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Magic: The Gathering |OT| Throne of Eldraine - Will and Rowan's Excellent Adventure

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
808
I'm really curious about the wording on (Theros spoiler) Chainweb Aracnir. It escapes with three +1/+1 counters on it? If that means what it sounds like it means -- it gets those counters once you cast it for its Escape cost -- would that mean it has them while it's on the stack? So, would it count as a creature spell with power 4 for things that care, like Sarkahn's Unsealing? These are the kinds of things I wonder about when I see new cards. Templating. Lol.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,783
NYC
I'm really curious about the wording on (Theros spoiler) Chainweb Aracnir. It escapes with three +1/+1 counters on it? If that means what it sounds like it means -- it gets those counters once you cast it for its Escape cost -- would that mean it has them while it's on the stack? So, would it count as a creature spell with power 4 for things that care, like Sarkahn's Unsealing? These are the kinds of things I wonder about when I see new cards. Templating. Lol.
I don't think it's a creature spell, it's an ability to bring it back. but outside of that, I think the creature is what it is, counters are counters for a reason (the base card itself doesnt change).
I'm wondering what particular interaction you're thinking this might affect?
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,061
If a creature enters the battlefield "with" +1/+1 counters, then an effect that cares about power 4 or greater will notice it. Think of 0/0 creatures that enter the battlefield with counters; they don't die before they get counters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
If a creature enters the battlefield "with" +1/+1 counters, then an effect that cares about power 4 or greater will notice it. Think of 0/0 creatures that enter the battlefield with counters; they don't die before they get counters.
In the case of Sarkhan’s Unsealing however, it won’t trigger since its looking for the power of the creature on the stack.
 

PsionBolt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
808
The short answer is that +1/+1 counters can only exist on the battlefield, nowhere else.
I don't believe this is the case, per rule 122.1a.
Comprehensive Rules said:
122.1a A +X/+Y counter on a creature or on a creature card in a zone other than the battlefield, where X and Y are numbers, adds X to that object’s power and Y to that object’s toughness.
The reason +1/+1 counters never exist outside the battlefield normally is because nothing puts +1/+1 counters on non-permanents, and permanents that have them lose them when they move zones due to rule 122.2. That's the rule that strongly implies Arcanir won't have them on the stack, I suppose. It's probably not worth breaking it just for this ridiculously tiny edge case. I'm sure "escapes with" will mean "ETBs with when cast for its escape cost" once the term gets defined in the comp rules.

So really, I was just observing that the wording is ambiguous as printed on the card; I don't think this sort of interaction will ever actually matter.
(Especially since there doesn't seem to be a counterspell based on creature spell power... For some reason, I thought I remembered one, but now I can't find it on Scryfall. Oh well. They should print one of those, it'd be neat.)
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
9,703
I love MaRo but the endless parroting of his takes can be obnoxious.

“Oko’s broken, but his +1 actually isn’t removal because it leaves a 3/3 and when you think about it the creature isn’t actually removed from the battlefield”

Like Jesus Christ, why are we still getting this opinion after he won a Legacy tournament by turning fucking Emrakul the Aeons Torn into a worthless Elk.
 
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Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
6,686
You may have noticed if you've participated in a Great Designer Search (especially the last one), but Wizards designers are kind of massive fucking pedants.

As such I'm not sure if he's trying to say it's not a problem, or just trying to "Well, actually..." because he's spotted a technicality to invoke.
 

Nordicus

Member
Oct 29, 2017
555
Finland
I love MaRo but the endless parroting of his takes can be obnoxious.

“Oko’s broken, but his +1 actually isn’t removal because it leaves a 3/3 and when you think about it the creature isn’t actually removed from the battlefield”

Like Jesus Christ, why are we still getting this opinion after he won a Legacy tournament by turning fucking Emrakul the Aeons Torn into a worthless Elk.
You dare suggest that these usually mediocre transformation effects are far better when they're an infinitely repeatable mode that cost no additional resources?
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,247
It's pretty funny he neglects to mention that Oko can also create a bunch of 3/3s from food tokens which is basically game over against traditional control decks.

There has to be a Wrath that can also kill Planeswalkers printed in the next two years, right?
 

acheron_xl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,796
MSN, WI
Oko's Hubris
UB
Instant
Counter target activated ability. If an ability of a creature or planeswalker is countered this way, its controller sacrifices it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
The Theros leaks are neat, but obviously we all know this means that spoiler season is ruined now. Which is kinda disappointing.

What's more disappointing? Boring-ass enchantment creatures. Just tacking the enchantment type on a pile of creatures is lame. Enchantment creatures should feel like enchantments. The Gods and Bestow were genius ways of dealing with this. The rest - not so much. I had the same problem with Born and Journey.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,166
The Theros leaks are neat, but obviously we all know this means that spoiler season is ruined now. Which is kinda disappointing.

