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Mai could not be included in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate without raising the game's CERO A rating states Sakurai

RestEerie

Member
Aug 20, 2018
7,484
Chun-Li still got two spirits, whereas Mai got nothing, so that wasn’t the problem. Plus she’s still fully covered.
i don't why you guys kept citing Chun-Li but she's just 'thick thigh' lady and that's about it, nothing too sleazy (SFV alt costume notwithstanding) but Mai's outfit is literally stripper level........with DoA level of boob bouncing (no surprise she guest starred over there).
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
883
It's weird how both in the west and Japan people are against sexualized characters, but the reasoning behind that is quite different. It seems like in Japan at least from Cero's perspective there are some puritanical undertones.

Sakurai also using the same arguments as those alt right chuds too. "You want to ban sexy women but firearms are okay!"
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,136
User Warned: Inflammatory false equivalence
This 'can't see too much thigh' CERO nonsense, strikes of weird Victorian puritanical BS.
Its kinda creepy to be honest and doesnt make any sense.

And you have Geese standing there with his entire top off lol.
 
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PtM

Member
Dec 7, 2017
1,238
I mean, it was obvious. During Wii U's development, Sakurai spoke about how difficult CERO was about avoiding panty shots in Palutena and Wonder-Pink.
In this game, it's clear from the alterations done to Mythra and Camilla.
Even other games were effected. Dragon Quest VIII on 3DS altered some of Jessica's alternate costumes to be less revealing from the PS2 version (people blamed Nintendo but it wasn't them).
Both Smash Bros and Dragon Quest strive for the A rating so they had to make adjustments. Apparently, CERO has gotten a lot more strict in the last decade.
So THAT's why Smash 4 added those black voids underneath skirts! I always found that pretty clever (and cool, in Rosalina's case).
 
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Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,685
I don't really get how Mai would raise the rating but Bayonetta doesn't/didn't, but oh well.

Could've used Kula instead!
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,685
As stated several times in this thread: Bayonetta is covered up, while Mai is almost naked.
And Bayonetta constantly gets almost naked throughout the fight for her specials. Shouldn't really make a difference if a character is skimpy clothed to begin with or basically strips down for attacks, imo.
 

Lichtsang

Member
Jan 2, 2018
4,424
And Bayonetta constantly gets almost naked throughout the fight for her specials. Shouldn't really make a difference if a character is skimpy clothed to begin with or basically strips down for attacks, imo.
Just for split-seconds and even then she is more covered up than Mai would be in her idle animation.
 

4 Get!

Member
Apr 8, 2019
36
Would it have made things better to use one of her previous scrapped designs?



I would have chosen B2, G, I, or , J and just explain to the audience why.
 

tokubek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
316
Germany
I'm bummed out a little but not terribly disappointed, she has enough cameos elsewhere. I just think they could've done something to get her in... though I don't want to come off as too demanding because you clearly see Sakurai loves SNK.
 

Acetown

Member
Oct 28, 2017
320
So is CERO the most repressive of the big rating boards around the world? I remember when Japan had this mythical reputation of the place to go for uncut, uncensored video games, a far cry from puritanical Europe where the Contra characters had to be replaced with robots.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
9,034
So is CERO the most repressive of the big rating boards around the world? I remember when Japan had this mythical reputation of the place to go for uncut, uncensored video games, a far cry from puritanical Europe where the Contra characters had to be replaced with robots.
There's a reason why western games with nudity gets censored in Japan. Their ratings are harsh with nudity and violence.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
1,062
I am not a smash player but I see they kept ripped-ryu's cleavage, he doesn't have an undershirt, so it has to be more an issue on the lower part of the costume~
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,652
So is CERO the most repressive of the big rating boards around the world? I remember when Japan had this mythical reputation of the place to go for uncut, uncensored video games, a far cry from puritanical Europe where the Contra characters had to be replaced with robots.
The one thing CERO does better than ESRB is having a soft M-rating similar to PEGI. They also weigh swear words and metaphorical imagery a little less (Persona 3 is rated higher in the US compared to Japan because of it).
 

mute

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,691
Said it in the stream thread but really the best thing they could do and appreciate the upfront directness, as opposed to when companies just pretend nothing ever happened. Also raises some interesting questions regarding ratings and DLC. Shame that Leona didn't make the cut but her teammates did too.

