Jesus fucking christ.... says a lot about the direction of society's movement on these issues. So sad.
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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
Was H.P. Lovecraft's fiction itself racist, or just the man who wrote it?
If the former, yes.
If the latter, then this is a different case to what we are currently discussing. [Though, speaking just for myself, I would still say yes.]
I don't know if its stated out right if shes a crossdresser or trans, But she has a penis and Vincent is shocked at first, but they get married in the true ending. However that's only her human form as she is actually an alien/angel.
When Vincent finds out she has a penis she reaches out to him and he slaps her hand away, to which she cries and runs away, Vincent runs after her to apologize but gets stopped by Katherine at the door.
When Vincent finds out she has a penis she reaches out to him and he slaps her hand away, to which she cries and runs away, Vincent runs after her to apologize but gets stopped by Katherine at the door.
There is none.
Orlando: "So they've gone and got married after all"
Jonathan: "Those two are soulmates, It's just that sort of situation."
Toby: "I'm so Jealous! I wonder if there are any other angels like her left [for me]!"
Erica: "There might be one closer than you think!"
Orlando: Hey, you two should hurry up and get married."
Paul: "Hey now, watch what you're saying..."
Katherine: "Well, about Paul's salary..."
Catherine and Vincent's conversation I can translate if I have a few more minutes, apologies for being slow.
EDIT:
Catherine: Hey Vincent, so, are you happy now?
Vincent: Yeah, I'm happy. Now that I'm with you, my worldview has really changed. It's all thanks to you that I'm the me I am now.
Catherine: Oh, Vincent...
Vincent: I know that I've chosen right, from here I'll change my life and do everything the right way. Catherine, I love you.
Catherine: I love you too, Vincent. No matter what happens, no matter how many times, I'll always be there to make you happy... for eternity.
Jonathan: "Those two are soulmates, It's just that sort of situation."
Toby: "I'm so Jealous! I wonder if there are any other angels like her left [for me]!"
Erica: "There might be one closer than you think!"
Orlando: Hey, you two should hurry up and get married."
Paul: "Hey now, watch what you're saying..."
Katherine: "Well, about Paul's salary..."
Catherine and Vincent's conversation I can translate if I have a few more minutes, apologies for being slow.
EDIT:
Catherine: Hey Vincent, so, are you happy now?
Vincent: Yeah, I'm happy. Now that I'm with you, my worldview has really changed. It's all thanks to you that I'm the me I am now.
Catherine: Oh, Vincent...
Vincent: I know that I've chosen right, from here I'll change my life and do everything the right way. Catherine, I love you.
Catherine: I love you too, Vincent. No matter what happens, no matter how many times, I'll always be there to make you happy... for eternity.
To clarify, there doesn't seem to be anything about Toby meeting them earlier in life in the montage prior to the actual ending either.
Edit: My personal point of view is that this is still bad, I was just trying to be helpful by translating what was there so everyone could understand the context in-scene.
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Thanks for the translation. So yeah. That combined with if they removed some of the more transphobic lines in the game.....I think implies they actually did try to clear the game up of the worse elements and maybe liked the idea of Erica flirting with Toby before she transitions (even if the time gets wonky due to Toby being younger than most of the cast).
Not 100% sure because I'm not quite sure where the 'Rin is an alien' plot point goes, but Rin seems to identify as a crossdressing guy.
Man, Atlus fucked up big time here. Even the people I follow on Twitter who are usually neutral to "people are overreacting" whenever these sorts of backlashes happen are pissed off about this. Personally, I tend to err on the "the devs are from a different culture that has different standards about this shit so we should cut them some slack" side when these controversies happen... but even then this is a little much.
I mean, Atlus *is* the one company who is so out of touch with the rest of the universe on all sorts of other shit that I could believe that they legit didn't know the issues people had with Erica in the original game and thus didn't think about how this would go over... but even if they didn't know, that doesn't really excuse this.
I mean, Atlus *is* the one company who is so out of touch with the rest of the universe on all sorts of other shit that I could believe that they legit didn't know the issues people had with Erica in the original game and thus didn't think about how this would go over... but even if they didn't know, that doesn't really excuse this.
Troy Baker mentioned that the voice direction he went with was that Kanji was gay.
Everyone is wearing the clothes they have in the game except Vincent and Catherine. The sequence is evocative of the Katherine Ending, right down to Toby lamenting that he'll never find someone as great as Vincent's bride and then Erica putting her arm around him.
Troy Baker would have gotten voice direction from Atlus USA who don't actually do the writing of the characters (at least not the original).
I wouldn't agree with a ban. I think with some skill, proper context, and links to resources for trans people and their rights we could reframe the discussion of this games themes to work toward something more positive.
This form of bigotry works in a very sinister manner, since it's so banal. I think it'd be better off being exposed as such. It's not as blatant to the average gamer as a game based around committing mass shootings or sexualized minors. It's too easily ignored.
