[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)

[WarMom]

Struggling to really buy that reading what the translation team does is going to sway opinion of the core writing. Anything good that comes of it is going to be praise for the localisation team, not the writing. 'That's a good turd-polishing exercise you did there'. We already have a complete existing text. It's fair game to criticise that text, especially when any 'gotcha' people will come back with to prove it somehow isn't transphobic are tiny details that don't impact the core issue.

Because, bluntly, what can you say or point out that makes what we already have non-problematic? It's little details. Take, for example, the original idea that we are in a timeline that 'makes things better for everyone'. Yeah, that's crummy. Now that has been disproven, and...it's still crummy.

There is no context that you can add that cleans up the Time-Travel Wedding scene in a way that isn't, at least, grossly disrespectful. Nobody beyond Catherine and Erica have big Butterfly Effect changes applied to them. An active decision was made to have Erica specifically affected, so a cis audience could voyeuristically see Erica pre-transition.

You can point out nuances of translation or what the localisation team will do, about how Erica knows she's trans and is just delaying it, but the answer is so bloody what when, at the end of it all, the ending throws Erica in front of us for laughs.

You can't Context your way out of that.

 

[Deleted member 49179]

"But once you recognize the secret reason for the transphobia, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds."

Click to shrink...

omg this is so perfect!

And a great analogy to what's going on, unfortunately.

 

[Bradford]

Alright, following up on my last post, I've translated the entirety of Rin's true ending. I translated it as literally as possible when necessary, though obviously I could have gotten some things wrong. While this does not fix the problems with the game itself, I encourage individuals to watch the true ending here as it seems to be unambiguously the happiest ending for everyone in the cast.

Here's the video link (untranslated)
Here's the Transcript on Pastebin

Spoiler: Relevant Information on Erica and Rin

The aliens refer to Rin using male pronouns, as does Trisha, and call Rin "little brother". In this Ending it's also revealed that Erica is joining Women's Pro Wrestling with Toby's help, and it seems as though they are dating.

Spoiler: Translation

Now you all know why it's taking me ages to translate moonlight syndrome. It took me nearly an hour to translate 11 minutes of voiced, subtitled dialogue.

 

[Icemonk191]

Struggling to really buy that reading what the translation team does is going to sway opinion of the core writing. Anything good that comes of it is going to be praise for the localisation team, not the writing. 'That's a good turd-polishing exercise you did there'. We already have a complete existing text. It's fair game to criticise that text, especially when any 'gotcha' people will come back with to prove it somehow isn't transphobic are tiny details that don't impact the core issue.

Because, bluntly, what can you say or point out that makes what we already have non-problematic? It's little details. Take, for example, the original idea that we are in a timeline that 'makes things better for everyone'. Yeah, that's crummy. Now that has been disproven, and...it's still crummy.

There is no context that you can add that cleans up the Time-Travel Wedding scene in a way that isn't, at least, grossly disrespectful. Nobody beyond Catherine and Erica have big Butterfly Effect changes applied to them. An active decision was made to have Erica specifically affected, so a cis audience could voyeuristically see Erica pre-transition.

You can point out nuances of translation or what the localisation team will do, about how Erica knows she's trans and is just delaying it, but the answer is so bloody what when, at the end of it all, the ending throws Erica in front of us for laughs.

You can't Context your way out of that.

Click to shrink...

I just want to say that this is a great post that completely blows the "You're taking it out of context!" argument out of the water! Thank you.

 

[PaperSparrow]

Look, it's nice that Atlus USA is apparently doing their damndest to febreeze it, but that doesn't change the fact Atlus JP wrote transphobic garbage.

It feels like people are looking for the quickest way to absolve themselves of guilt when they buy the localization. It doesn't matter if they animate a completely new cutscene and have award-winning writing, if Atlus JP doesn't acknowledge there is a problem, they will do this again.

 

[Fandabidozi]

Nice. What game is this? I'm sold.

 

[Massicot]

Nice. What game is this? I'm sold.

Click to shrink...

Catherine: Full Body. It's in the topic title, the first line of the opening post, and the first words of the first image

 

[Icemonk191]

Nice. What game is this? I'm sold.

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This was your best troll effort? Come on kid you could have done better than that.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Nice. What game is this? I'm sold.

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1 post lol

You could have at least tried.

 

[Luminish]

Struggling to really buy that reading what the translation team does is going to sway opinion of the core writing. Anything good that comes of it is going to be praise for the localisation team, not the writing. 'That's a good turd-polishing exercise you did there'. We already have a complete existing text. It's fair game to criticise that text, especially when any 'gotcha' people will come back with to prove it somehow isn't transphobic are tiny details that don't impact the core issue.