You could probably get around it by doing something with her less revealing victory poses or by making use of her fans/umbrella, but at the end of the day if she is not there in *that* outfit doing *that* idle animation people are probably going to be more upset than if she weren't there at all lol.
 

Shudouken

Member
Jun 19, 2019
283
She would have shown just as much skin as zero suit samus' alt costumes do.


I think Sakurai just wanted to not bother with CERO at all and ruled her out from the start.
Also I think DLC has to have the same rating as the base game, wouldn't make sense to me if that wasn't the case.
 

NotLiquid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,652
She would have shown just as much skin as zero suit samus' alt costumes do.


I think Sakurai just wanted to not bother with CERO at all and ruled her out from the start.
Also I think DLC has to have the same rating as the base game, wouldn't make sense to me if that wasn't the case.
While ZSS does show skin, her chest area and thighs are covered up. Mai exhibits sideboob and her entire legs are exposed. Back during Smash 4, the character CERO had the most trouble with was Palutena of all characters because the side cloth seperated too high up at the leg and exposed her hips. They yielded to what was basically a centimeter alteration.
 

Wishbone Ash

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
932
Michigan
She would have shown just as much skin as zero suit samus' alt costumes do.


I think Sakurai just wanted to not bother with CERO at all and ruled her out from the start.
Also I think DLC has to have the same rating as the base game, wouldn't make sense to me if that wasn't the case.
Is that how CERO works? With ESRB it doesn't have to. Publishers might put a disclaimer that DLC might not match up with the base game rating, but iirc it isn't required to be reviewed at all
 

Shudouken

Member
Jun 19, 2019
283
Is that how CERO works? With ESRB it doesn't have to. Publishers might put a disclaimer that DLC might not match up with the base game rating, but iirc it isn't required to be reviewed at all
Ok my bad, seems to be the same with CERO after some researching.
I'm not sure about parts of a season pass having a higher rating than the rest though.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,518
It's weird how both in the west and Japan people are against sexualized characters, but the reasoning behind that is quite different. It seems like in Japan at least from Cero's perspective there are some puritanical undertones.

Sakurai also using the same arguments as those alt right chuds too. "You want to ban sexy women but firearms are okay!"
Well, in his case, he can be rightfully angry since he has to remodel anything that doesn't pass the ratings board, meaning more work for the smallest things.
 

Shining Star

Member
May 14, 2019
821
I guess if you want that low CERO rating they are super strict. The restrictions are way more lax on other games.
 

Daysean

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,611
Sakurai straight up says* in tweet above that CERO hit them up immediately about panty shots regarding characters with skirts in the past

Everyone Else In Thread: ok but what about this character that shows skin (but doesn't show panty shots)
 

DragonKeeper

Member
Nov 14, 2017
706
What a weird take. Apparently all women not wearing dresses or robot armor are off limits for you?

Not trying to be offensive I'm just wondering why you actively "despise" such characters because the Smash depictions of these characters aren't really what I'd consider over the limit, or even close to it. Help me understand.
Painted on body suits are one step away from being nude and a character from a game that's not exactly shy about being sexually explicit complete with perv camera. I lost my patience with women's bodies being carved into select cuts of meat on display for male consumption long ago. I'm fine with sexualization when its appropriate, but "when appropriate" doesn't mean "all the time and everywhere". And a game featuring appropriate for all ages characters is one spot one might think sexually explicit characters don't need to show up.

I also have to say to the "just dress her in better clothes" crowd. I can already hear the howls of the "that's censorship!" crowd.
 
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Neoxon

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,388
Houston, TX
Painted on body suits are one step away from being nude and a character from a game that's not exactly shy about being sexually explicit complete with perv camera. I lost my patience with women's bodies being carved into select cuts of meat on display for male consumption long ago. I'm fine with sexualization when its appropriate, but "when appropriate" doesn't mean "all the time and everywhere". And a game featuring appropriate for all ages characters is one spot one might think sexually explicit characters don't need to show up.
Wait, why did you quote me? I was talking about Sakurai's quote in my post.
 

SOLDIER

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,683
Have you seen the way gamers reacted when Tifa’s outfit got changed to be less sexualized?

people on gaming forums everywhere, here included, would cry censorship.
This Mai situation seems to be an inverse of the Tifa one.

