• The GiftBot 2.0 Launch Giveaway Extravaganza has come to a close with an astounding 8073 games given away to the community by 696 members, a huge success thanks to you! The gifting now continues with more official prizes in the new Gaming Giveaways |OT|. Leftover Steam codes are also being given away to the PC Gaming Era community.

[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)

Exotoro

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,482
So, here is the current text of the petition I am sending:

We have 23 signatures so far, which is awesome. I will wait another hour in case anyone else wants to sign, and send this out at 1:30AM EDT (#:30 your local equivalent time). The response has been overwhelming, so please let me know if I somehow missed your name. Or added your name by mistake, lol.
put me on this list
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,193
Like, even putting Erica aside (which absolutely shouldn't be, but putting that whole discussion aside regardless) the spoilers regarding Rin sound 100%, unambiguously transphobic regardless. Like, regardless of if Rin can actually be considered transgender, the whole Rin turning out to have a penis and Vincent being shocked 100% embodies transgender "trap" stereotypes, that transgender individuals are trying to hide what they "really" are and trick people into having sex with them unaware, and that's exactly the kind of stuff that gets transgender individuals killed and leads to them killing suicide each and every day, those kind of stereotypes and that kind of imagery. No one who's transgender actually does that stuff, tries to trick people like that. They're more afraid of that possibility than anyone, that someone might feel deceived in any way and fear for what would happen to them in that kind of situation. It's just not a thing.

And that's why it's not just Vincent's reaction to that scene that's a problem: it's the fact that a scene like that is even in the game, because that's not a thing that actually happens, and it only ever comes up in transphobic nonsense and anti-trans propaganda and argument in the first place. So it's not just Vincent reacting that way that's a problem, the fact that there's even a scene like that in the first place is a huge issue and is the embodiment of anti-transgender gibberish.

And for the game to use that kind of imagery for Rin, regardless of if that character can be considered transgender or not, it's clearly invoking the imagery of the "trap" and that's not cool at all, 'cause "traps" aren't real and no one would do that, and just perpetuating those kind of images and stereotypes, that that's a thing, can only hurt transgender individuals and even putting Erica aside, to have a moment like that with Rin is completely unacceptable and makes everything that much worse that the game has these issues in regards to both characters. Especially with the twist of Rin apparently being an alien or whatever, how in any way it could be remotely justified for the character to invoke the image of "the trap" to begin with as that would have so, so, so easily been prevented by just having the character explain what's going on to Vincent to begin with the way actual people do. Instead, having Vincent freak out like he apparently does and in fact be surprised by that "revelation", what's the point of all that if not to be transphobic as fuck? Everything about Rin sounds terrible and over the line, even putting this whole discussion of Erica aside.
 
Last edited:

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,811
people keep mentioning innocent sin, but demons will react negatively to tatsuya and jun's lovers contact, and it's like, maybe having characters be, like, actively repulsed by a gay couple isn't necessarily the best.

but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,552
Some of his shorts are 100%. The bigger stories can be read that way, but more in a metaphor way.

I want you to remember that you are saying for this game to enter a list that includes basically only pedophilia, rape and killing of minorities.

You are opening a whole new category of bannable games that will allow for this list to be huge.

I personally think it is better for games like this to be allowed to be discussed and we ban the assholes who defend it to cut the weeds before it is too late
I am of the opinion that sufficiently hateful games should be on that list without requiring outright depiction of marginalized people being murdered, though?

Or at least a variation of that list where they don’t have OTs/aren’t discussed uncritically.

As things are now, I support it being on the list that exists.
 

Static_Void

Member
Oct 30, 2018
3,286
north of the Dreamlands
I want you to remember that you are saying for this game to enter a list that includes basically only pedophilia, rape and killing of minorities.

You are opening a whole new category of bannable games that will allow for this list to be huge.

I personally think it is better for games like this to be allowed to be discussed and we ban the assholes who defend it to cut the weeds before it is too late
I think what you’re saying is making a lot of sense.

So what would be the other options beside a ban if we want to clearly condemn the situation?

