OP
OP
I"ve been trying to find more concrete information on it myself, I'm not 100% sure if my understanding was correct now. I can't read Japanese myself.
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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
Rin reaches out to touch Vincent and he slaps her hand away, its not an angry moment
Dumpster Fire Evolution
Think it's fair to say Atlus doesn't really deserve support unless they're going to do something about Hashino. Preferably firing him (I know this won't happen, but it's amazing they can keep a person who supports such blatant transphobia).
Think it's fair to say Atlus doesn't really deserve support unless they're going to do something about Hashino. Preferably firing him (I know this won't happen, but it's amazing they can keep a person who supports such blatant transphobia).
In games like this, Mario accepting her is way more important than her sisters because he is "the voice of reason" of the game. Like how Death seeing Wanda as a woman works in Sandman to end any doubt to where Neil stands
Thank you for the insight. This is a really bad situation for Atlus USA and the trans folk that enjoy the original Catherine.
free money for little effort. it was atlus best selling game before persona 5 after all.
I'm pretty ignorant about what Atlus releases, but a lot of you have been very supportive of their games, yet I read that this transphobic kind of content isn't new for them. Why have people been supporting Atlus if this is the case?
You're more or less right - but the inclusion of it all really fucking sucks. Especially given the actual context of where Rin and Vincent's story is at that point (which already feels weird and forced, but that's just a bad writing issue.) Displaying Vincent being instinctively and naturally violent towards a trans woman for "deceiving" him isn't excused by a visible slap on the wrist (pun not intended) in game when the game also goes out of its way to be violent against the other trans woman character.
The vast majority of people are apathetic at best about trans issues. ResetEra is not an exception (something made extremely obvious by... basically any thread that has to do with trans issues).
I mean, Persona 5 is full of sexist bullshit and you have no shortage of people who will trip over themselves to defend it even here. This is completely unsurprising.
Oh my god. :/ yo fuck atlus. I can't support this release at all. They're really pushing me to not buy a thing from them anymore until they adresss this as a developer internally and stop this.
Either because they believe that Atlus will improve. (Like I did when I bought Persona 5) or they believe that the quality of the games outweighs the sexism, transphobia, and homophobia. Also most people just don't give a damn.
The weird thing is that I thought Lala, as incidental as she was, was fairly sympathetic in P5. So like... What happened??? Or was she just supposed to be a drag queen and not a trans woman? Hrrmmng... Regardless it seems like the "haha gay" joke couple were more the direction...
I'm happy to hear USA branch is trying their best but given the art that seems a pretty hard thing to patch up without drastic changes.
oof that spoiler. Seems I heard wrong about how Rin was handled.
I'm happy to hear USA branch is trying their best but given the art that seems a pretty hard thing to patch up without drastic changes.
Oh incredibly understandable. Just know you can jump into any individual Fate series or game without knowledge of the rest.
True true!
The worst thing about criticizing Japanese media is non-Japanese people shrugging their shoulders and saying "That's just their culture, we shouldn't force our views on them" as if there aren't people in Japan fighting against this shit. I suppose it makes it easier to not care that way.
The same reason anyone continues to stomach this kind of content in things they genuinely love. Eventually it just bubbles over and you can't continue supporting it.
I don't think it was this bad in past games, and it's been growing on me bit by bit, but no more.
I just want them to give me SMT5 at this point so i can be done with them because I am def not trusting the Persona series unless they pull a 2, cast and theme wise.
It's like a never ending downward spiral with Atlus when it comes to this kind of stuff. I doubt they'll ever improve themselves so all I can say is that they can go fuck off all the way to the moon for all I care.
I'm interested in reading up on this. Would you mind sharing some links to those communities and discussions?
Typically they've never been as bad as this. The other times were just dumb fumbles from like 10 years ago when this was less offensive. P5 was the worst when they had a really crass gay couple act as minor gag characters.
This was also buried under well beloved 80 hour games so while some people would be more bothered they often were never the focus. Where Full Body fucks up is putting even more attention on it and going even harder then the other times.
With that said I don't agree with Atlus as a whole being the problem because this has mainly been in Hashino's games and the other games namely the mainline Shin Megami Tensei games were never this bad about it and once upon a time Persona even had really progressive values about this considering P2 had a queer character that you can choose as a romantic option.
Much like Final Fantasy isn't going to ever go back to Amano or FFVI, Persona is never going back to 2 or Kaneko.
Add me to the list saying this one's gotta go. Atlus has been given a free pass for their homophobic/transphobic content for too long, and repeating the de-transitioning message again only shows that the company is concrete in their views. There is no room for them here.
For the record I think this move by Atlus is despicable but think putting the game on a banlist is only gonna be counterproductive for the people affected by it.
Yeah. I think up to a certain point, you acknowledge that lots of video games, movies, books, etc. that you enjoy have problematic elements in them, and that their existence doesn't necessarily negate your enjoyment, nor does your enjoyment negate those problems. But to me, in this particular case, you have a work whose meaning has been specifically altered to be MORE transphobic, and at some point it becomes very difficult or impossible to forgive in order to salvage the parts of the work you do enjoy.
I absolutely do not think this will be buried, thankfully.
On Twitter this is already getting widely condemned by people in the same circles as the journalists that would write about this; it's not slipping under the radar. If they haven't seen it yet, they definitely will in the morning. Even if you don't see articles till Tuesday, I bet you'll see them.
Thank you for reminding people! Though it might be a lost cause by now- I've seen the tweets linked on Twitter by people with a large audience discussing it, which feels irresponsible. I really hope that user doesn't wake up to a ton of shit.