Because, bluntly, what can you say or point out that makes what we already have non-problematic? It's little details. Take, for example, the original idea that we are in a timeline that 'makes things better for everyone'. Yeah, that's crummy. Now that has been disproven, and...it's still crummy.

There is no context that you can add that cleans up the Time-Travel Wedding scene in a way that isn't, at least, grossly disrespectful. Nobody beyond Catherine and Erica have big Butterfly Effect changes applied to them. An active decision was made to have Erica specifically affected, so a cis audience could voyeuristically see Erica pre-transition.

You can point out nuances of translation or what the localisation team will do, about how Erica knows she's trans and is just delaying it, but the answer is so bloody what when, at the end of it all, the ending throws Erica in front of us for laughs.

You can't Context your way out of that.

Click to shrink...

The intensity of the offensiveness is pretty important though. Some of what was in the original game about the character was already pretty offensive, but plenty of trans people still enjoy the characters inclusion, such as in that very tweet that voice actor retweeted. It really is the undoing of the transition in a neutral or positive context that takes it way over the line and into "fuck you atlus" territory.

If it was put in an explicitly negative and temporary context it would make it much more acceptable. But I will admit that even if they could somehow pull off that context change, I'm not sure how I would feel about it, knowing how much the original sucks and that everything but the audio is basically the same as the original.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

Alright, following up on my last post, I've translated the entirety of Rin's true ending. I translated it as literally as possible when necessary, though obviously I could have gotten some things wrong. While this does not fix the problems with the game itself, I encourage individuals to watch the true ending here as it seems to be unambiguously the happiest ending for everyone in the cast.

Here's the video link (untranslated)
Here's the Transcript on Pastebin

Spoiler: Relevant Information on Erica and Rin

The aliens refer to Rin using male pronouns, as does Trisha, and call Rin "little brother". In this Ending it's also revealed that Erica is joining Women's Pro Wrestling with Toby's help, and it seems as though they are dating.

Spoiler: Translation

Now you all know why it's taking me ages to translate moonlight syndrome. It took me nearly an hour to translate 11 minutes of voiced, subtitled dialogue.

Click to shrink...

Just watched that whole thing (interesting to hear the live commentary by the Korean chap playing it, like the last video), and man, this game is bonkers.

i quickly skimmed through your translation, too, and it looks pretty solid.

By the way, the Voltaire quote they used was, "Common sense is not so common."

 

[PK Gaming]

"But once you recognize the secret reason for the transphobia, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds."

Click to shrink...

Please don't make Erin out to be some auteur poser

She's a very sincere and honest person. Honest enough to RT anti Atlus tweets and openly talk about the game.

If she feels the localization will make sufficient changes to Erica, im all for it.

(Not going to hold my breath though)

 

[NegativeCero]

That's disappointing. I wasn't planning on buying this just bc of my backlog, but I definitely was interested at some point. They deserve all the negative criticism and media spotlight this brings them. What a mess.

 

[Miller]

Frankly, I don't want the localization to change anything. I want as faithful a representation of the transphobic elements as possible. Stone-washing it in such a way just lets ATLUS off the hook. Western gamers should be able to make their own judgement about the content of Catherine: Full Body. There will be many people who would buy an edited version of Catherine: Full Body that otherwise would not. That's shitty. ATLUS should not be rewarded. Additionally, there are people out there who would avoid an edited version of Catherine: Full Body on the basis of protesting censorship. Those people should be able to vote with their wallet just the same.

I can appreciate the sentiment of not wanting to put more transphobia out into the world. But covering it up only lets transphobic authors have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Bradford]

Just watched that whole thing (interesting to hear the live commentary by the Korean chap playing it, like the last video), and man, this game is bonkers.

i quickly skimmed through your translation, too, and it looks pretty solid.

By the way, the Voltaire quote they used was, "Common sense is not so common."

Click to shrink...

I'm really curious how people feel about this ending. I have the feeling this is what the voice actors were mentioning when they asked people to play the game first.

I don't think it absolves all the problems, but it certainly is... Something.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

I'm really curious how people feel about this ending. I have the feeling this is what the voice actors were mentioning when they asked people to play the game first.

I don't think it absolves all the problems, but it certainly is... Something.

Click to shrink...

As a straight male who also has extensive experience with Japanese culture, this comes off as over the top and bizarre, but not as anything horrendously offensive. Whether or not it's offensive to others is not for me to decide, of course. Do we know if Rin ever self identifies as female in the game?