ASaiyan and the others that signed the letter, what do you think?
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,647
It is a great comparison, as it's quite apt. As you guys aren't making a petition for a boycott. But for it to be banned from being discussed.

Which is different, as you could also aply it to Lovecraft, as his fiction is far more vile than this.

So you don't give a fuck about his. Extreme racism, anti-Semitism and overall bigotry. Gotcha.

His fiction as an extension of his vile attitudes. And wouldn't exist without them.

See, even as vile as he was. I still wouldn't want him banned from here.

I 100% agree with every part of your post.❤

And we should defo make a thread based on your idea.
The entire point of ResetEra banning games from discussion is so that the games aren't being advertised by the discussion. It's not a boycott, but it serves the same purpose. It is a refusal to support a product, such as those that sexualize children.

You trying to treat people as racists or anti-semites because you don't understand that suggests to me that either you're disingenuous or you're an idiot.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,455
I know it may be uncomfortable for people to consider ERA banning discussion of this game, but think about how more uncomfortable this makes trans people. I honestly think a forum as big as ERA taking a stand and at least not having an OT for the game would bring this issue a lot of attention.
 

Bluewind098

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,824
Honestly I'm finding it hard to even believe that this problem would be limited to Hashino.

His games were successful and will likely be used as the model from here on out.
Yeah sure cause Persona was really successful because of it's homophobic, and transphobic undertones.

Listen yeah I agree Hashino has been fucking up tremendously with this stuff and I won't be sad if Atlus lets him off but his games were still fantastic games and could still have multiple elements adopted without being homophobic/transphobic. If anything that's what makes these moments so frustrating because they are great games otherwise and don't need to be there.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,418
Canada
Hmm so I could see maybe Atlus USA actually putting a number to that "Several Years Later" bit to REALLY imply V+C getting hitched was before transitioning; or have the convo with Toby run with "Man I wanna meet an angel like that" and Erik slip "I wanna tell you something about that" (not that there aren't glaring holes there). The game threw shade at Erika in the first game, so the platform they're on is already super shakey for however they talk about trans issues here (I feel like Rin being "alien" kinda has its own baggage if you read into it).

If they were gonna give a complicated topic brought up in a 1 minute animated epilogue (and only two lines surrounding said topic) they shouldn't have bothered with "Erik" at all.

Blah. What an ugly situation.
 
Last edited:

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
I think what you’re saying is making a lot of sense.

So what would be the other options beside a ban if we want to clearly condemn the situation?

ASaiyan and the others that signed the letter, what do you think?
Frankly I am willing to swallow the hard pill and expand the definition of what is "bannable". I've called for certain games/creators to be banned for far less than this (though I've never encountered something so bad as to want to make a formal mass petition until today). That's just me though.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,327
Persona 2 which allows you to have a gay romance option

Also the other SMT games don’t have this issue or at least as blatant.

Hashino’s games are the only ones with this issue but because they are often their most popular games it reflects really badly on them even if it isn’t as huge a company issue as it may seem
Well Hashino didn't work on Persona 2 IIRC, so that helps a lot.
 

stump sock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
623
If you're not going to talk about things you find repulsive then you might as well just delete the entirety of etcetera. Pretending bad things don't exist isn't a solution or a good alternative to discussion. If you don't feel like dealing with a topic then don't click on a thread.
 
Era's policy on the game

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,590
Official Staff Communication
We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,012
Brazil
I am of the opinion that sufficiently hateful games should be on that list without requiring outright depiction of marginalized people being murdered, though?

Or at least a variation of that list where they don’t have OTs/aren’t discussed uncritically.

As things are now, I support it being on the list that exists.
I think what you’re saying is making a lot of sense.

So what would be the other options beside a ban if we want to clearly condemn the situation?

ASaiyan and the others that signed the letter, what do you think?
I am 100% in favor of not allowing an OT, but if we ban this game on this ground we have to ban Mario 2 because the manual says the same shit about Birdetta
 

Ashlette

Member
Oct 28, 2017
898
I am sending a formal request to the admins to add Catherine: Full Body to the Era banlist. This is a situation where the game itself is indefensibly riddled with offensive and inexcusable content, and condoning said content in its core messaging; same as Hatred, Omega Labyrinth, or other entries on the list. We cannot give this shit a platform here.