What's more disappointing? Boring-ass enchantment creatures. Just tacking the enchantment type on a pile of creatures is lame. Enchantment creatures should feel like enchantments. The Gods and Bestow were genius ways of dealing with this. The rest - not so much. I had the same problem with Born and Journey.
I was good with creatures with global effects and constellation being Enchantment Creatures as well, even though normal creatures can have global effects. Still felt sufficiently enchantment to me. But yeah, vanilla Enchantment Creatures are the worst (though it's understandable why you'd want to convert some vanilla creatures into Enchantment Creatures for the sake of filling out Enchantments in the Enchantments Matter block)
 

Joe Molotov

Member
Oct 25, 2017
273
I love MaRo but the endless parroting of his takes can be obnoxious.

“Oko’s broken, but his +1 actually isn’t removal because it leaves a 3/3 and when you think about it the creature isn’t actually removed from the battlefield”

Like Jesus Christ, why are we still getting this opinion after he won a Legacy tournament by turning fucking Emrakul the Aeons Torn into a worthless Elk.
Elks are creatures too, my friend.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,095
I feel like Oko or Felidar Guardian might be the most likely candidates for an early ban but I'm not sure the format has settled enough to say for sure.
 

TAFAE

Member
Aug 27, 2018
154
Michigan
I hope that they go for an incremental approach given that they're planning to do these off-cycle and frequently. Something like 1 or 2 cards at a time. I could see the first one being maybe a little bit bigger to hit Cruise+DTT, part of cat combo, something in the G(x) ramp decks. I can't imagine Oko will be banned in Pioneer before he's banned in Standard, but that would really be something.
 
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SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,061
centurosplaneswalker asked: What makes Beast Within Not Okay for dealing with creatures, but Kenrith's Transformation Just Fine?
There was much argument about whether it was okay. The fact is could be undone was what let us allow it as a severe bend but not a break.

October 30, 2019

centurosplaneswalker asked: Technically Beast Within can be undone, by Black, Green, and sometimes White, without even removing your 3/3. "It's an aura" is a weird justification when the alternative is a graveyard with more holes than the one on Theros.
Yeah, I’m leaning towards the Transfornation being a break in green.

October 31, 2019

mgmegadog asked: Why was Kenrith's Transformation made green in the first place? I understand it was a spell cast by Oko, but he's GU, and it's ABSOLUTELY in blue's slice of the pie.
Don’t get me started. We wanted it in blue, but due to logistical factors, set design needed it in green. I wish we had pushed harder to move it to blue even if it required emergency art.

October 31, 2019

Seems like MaRo was more upset about Kenrith's Transformation than previously implied.

myheartgoesoontz asked: As one of the first people to have created a Commander Cube and pioneered discussions on the format, Commander Legends seems like a love letter written specifically to me. (So thanks!) Is it the "innovation product" for Magic in 2020, or are there other surprises up your sleeves?
Commander Legends is the innovation product for 2020.

October 30, 2019

lookingupanddown asked: Do you have any new designs in Commander Legends? If yes, how much?
I do not. I didn’t work on that project.

October 31, 2019

nouser1000 asked: Is scry X, X being the ammount of life you gained, too much for white?
I’m interested in exploring higher scry effects for white.

October 30, 2019

Scry 60 incoming.

strangerside-blog asked: If for design reasons you had to push fight into a third color for a set, what color would that be? Could black fight at some additional cost (like life)?
I think white is more likely as a third color than black. Black’s fourth though.

October 31, 2019

White fight could be interesting.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,095
I can't imagine Oko will be banned in Pioneer before he's banned in Standard, but that would really be something.
I would laugh and note the absurdity of it but it also wouldn't surprise me at all. Oko is very oppressive against almost all creature decks. If the point of frontier is to be less combo-centric than Modern he can't stick around.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,752

Sounds like Pioneer will have weekly announcements for a while, every monday, even if there is no change. They originally were treating this as an MTGO-only format and would do things at will, but they didn't realize Oko murdered standard how much paper Pioneer would be played
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,770
They created an insane demand for Pioneer by fucking up Standard so much. They didn't expect to get this much play this fast. It's not surprising.
 

f0rk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
412
There hasn't been a big enough pioneer event yet to prove a deck is broken, I don't see how the first announcement can be anything but no changes. After that weekly announcements seems excessive, surely 80% will be no changes.
 

bardo

Member
Jan 12, 2018
2,858
I'm doing a booster draft at home this weekend. Which sets might be best for a sealed draft: Guilds of Ravnica or Ravnica Allegiance? I have tons of Throne, 2020, and Spark cards, so those are off the list.
 

Piecake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,158
I played an arena limited game where this happened

My opponent went:

Turn 1: Goose
Turn 2: Oko
Turn 3: Fierce Witchstalker

I just conceded