I seriously never thought they'd sink below their treatment of Erica in future games, but they did it 8 years later with the same fucking game somehow. Like, they actively made the whole thing worse!
Katsura Hashino retire bitch
Edit: Same. This game's gutter trash.
Katsura Hashino retire bitch
Edit: Same. This game's gutter trash.
There's a certain poem he wrote that I guarantee you, 100%, anyone on ResetEra saying unironically that they liked it would catch a ban.
So it seems like they may have just delayed the transition? And how do the other characters react to them trying to "fix" the character?
Way too early to be talking about banning a game when we don't really know the situation other than a random's tweet and now conflicting early players. Besides the fact that we really shouldn't go down the rabbit hole of banning games that have problematic messages since the is a whole slew of them that are popular on this forum. And even more if you include games made by people who tweet bigoted shit.
Way too early to be talking about banning a game when we don't really know the situation other than a random's tweet and now conflicting early players. Besides the fact that we really shouldn't go down the rabbit hole of banning games that have problematic messages since the is a whole slew of them that are popular on this forum. And even more if you include games made by people who tweet bigoted shit.
Tell that to the story direction then, because it's contradictory as fuck once Kanji's dungeon is finished.
I've been boycotting Square Enix for a long time now, not just for that, but for shitty treatment of their workers and a whole list of other things. That said, while I'm happy when others are also willing to make such a commitment, I don't necessarily fault them. If you look, you can find problems with any organization, and it's a question of where your personal lines are in a system that is inherently messed up and only really gives the consumer bad options to choose from. Additionally, at least once, ignorance is a valid excuse. But once you're informed, it ceases to be so.
You're always caught between a rock and a hard place as a consumer. But, erasure of persons is something I find particularly heinous.
Seriously what a bizarre defense some people are trying to pull.
"No no it's not that bad, they just made her a punchline! No big deal".
People can still call it out and point out how awful it is. But we don't need an OT, any LTTP, RTTP threads, or people discussing the game in other threads.
Is Erica staying Eric the true ending then ? What happens to her in the true ending if not ?
Even still, that may be a moot point. It's obvious the author subscribes to a very sex essentialist viewpoint. This is extrapolating, but what Rin identifies as doesn't matter from a sex essentialist view because her "true" gender is alien and doesn't apply to human concepts of sexuality.
I'd like to be in, too. At this point, is there an Atlus game that isn't bigoted towards the LGBT+ community?
I'm probably not gonna get this game unless Atlus USA does some major clean up but I'd be lying though my teeth if I tried to say I'd boycott Atlus as a whole.
But I'm seriously hoping some new blood will start to clean some of this stuff up.
But I'm seriously hoping some new blood will start to clean some of this stuff up.
The whole Eric thing only happens in the new Catherine route ending. She's still Erica in Rin's route.
I do need to point out that I was mistaken on the notion that
Erica is revealed to be a gay man, despite not transitioning in the new ending
Some of his shorts are 100%. The bigger stories can be read that way, but more in a metaphor way.
I want you to remember that you are saying for this game to enter a list that includes basically only pedophilia, rape and killing of minorities.
You are opening a whole new category of bannable games that will allow for this list to be huge.
I personally think it is better for games like this to be allowed to be discussed and we ban the assholes who defend it to cut the weeds before it is too late
Well OT aside as OTs are just advertisements nowadays, the other forms of threads can be useful for discussing issues with the game and keeping public attention on ATLUS's mistakes.
OTs can be good for discussing gameplay, and for something like Catherine: Full Body could be used to coordinate multiplayer matches and such.
Honestly I'm finding it hard to even believe that this problem would be limited to Hashino.
His games were successful and will likely be used as the model from here on out.
His games were successful and will likely be used as the model from here on out.
Persona 2 which allows you to have a gay romance option
Also the other SMT games don't have this issue or at least as blatant.
Hashino's games are the only ones with this issue but because they are often their most popular games it reflects really badly on them even if it isn't as huge a company issue as it may seem
I mean it's really only Hashino and seemingly Studio Zero who have these isssues. Rest of Atlus doesn't seem to be like this.
Yeah, it seems a good number of Hashino's works since Persona 3 have had some crap like this. It's when he became the main and sole director of the series. Project Re Fantasy being one of his projects, I can already imagine the horrible crap that will be in it.
Ladies and gentlement, one of the best JRPG studios.
People keep defending and hand waving this shit, so ATLUS thought that it's okay. Keep doing that, and this will keep happening.
Indeed.
People keep defending and hand waving this shit, so ATLUS thought that it's okay. Keep doing that, and this will keep happening.
The early Persona games and SMT Nocturne are about VERY different things than any modern Persona or even SMT game. Like, it's really difficult to even put them in the same genre. I'd call the former games closer to psychological horror with RPG elements. Or at least a metacommentary on it.