Please quote this post if you would like me to add your name to the message.
Sign me in.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,552
Also, like...

If you want to question whether it’s appropriate to ban a game (which is entirely a request from posters and quite possibly won’t happen), maybe don’t start by concern trolling about Lovecraft.

Because I do not think it would be acceptable at all to talk about what he wrote uncritically, no.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,359
I think what you’re saying is making a lot of sense.

So what would be the other options beside a ban if we want to clearly condemn the situation?

ASaiyan and the others that signed the letter, what do you think?
This game is just poison, we pretty much have to either put in on the banlist ot allow it to be posted as is. There really isn't a middle ground. If someone wants to make a thread condemning the game, they should be allowed, But we don't need people discussing the games merits or putting it on a pedestal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,006
Tampa
I know it may be uncomfortable for people to consider ERA banning discussion of this game, but think about how more uncomfortable this makes trans people. I honestly think a forum as big as ERA taking a stand and at least not having an OT for the game would bring this issue a lot of attention.
::looks at Twitter::

This shit is actually trigger, in the proper sense of that word, trans folk and they are not happy about it.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,419
I know it may be uncomfortable for people to consider ERA banning discussion of this game, but think about how more uncomfortable this makes trans people. I honestly think a forum as big as ERA taking a stand and at least not having an OT for the game would bring this issue a lot of attention.
To do that would mean they would have to care about our feelings over being able to talk about a video game and THEY CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN THEY.
 

Lord Vatek

Avenger
Jan 18, 2018
6,702
Yeah sure cause Persona was really successful because of it's homophobic, and transphobic undertones.

Listen yeah I agree Hashino has been fucking up tremendously with this stuff and I won't be sad if Atlus lets him off but his games were still fantastic games and could still have multiple elements adopted without being homophobic/transphobic. If anything that's what makes these moments so frustrating because they are great games otherwise and don't need to be there.
I just meant that whoever replaces him might just end up thinking "Hey people didn't care. They bought the games anyway" and continue spreading the hateful rhetoric through those same "jokes".
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,732
If you're not going to talk about things you find repulsive then you might as well just delete the entirety of etcetera. Pretending bad things don't exist isn't a solution or a good alternative to discussion. If you don't feel like dealing with a topic then don't click on a thread.
There is already a ban on repulsive games. Try again. Transphobia just isn't included at the moment.
 

Kaz Mk II

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,376
I wanna wait for the ending/game upload before I make any snap judgement, as skimming through the the thread of accounts/interpretations there already seems to be debate as to where this ending fits in time as it may as well have occurred before her transition (especially if she implies to Toby that his ideal woman is "closer than he thinks").

The creators may simply have wanted to show Erica pre transition in game. Though I could be giving them too much credit as she wasn't treated all that well in the first game. But the narrative of "Catherine goes back in time to give Vincent and everyone a better life meaning Eric stays Eric for some reason even though Erica was fine being Erica" doesn't sound right to me.

The fact that people are already discussing banning discussion of the game before the actual thing is even posted online yet (to my knowledge) is pretty honestly laughable.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,054
New York
Official Staff Communication
We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior.
I feel this is the correct call.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
I know it may be uncomfortable for people to consider ERA banning discussion of this game, but think about how more uncomfortable this makes trans people. I honestly think a forum as big as ERA taking a stand and at least not having an OT for the game would bring this issue a lot of attention.
I'd be down for a limited ban. I just don't want all discussion shut down when it can be used as a learning tool. I want people to know how and why it's harmful. But I also don't want to do this at the expense of trans users. Ultimately, I want whatever benefits the trans community on Era the best.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,552
If you're not going to talk about things you find repulsive then you might as well just delete the entirety of etcetera. Pretending bad things don't exist isn't a solution or a good alternative to discussion. If you don't feel like dealing with a topic then don't click on a thread.
People aren’t saying to pretend bad things don’t exist.