 

[Alec]

Spoiler

So Erica stays a woman, Toby is dating her, and Vincent is cool with being with an alien with a penis?

Ending seems fine to me.

 

[Arsene no Kiseki]

Spoiler

So Erica stays a woman, Toby is dating her, and Vincent is cool with being with an alien with a penis?

Ending seems fine to me.

Click to shrink...

Thats Rin's True Ending. The problem is in Catherine's New "Best" Ending

 

[PK Gaming]

Frankly, I don't want the localization to change anything. I want as faithful a representation of the transphobic elements as possible. Stone-washing it in such a way just lets ATLUS off the hook. Western gamers should be able to make their own judgement about the content of Catherine: Full Body. There will be many people who would buy an edited version of Catherine: Full Body that otherwise would not. That's shitty. ATLUS should not be rewarded. Additionally, there are people out there who would avoid an edited version of Catherine: Full Body on the basis of protesting censorship. Those people should be able to vote with their wallet just the same.

I can appreciate the sentiment of not wanting to put more transphobia out into the world. But covering it up only lets transphobic authors have their cake and eat it too.

Click to shrink...

AtlusUSA has rarely bothered changed stuff on that front (they didn't even remove the gross gay stereotypes from P5) so I doubt they'll do much here. I can see them requesting that AtlusJP change the ending so that Erica appears as a woman, but I doubt they'll go that far.

As a straight male who also has extensive experience with Japanese culture, this comes off as over the top and bizarre, but not as anything horrendously offensive. Whether or not it's offensive to others is not for me to decide, of course. Do we know if Rin ever self identifies as female in the game?

Click to shrink...

That ending itself is fine. It's the other endings that are the problem.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

That ending itself is fine. It's the other endings that are the problem.

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No, I saw a few posts earlier that were responding to a very sensationalist (although not entirely inaccurate) account of the alien ending and saying it basically dehumanizes various sexual minorities.

 

[PK Gaming]

No, I saw a few posts earlier that were responding to a very sensationalist (although not entirely inaccurate) account of the alien ending and saying it basically dehumanizes various sexual minorities.

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Oh, my apologies

 

[Bradford]

No, I saw a few posts earlier that were responding to a very sensationalist (although not entirely inaccurate) account of the alien ending and saying it basically dehumanizes various sexual minorities.

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The ending is still saying that sexual minorities live in space and are fundamentally different than regular humans -- that was my read and it persists after translating. My point in that is that no matter how happy the ending is for Vincent and Rin, there still are some semantic issues with the framing of the narrative. It celebrates liberation but implies incompatibility with society as a whole. And then it uses alien bodies as a metaphor for sexual minorities and their friends. Whether or not you read this as offensive, YMMV.

That being said, I translated it for the thread specifically because in game it's framed as the happiest ending for the cast. Even against Catherine's new True Ending. It doesn't fix Catherine's true ending's issues at all, it just serves as another point of comparison.

 

[tomahawk]

The ending is still saying that sexual minorities live in space and are fundamentally different than regular humans -- that was my read and it persists after translating.

Click to shrink...

I really don't read it that way. There's another same-sex couple mentioned earlier in the game and they're just humans. I think with Rin they just wanted them to be a character who sees sex as totally meaningless as used the alien/angel thing to get that across.

 

[Deleted member 1635]

The ending is still saying that sexual minorities live in space and are fundamentally different than regular humans --

Click to shrink...

But, like, Erica is still there in the end, fully transitioned, and having come from earth.

 

[Bradford]

But, like, Erica is still there in the end, fully transitioned, and having come from earth.

Click to shrink...

I really don't read it that way. There's another same-sex couple mentioned earlier in the game and they're just humans. I think with Rin they just wanted them to be a character who sees sex as totally meaningless as used the alien/angel thing to get that across.

Click to shrink...

I see what you are saying, but I think there is some more to it. Rin's sex explicitly does matter in the narrative, as it is representational of Rin's 'power to change preconceived notions and unlock new potential'. The 'newly possible way of living' mentioned by Trisha is expressly what we see in the ending. Obviously Vincent remains a human in the end even though he is in a homosexual relationship, but the new society they live in absolutely represents a liberated way of living 'unconcerned with the views of others'.

This isn't necessarily a judgement of the quality of the ending, just observations on its content.

 

[ElBoxy]

The sad part is that they had a perfectly normal love story between Toby and Erica. Every attempt to have Vincent and his friends constantly worry that Toby would find out she is trans was shitty and didn't need to be there. They legit had something but felt the need to quietly ridicule it at every chance.