I had (very) small hopes this version would somehow improve things but this is fucking garbage.
I'm going to be apprehensive in supporting any Atlus titles in the future since this is disgusting and p5 and p4 handling of lgbtq already was poor
I'm going to be apprehensive in supporting any Atlus titles in the future since this is disgusting and p5 and p4 handling of lgbtq already was poor
Even within the last decade it seems to be a Hashino/persona team issue. This stuff isn't in any mainline SMT games or spinoff like Devil Survivor (to my knowledge.) Heck, iirc Digital Devil Saga had some queer undertones with Argilla. Nothing progressive, by any means, but it wasn't insulting.
It is a great comparison, as it's quite apt. As you guys aren't making a petition for a boycott. But for it to be banned from being discussed.
Which is different, as you could also aply it to Lovecraft, as his fiction is far more vile than this.
So you don't give a fuck about his. Extreme racism, anti-Semitism and overall bigotry. Gotcha.
His fiction as an extension of his vile attitudes. And wouldn't exist without them.
See, even as vile as he was. I still wouldn't want him banned from here.
I 100% agree with every part of your post.❤️
And we should defo make a thread based on your idea.
Like, even putting Erica aside (which absolutely shouldn't be, but putting that whole discussion aside regardless) the spoilers regarding Rin sound 100%, unambiguously transphobic regardless. Like, regardless of if Rin can actually be considered transgender, the whole Rin turning out to have a penis and Vincent being shocked 100% embodies transgender "trap" stereotypes, that transgender individuals are trying to hide what they "really" are and trick people into having sex with them unaware, and that's exactly the kind of stuff that gets transgender individuals killed and leads to them killing suicide each and every day, those kind of stereotypes and that kind of imagery. No one who's transgender actually does that stuff, tries to trick people like that. They're more afraid of that possibility than anyone, that someone might feel deceived in any way and fear for what would happen to them in that kind of situation. It's just not a thing.
And that's why it's not just Vincent's reaction to that scene that's a problem: it's the fact that a scene like that is even in the game, because that's not a thing that actually happens, and it only ever comes up in transphobic nonsense and anti-trans propaganda and argument in the first place. So it's not just Vincent reacting that way that's a problem, the fact that there's even a scene like that in the first place is a huge issue and is the embodiment of anti-transgender gibberish.
And for the game to use that kind of imagery for Rin, regardless of if that character can be considered transgender or not, it's clearly invoking the imagery of the "trap" and that's not cool at all, 'cause "traps" aren't real and no one would do that, and just perpetuating those kind of images and stereotypes, that that's a thing, can only hurt transgender individuals and even putting Erica aside, to have a moment like that with Rin is completely unacceptable and makes everything that much worse that the game has these issues in regards to both characters. Especially with the twist of Rin apparently being an alien or whatever, how in any way it could be remotely justified for the character to invoke the image of "the trap" to begin with as that would have so, so, so easily been prevented by just having the character explain what's going on to Vincent to begin with the way actual people do. Instead, having Vincent freak out like he apparently does and in fact be surprised by that "revelation", what's the point of all that if not to be transphobic as fuck? Everything about Rin sounds terrible and over the line, even putting this whole discussion of Erica aside.
And that's why it's not just Vincent's reaction to that scene that's a problem: it's the fact that a scene like that is even in the game, because that's not a thing that actually happens, and it only ever comes up in transphobic nonsense and anti-trans propaganda and argument in the first place. So it's not just Vincent reacting that way that's a problem, the fact that there's even a scene like that in the first place is a huge issue and is the embodiment of anti-transgender gibberish.
And for the game to use that kind of imagery for Rin, regardless of if that character can be considered transgender or not, it's clearly invoking the imagery of the "trap" and that's not cool at all, 'cause "traps" aren't real and no one would do that, and just perpetuating those kind of images and stereotypes, that that's a thing, can only hurt transgender individuals and even putting Erica aside, to have a moment like that with Rin is completely unacceptable and makes everything that much worse that the game has these issues in regards to both characters. Especially with the twist of Rin apparently being an alien or whatever, how in any way it could be remotely justified for the character to invoke the image of "the trap" to begin with as that would have so, so, so easily been prevented by just having the character explain what's going on to Vincent to begin with the way actual people do. Instead, having Vincent freak out like he apparently does and in fact be surprised by that "revelation", what's the point of all that if not to be transphobic as fuck? Everything about Rin sounds terrible and over the line, even putting this whole discussion of Erica aside.
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people keep mentioning innocent sin, but demons will react negatively to tatsuya and jun's lovers contact, and it's like, maybe having characters be, like, actively repulsed by a gay couple isn't necessarily the best.
but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine
but i mean it's still like leagues better than what we saw in p4 and p5 and catherine