It’s the opposite. They’re saying not to pretend they don’t have problems.

Kingdom Come should have been on that list, for example. If The Last Night ever comes out, it should be on that list. And so on.
 

MotionBlue

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
739
people keep mentioning innocent sin, but demons will react negatively to tatsuya and jun's lovers contact, and it's like, maybe having characters be, like, actively repulsed by a gay couple isn't necessarily the best.

but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine
This is wierd. 2 Years ago Innocent Sin was praised for its progressive choices. Demons in the Persona and SMT universe are manifestations of the collective unconsciousness. Given the context of that fact, and the games age it makes sense that the Demons might act that way. Portraying something negative is not endorsement of that negative thing. Especially when Persona is all about self actualization and rejection societal expectations.

On the subject of Catherine: Full body, I will wait for more reliable sources and translations.
 
Apr 25, 2018
438
I really truly believed that the main thing they would address in this game was to fix the transphobic elements of the game, erasing the huge black mark against the game

But I guess not. What is going on now in terms of the translation? Some people are viewing it a different way ?
 

Bluewind098

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,824
I just meant that whoever replaces him might just end up thinking "Hey people didn't care. They bought the games anyway" and continue spreading the hateful rhetoric through those same "jokes".
If this got enough traction to the point that Hashimoto had to leave then no. No one is going to attempt to do that again especially when other developers under Atlus have never done anything like this.

Hashino’s games are beloved in spite of their offensive handlings of the LGBT community not because of it
 

Ricelord

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,682
i have an feeling if they do port persona 5 to switch, Atlus gonna do something fucked up for no reason.
 

Aigis

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,973
[STAFF]We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior. [/STAFF]
I think this is the best approach overall
 

Zeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,161
people keep mentioning innocent sin, but demons will react negatively to tatsuya and jun's lovers contact, and it's like, maybe having characters be, like, actively repulsed by a gay couple isn't necessarily the best.

but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine
My memory's a bit fuzzy on the npc, but I also remember a townperson that had writing that came off somewhat transphobic to me. It was a woman who seemed to have stereotypical 'I don't need no man' writing, and then she ends up getting a dick due to rumors.....I forgot exactly where the writing for it goes, but I remember thinking it seemed pretty offensive (Other people who played P2 might remember better).
 

stump sock

Member
Oct 25, 2017
623
People aren’t saying to pretend bad things don’t exist.

It’s the opposite. They’re saying not to pretend they don’t have problems.

Kingdom Come should have been on that list, for example. If The Last Night ever comes out, it should be on that list. And so on.
Banning discussion is also banning condemnation of said content and that's stupid. Mods have already said that supporting transphobia is off the table. So why take away voices that have things to say against it?
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,732
[STAFF]We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior. [/STAFF]
I ultimately think this is ok, more attention needs to be brought on how shit Atlus is to LGBT people.
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,664
We should do a second petition, one that requires larger discussions of the game to be prefaced with the context it needs. Something like an easily available staff note that addresses the issues that concerns LGBTQera.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,418
Canada
There is already a ban on repulsive games. Try again. Transphobia just isn't included at the moment.
If someone does try pulling that shit here, I find mods will quickly shut the person down.

We SHOULD talk about these things, having ongoing dialogue helps and not enough people engage with trans-related conversations or know enough about it. The games with "provocative minors" are (ideally) an easy genre[?] to immediately disregard; but this can provide valuable and nuanced discourse to those less in the know.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
[STAFF]We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior. [/STAFF]
I see. I have to say I disagree with this decision. But I appreciate that the staff took the time to hear our petition and make a formal response on the issue. And I am glad to see the notice added straight to the top of the OT.

Since staff have seen and responded to our request, I will call the signature drive closed. Thank you to everyone who co-signed the petition with me.
 

Phokal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
77
WI
I am sending a formal request to the admins to add Catherine: Full Body to the Era banlist. This is a situation where the game itself is indefensibly riddled with offensive and inexcusable content, and condoning said content in its core messaging; same as Hatred, Omega Labyrinth, or other entries on the list. We cannot give this shit a platform here.