Just got this ending, if anyone wants a summary of it, here:
It's not stated why Erica doesn't transition in this end - but it isn't clear how many years have passed between high-school and their wedding, and it is possible that it simply takes place before she transitioned (Edit: Tobby didn't know Erica pre-transition). The rumor about Catherine trying to improve Erica's life and doing so by stopping her from transitioning is false. Nor does Erica "come out as a gay man" in this end. Separate to this ending, I noticed that the line where Vincent tells Erica that she "wouldn't be allowed to become a female pro-wrestler" is gone in this version of the game. The conversation where she says she wants to still happens, but they removed that line. (Edit: Turns out this line was likely removed because in Rin's ending, Erica actually does become a female pro-wrestler.)
After beating Mutton, Vincent meets with Catherine and tells her that he wishes they could have met differently, and that he doesn't care about her past - and loves her. Catherine says she feels the same way, and opens a portal. Vincent wakes up in his high school days, with Jonny, Orlando and pre-transition Erica asking why he fell asleep. Paul, the character who is mentioned to have died at the start of the game is present too. Paul tells them that a new student has transferred, and Catherine walks into the classroom, taking a seat next to Vincent. The two of them start dating and several years later get married. At the reception, Tobby expresses his jealously at not being able to find such a girl like that, with Erica saying that there might be one closer than he thinks. Orlando then looks toward Katherine and Paul, and tells the two of them to hurry up and get married too. Catherine asks Vincent if he's happy, and he says that he feels like the world totally changed when they met and that he owes everything about who is now to her. He tells her that he loves her, and they kiss. Catherine says that no matter what, she will make sure he's happy for eternity. Then the game ends.
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apathy is the death of empathy.
As an aside. I fucking despise the whole "That's just their culture, we shouldn't force our views on them" shit.
Yep. We just went through a whole thread of this nonsense in the DoA thread, too.
Nah I think this will change something in Atlus. This is the worst it's ever been and is going to get a massive backlash that they have to take notice especially if Full Body ends up selling poorly.
They've gotten away with it being small time before but this is legitimately indefensible and shows a more deep rooted issue withing Hashino's games that need to be weeded out
]
Wait a sec
It's almost incredible Altus made the trans issues from the original game a 100x worse. @_@
Wait a sec
Does this mean the game can end with a gay marriage, or am I not reading that right?
Talk about a tiny step forward
Talk about a tiny step forward
It's almost incredible Altus made the trans issues from the original game a 100x worse. @_@
Persona 4 came out in 2008, and it was one of the first higher profile JRPGs to actively try to discuss LGBT issues, even if it just barely grazed them in retrospect. Persona 5 is where the cracks started to show, but it was in development for a long time; the world has progressed a lot even since 2013.
Full Body, meanwhile, presumably started development in 2018 and had the perfect opportunity to fix certain things that were problematic in the original, but instead it went even more backwards. A lot of people have just lost faith, at least in the lead director/producer Hashino.
It'll be interesting to see if Persona 5 R makes similar mistakes since that's in a similar situation, timeline-wise.
Personally I just find it infuriating because Persona in particular does a lot of things right with certain characters, and the setting feels very unique even if people are quick to call school RPGs generic now for some reason. They should be so much better.
They don't care. The western market is an afterthought to them.
I haven't played Catherine, but I love the Persona games. I've been trying to tolerate this long enough, but this just pushed me over the edge. It's so frustrating that this persists. Even when Nintendo fucks up like the conversion therapy storyline in Fire Emblem, at least the American branch tries to fix it in the translation. This is... I don't know. Maybe with Hoshino stepping down things will improve.
My limited understanding - I haven't played too many Atlus games either - is that it's less an issue of Atlus is out and out terrible, and more a matter that Atlus is out and out terrible about this. That is, they've shown that they're capable of being thoughtful about other issues and that gets them praise, but the more they mess up on LGBT issues this the harder it is to give them the benefit of the doubt about it.
I'm not doubting you or anything but do you have any proof of this? Another poster who has played the game in this very thread has stated that what the OP describes absolutely does happen.
Would have been real dumb to keep that in an era when we have ASUKA kicking ass in Japan.
Honestly, we don't know why we supporting the compamy. Probably because we're normally love their products without realizing it?
Even if it's mainly limited to the doing of one of their creator, Atlus as a company stay accountable for the actions of their employees and for the games they are releasing.
So, here is the current text of the petition I am sending:
EDIT: The staff have received and made a formal response to our petition. Please see Morrigan's post. I will not be collecting further signatures, though I thank those who signed with me.
We have 23 signatures so far, which is awesome. I will wait another hour in case anyone else wants to sign, and send this out at 1:30AM EDT (#:30 your local equivalent time). The response has been overwhelming, so please let me know if I somehow missed your name. Or added your name by mistake, lol.
EDIT: The staff have received and made a formal response to our petition. Please see Morrigan's post. I will not be collecting further signatures, though I thank those who signed with me.
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Someone in the OT posted a link to footage of it, but there's commentary:
https://www.reddit.com/r/GamerGhazi/comments/aqnqx5/erica_in_catherine_full_body_spoilers/
I'd love to provide non-commentated footage, but the share button's disabled in the second half of the game.
You know, I was dreading how this "Definite Edition" of the game was going to tackle some of the new characters and some of it's subject matter, but I can't handle this news. Erica was one of my favourite characters in the original, and how they handled her with that stupid alternative ending made me feel ill. Like, fuck off with that shit.