 

[Platy]

I can say about the quality of the ending

That is some pretty badly drawn characters there =P
Like it looks they were drawn to be show much farther but somehow they zoomed in

 

[Deleted member 51539]

I can say about the quality of the ending

That is some pretty badly drawn characters there =P
Like it looks they were drawn to be show much farther but somehow they zoomed in

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 48434]

So all the issues seem to stem from Hashino, huh? It figures, before he came on the scene, I heard there were some positive depictions of LGBT characters in Persona 2.

The True Rin ending seems kinda cute honestly. I like the thought of Tobey and Erica being in a proper relationship.
But I feel the existence of the new Catherine ending just ruins everything. Fucking Hashino.

 

[Datajoy]

This is what i was trying to explain to you all last night, but you weren't having any of it.

Click to shrink...

Ok

 

[Harry Potter Obama]

Looking over all the ending stuff again I wonder if Altus was honestly trying to be better about LGBT stuff... but clearly doesn't understand it. They think they're being more progressive with the Rin ending (I'm guessing that's the thing they said they couldn't do during the previous game's time's social climate) but don't realize that having a what-if ending with Erica still being untransitioned is offensive. I think what someone said much earlier about them conflating trans people and "okama" is on the nose. They think they're including more LGBT+ stuff, but they don't comprehend that theres a diffidence between L, G, B, T, etc. They kinda tried without understanding what they were trying or what's offensive, if that makes sense. So despite any positive intentions the result ends up being at least as offensive as their previous homophobic jokes.

 

[Shy]

Ok

Click to shrink...

?

 

[Deleted member 2474]

Looking over all the ending stuff again I wonder if Altus was honestly trying to be better about LGBT stuff... but clearly doesn't understand it. They think they're being more progressive with the Rin ending (I'm guessing that's the thing they said they couldn't do during the previous game's time's social climate) but don't realize that having a what-if ending with Erica still being untransitioned is offensive. I think what someone said much earlier about them conflating trans people and "okama" is on the nose. They think they're including more LGBT+ stuff, but they don't comprehend that theres a diffidence between L, G, B, T, etc. They kinda tried without understanding what they were trying or what's offensive, if that makes sense.

Click to shrink...

given the hashino quote you're referencing about "we wanted to do this from the start but society wasn't in the right place at the time", it does strike me as entirely possible that atlus jp thought they were being progressive with including rin as a love interest but are too out-of-touch to not completely fuck it up in all the worst possible ways

 

[Deleted member 19066]

Alright, following up on my last post, I've translated the entirety of Rin's true ending. I translated it as literally as possible when necessary, though obviously I could have gotten some things wrong. While this does not fix the problems with the game itself, I encourage individuals to watch the true ending here as it seems to be unambiguously the happiest ending for everyone in the cast.

Here's the video link (untranslated)
Here's the Transcript on Pastebin

Spoiler: Relevant Information on Erica and Rin

The aliens refer to Rin using male pronouns, as does Trisha, and call Rin "little brother". In this Ending it's also revealed that Erica is joining Women's Pro Wrestling with Toby's help, and it seems as though they are dating.

Spoiler: Translation

Now you all know why it's taking me ages to translate moonlight syndrome. It took me nearly an hour to translate 11 minutes of voiced, subtitled dialogue.

Click to shrink...

You're translating Moonlight Syndrome? Radical.

Edit: I also like how, with the new context, it's offensiveness still fluctuates around or just below the ending of the first Ace Ventura movie.

Rin's True Ending gets an overall rating of "you tried...?"

 

[Aexact]

They think they're being more progressive with the Rin ending (I'm guessing that's the thing they said they couldn't do during the previous game's time's social climate) but don't realize that having a what-if ending with Erica still being untransitioned is offensive.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I think that was the intent as Rin's new path is front and center of Full Body and were probably hoping for the shock value to be the conversation starter around the game. They definitely didn't foresee a side character's fate in one of many endings dominating the conversation.

But yeah, malicious intent or unwitting accident, the offense is still there.

 

[Harry Potter Obama]

given the hashino quote you're referencing about "we wanted to do this from the start but society wasn't in the right place at the time", it does strike me as entirely possible that atlus jp thought they were being progressive with including rin as a love interest but are too out-of-touch to not completely fuck it up in all the worst possible ways

Click to shrink...