Please quote this post if you would like me to add your name to the message.
Yea, despite worries about mistranslation, this looks bad enough that it should need to prove itself to be un-banned, not the other way around.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,552
I really truly believed that the main thing they would address in this game was to fix the transphobic elements of the game, erasing the huge black mark against the game

But I guess not. What is going on now in terms of the translation? Some people are viewing it a different way ?
At best, Erica implies she still sees herself as a girl. But that line is a punchline to Toby saying he wants a girl like Catherine, so...

There is also a question of when this scene is set, because (and I hadn’t remembered this so I really appreciate people focusing on it) Toby is much younger than the rest of the group, so despite the vague timing he’s around so it’s questionable why Erica hasn’t transitioned.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,012
Brazil
[STAFF]We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior. [/STAFF]
I am happy that is you that posted this

This game is just poison, we pretty much have to either put in on the banlist ot allow it to be posted as is. There really isn't a middle ground. If someone wants to make a thread condemning the game, they should be allowed, But we don't need people discussing the games merits or putting it on a pedestal.
This is not allowed if the game is in the banned list
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,468
[STAFF]We've received a request to have this game banned and added to the prohibited games list. The team has discussed this, and our conclusion is that banning the game would inadvertently serve to sweep this issue under the rug, when it should really be brought to light and exposed.

However, please keep in mind that the contents described here are so blatantly offensive that defense of them, or any dismissal of relevant criticism, will be met with bans.

A staff message has also been added to the OT with clearly outlined rules and expectations of behavior. [/STAFF]
Thank you.

We should do a second petition, one that requires larger discussions of the game to be prefaced with the context it needs. Something like an easily available staff note that addresses the issues that concerns LGBTQera.
I agree with this. I'm tired of Hashino's games getting a pass.

people keep mentioning innocent sin, but demons will react negatively to tatsuya and jun's lovers contact, and it's like, maybe having characters be, like, actively repulsed by a gay couple isn't necessarily the best.

but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine
I'd say a much bigger issue is the "weird man" NPC in...one of the weapons shops? Her dialogue is all jokes about getting a vagina and wanting to show it off in public.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,552
I mean, the ban list rule is not some unchangeable rule written by some uncontactable god.

We could easily have a second list of games where defending/advertising is banned but criticism/critical discussion is not.

I don’t think we were trying to say “nobody should be allowed to talk about how transphobic this is”.
 

Deleted member 1041

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,725
So, here is the current text of the petition I am sending:

We have 23 signatures so far, which is awesome. I will wait another hour in case anyone else wants to sign, and send this out at 1:30AM EDT (#:30 your local equivalent time). The response has been overwhelming, so please let me know if I somehow missed your name. Or added your name by mistake, lol.

EDIT: The staff have received and made a formal response to our petition. Please see Morrigan's post. I will not be collecting further signatures, though I thank those who signed with me.
I'll sign
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,067
Another trans woman chiming in thinking that not banning discourse on it is the right call. Nothing but benefit to raising a firestorm over this hatred.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
4,728
I agree with that decision from the mods, I was a little unsure on it being banned outright after the conflicting reports about the Erika stuff. The Rin stuff still sounds undeniably awful, though.

I'll be interested in seeing if it still finds a competitive scene, if it really is awful throughout then I imagine event organizers will be petitioned against showing it. Same goes for the games pre-release presence at events like E3.

I'd also suggest people keep an eye out for it in PSN sales threads etc., I think it'd be fair to call for it being removed from the spotlight in those
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,258
That was the right call, mods.

Not being able to talk about something doesn't make it go away. We need to talk about this and make the world a better place for the LGBT community.
 

Alfredo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
427
I always thought the story in Catherine was garbage, but I didn't think Erica was that problematic in the original (probably because I wasn't very informed on what transphobia actually was back then). But this, even by those standards, is freaking awful. I wonder how Atlus USA is going to handle this...