably would be fine. A constructed playable answer to land is missing right now
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,606
I really, truly despise this limited format and the prevalence of BG Food + Revenge of Ravens Grindfest 2019.

EDIT: And U/X Merfolk Secretkeeper mill.

80% of the format is this.
 
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Feb 16, 2018
984
no it doesn't rogue refiner was one of the worst offenders in the last 5 years of standard.

Imagine Risen Reef was a 3/2 instead of a 1/1.
the relative weakness of amonkhet/ixalan was the problem, not the 3/2 that draws a card

refiner was easier to play against with a normal deck than any of the cards i listed

i agreed with the refiner ban, but i disagree that it and ferocidon were in some higher tier of power than all the recent bullshit
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,043
the amount of times I got milled in paper drafts suggest it's not just arena bots, the mill deck is just very easy to get together being all commons
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,268
716
FoD probably flew under the radar because it gained only once upon a time from eldraine and lost it's big mythic spell with rotation.
humans are fallable, better trying to correct your mistakes rather than doing nothing and behave like everything is fine :v
I’m fine with them correcting mistakes. But how many times do we find out they last minute changed something and it was broken? Can we have them last minute sneak an already existing. answer into the file even once? Spyglass is a staple now, why isn’t Field of Ruin?
 

cagey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,606
the amount of times I got milled in paper drafts suggest it's not just arena bots, the mill deck is just very easy to get together being all commons
The deck is stronger on Arena because the bots can be gamed and they’re not prioritizing the common mill staples and stall cards, but it's 80% a design problem.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,822
Lets make a checklist for Wizards, for cards that need to be in standard AT ALL TIMES
-A colorless Pithing Needle effect, costed to be constructed playable
-A colorless way to destroy lands that can be included without too much effort in decks that are 2 colors (and maybe a stretch in 3-4 color decks)
-At least 1 constructed-playable graveyard hate artifact, along with colored graveyard hate cards
-A constructed-playable card that includes the text "destroy target planeswalker" somewhere on it
-Artifact/Enchantment removal at 2 mana or less
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,300
I really, truly despise this limited format and the prevalence of BG Food + Revenge of Ravens Grindfest 2019.

EDIT: And U/X Merfolk Secretkeeper mill.

80% of the format is this.
Are you playing on arena? This hasn't been my experience on MTGO.

the amount of times I got milled in paper drafts suggest it's not just arena bots, the mill deck is just very easy to get together being all commons
The only time I got milled out through my opponent's milling was when my opponent played Folio of Fancies and Dance of the Manse.
 
Nov 2, 2017
376
Revenge of Ravens is a dumb ass uncommon. It's so annoying.

I'd like to apologize to my opponent just now. My daily was kill 15 creatures and since none of my decks are currently all that removal heavy, I just decided to make a mono-black removal deck that was entirely kills spells and 1 drop death touchers and ways to draw cards. Opponent was playing an Oko Hydroid Krassis dealy. I had them down to one after drawing literally 40 cards and killing ever single thing he did. Then he topped a hydroid and won, so at least he got that. I felt really bad for dragging it out. It was so trolly. I got my daily in one. Dailies like that are assy.