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm guessing. I definitely can't discount the very real possibility that all this stuff is out of malicious intent, but I'm leaning towards extreme ignorance and misguided intentions. I worry that they'll see the reaction and just throw there hands up and say "there's no pleasing these people!" And go back to not even trying to improve.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Atlus has been trashed since after they published 3D Dot Hero in the USA

 

[Deleted member 1635]

Yeah that's pretty much what I'm guessing. I definitely can't discount the very real possibility that all this stuff is out of malicious intent, but I'm leaning towards extreme ignorance and misguided intentions. I worry that they'll see the reaction and just throw there hands up and say "there's no pleasing these people!" And go back to not even trying to improve.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure they're going to continue doing their own thing. People have been calling them out and demanding change since Persona 3 and particularly Persona 4.

I read through an interview with Hashino on IGN Japan today about what he wants to do with his upcoming fantasy game and he said he wants to explore themes like, "why do people suffer?" "what brings about conflict?" "where do people's weaknesses and strengths reveal themselves?" without the confines of a modern day setting.

 

[Kyougar]

No, I'm not giving this game a red cent, and no one else here should either.

We can find out on YouTube when it comes out.

Click to shrink...

Correct. I don't take someone's word that it will be "OK" or we will "understand" it if we just buy it blind. And of course, they can't tell us why, because of SPOILERS.

 

[Deleted member 34618]

The localization changing/editing/censoring/whatever the ending wouldn't really accomplish anything other than sweeping the issue under the rug so that Atlus can make more money. It's not like transgenderism is some exclusively western phenomenon and it's okay to be a dickbag about it in Japan.

 

[Deleted member 1698]

Looking over all the ending stuff again I wonder if Altus was honestly trying to be better about LGBT stuff... but clearly doesn't understand it. They think they're being more progressive with the Rin ending (I'm guessing that's the thing they said they couldn't do during the previous game's time's social climate) but don't realize that having a what-if ending with Erica still being untransitioned is offensive. I think what someone said much earlier about them conflating trans people and "okama" is on the nose. They think they're including more LGBT+ stuff, but they don't comprehend that theres a diffidence between L, G, B, T, etc. They kinda tried without understanding what they were trying or what's offensive, if that makes sense. So despite any positive intentions the result ends up being at least as offensive as their previous homophobic jokes.

Click to shrink...

I think it is more than fair to say this after P4. They tried, but either through misunderstanding or some sort of pressure ultimately made a bit of a mess of it. Still, you could draw some positives.

But after P5 and then this? I don't think you can give them the same benefit.

 

[Mr_Nintendont]

So are people just upset because it makes a joke about traps?

Lots of anime does that, it's not really anything new

 

[Deleted member 51539]

So are people just upset because it makes a joke about traps?

Lots of anime does that, it's not really anything new

Click to shrink...

Here comes the ban!

 

[HylianSeven]

So are people just upset because it makes a joke about traps?

Lots of anime does that, it's not really anything new

Click to shrink...

Nice use of transphobia there.

Just because anime does it doesn't make it okay.

 

[Deleted member 51539]

Also since I know you're still here, banned person, probably confirming some bias that you have thinking you were just banned for quoting a silly anime meme that only those in a state of perpetual outrage would be angry at, you should probably take this opportunity to learn why what you said is incredibly offensive. Taking the risk of sounding sanctimonious, it's worth it to keep in mind something that you consider harmless can be hurtful to other people.

I'll make it easy for you, here's a video.

 

[papahefe]

It looks like this article is trying to provide a counter-point to all this. Towards the end, they state that there is nothing shown to suggest that that ending was to "make everyone happy." Is this a case of jumping the gun without all the information, or does this article miss the mark? Thoughts?

[mod edit: link removed]

 

[Kinsei]

It looks like this article is trying to provide a counter-point to all this. Towards the end, they state that there is nothing shown to suggest that that ending was to "make everyone happy." Is this a case of jumping the gun without all the information, or does this article miss the mark? Thoughts?

[mod edit: link removed]

Click to shrink...

Not clicking that link because fuck that site. However in regards to the bit you mentioned, The game never states that, no. It was people inferring based on elements like Paul being alive and with Katherine.

 

[papahefe]

Not clicking that link because fuck that site. However in regards to the bit you mentioned, The game never states that, no. It was people inferring based on elements like Paul being alive and with Katherine.

Click to shrink...

Oh ok, gotcha. I didn't realize that site was an issue, I apologize.

 

[Kinsei]

Oh ok, gotcha. I didn't realize that site was an issue, I apologize.

Click to shrink...

Oh it's fine. There's no need for you to apologize.

 

[AztecComplex]

Spoiler

So Erica stays a woman, Toby is dating her, and Vincent is cool with being with an alien with a penis?

Ending seems fine to me.

Click to shrink...

Wait I'm confused. So Rin is trans then? I thought we had me established she was a minion-like pink alien and the trans speculation died with that reveal. So we were right all along and she is trans then?!