The changes made to Tifa were pragmatic and "necessary", because it was the developers emphasizing the importance of the character beyond her physical appearance. If anyone was following her appearances beyond the original game they would have already seen this "course correction" take shape, from Advent Children to Kingdom Hearts and onward. Square Enix wisely acknowledged that Tifa's main traits and appeal as a character go beyond her physical appearance, and they struck a perfect balance imo. The angry gamer crowd, as loud and obnoxious as they're being, represent an extremely small minority in the grand scheme of things.

With the decision to leave Mai out of Smash, it feels like the exact opposite sentiment: it's an open acknowledgement that Mai's jiggling jubblies are the defining traits of the character, and to scale back that sexiness even a little to meet CERO practices would have gotten more angry responses from fans than placating them. Basically "I'd rather have nothing."

Correct me if I'm wrong, with respect to anyone who legitimately likes the character beyond sex appeal, it's always looked to me that Mai truly is a character marketed for her massive bouncing breasts and flirtatious demeanor with no other defining character traits. Even her consistent story motivation seems to be nothing more than wanting Andy to crush her puss. Subsequent appearances just seem to pile on the T&A more and more, which makes her a really unique outlier where other characters like Lara Croft scaled back from the sex-oriented marketing. Basically, Mai is a borderline hentai character and SNK and the fanbase seem perfectly content with that.

It's honestly not a surprise at all that they couldn't make her work in Smash, even as a cameo.

i don't why you guys kept citing Chun-Li but she's just 'thick thigh' lady and that's about it, nothing too sleazy (SFV alt costume notwithstanding) but Mai's outfit is literally stripper level........with DoA level of boob bouncing (no surprise she guest starred over there).
The exception being Street Fighter V, where Chun's honkers are so massive that the current iteration of the DoA ladies look modest by comparison.
 

Funyarinpa

Self-requested temporary ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,939
I took the Sakurai quote in that tweet as saying ending up seeing someone's panties in a fight is not inherently sexual.

(And while it doesn't mean sexualization cannot ever be wrong or a concern, in a vacuum I agree with the idea that inclusion of guns is more extreme content as well.)
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,985
Brazil
Sakurai straight up says* in tweet above that CERO hit them up immediately about panty shots regarding characters with skirts in the past

Everyone Else In Thread: ok but what about this character that shows skin (but doesn't show panty shots)

Even the versions of mai without panty shots would panty shots =P
 

Iori Loco

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,121
I took the Sakurai quote in that tweet as saying ending up seeing someone's panties in a fight is not inherently sexual.

(And while it doesn't mean sexualization cannot ever be wrong or a concern, in a vacuum I agree with the idea that inclusion of guns is more extreme content as well.)
Yeah, like, some dudes are going on on how, if it wasn't for the CERO rating board, he would go all crazy and make sexier characters for the sake of it, but look at Peach in Melee where she wasn't wearing anything particularly provocative under her dress, or even the Kid Icarus Uprising ladies, even characters like Phosphora or Pandora weren't designed with full on sexualization in mind.
 

SolVanderlyn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,010
CERO: Would you allow us to see the Mai model upside down.

SNK and Sakurai:



It wasn't too widespread but it did happen enough that clarification was needed.



I found this picture at that link and couldn't stop laughing for a minute.

Some people, man.
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
236
Germany
Dragon Quest XI is rated Cero A (it has to meet that rating due to "tradition") despite more severe sex jokes than most SNK games and with a similar amount bouncing boobs and skin. So I find his comment hard to believe.
Mai is a sexist caricature on the other hand and always was. Sakurai did the right thing and Bayonetta is desexualized in her Smash appearances for anyone that cares.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,024
Dragon Quest XI is rated Cero A (it has to meet that rating due to "tradition") despite more severe sex jokes than most SNK games and with a similar amount bouncing boobs and skin. So I find his comment hard to believe.
Mai is a sexist caricature on the other hand and always was. Sakurai did the right thing and Bayonetta is desexualized in her Smash appearances for anyone that cares.
There is different criteria with how that sort of thing is interacted with though. Like the outfits are fairly static even if they show skin, you can’t really manipulate the camera to see under their dress, and more importantly the boobinos are not constantly swaying at every waking moment.
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
236
Germany
SinCItyAssassin Her "boobinos" wouldn't even need to swing at all if she stood in the background or was a card, which is what we are talking about. No one ever considered her as a playable SNK representative either. Like seriously. She skipped multiple SNK fighters since her debut.
You could also change how her model worked if she truly took that spot, they literally did with Bayonetta.