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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
So they made their choice then. Basic respect of all people isnt a big enough deal to them. They deserve to have fingers pointed at them as well.
Rin is an alien with a penis like thing. So she is not even human and I wouldn't consider Rin either.
It doesn't have to spell out "This is a better reality for everyone"
Vincent and Catherine met and lived under better circumstances. The guy who died lives and is a better partner for Katherine. Erica didn't transition.
Those are the main changes I am aware of. The implication is extemely strong Catherine had an active hand in changing those key events. Or saw whatever she changed made Erica not come out. And in that case she should have supported Erica in being herself. And she clearly didn't.
But it's far far more likely their thought was "Look how this trans person is accepting her birth body and is still happy".
Especially since preventing a transition was the main goal for the Naoto dungeon too. If you look at all their games in context they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt here.
Can I ask what's ResetEra's policy on linking youtube videos, if there is one? I've come across someone who's translating the game as he plays through it and he just got to the new Catherine ending. A few choice things going off his translation:
- Catherine doesn't mention anything about creating a better world, not for everyone, not for Vincent. She doesn't even tell Vincent what she's doing. After Vincent says that he wishes they met sooner but he doesn't want to dwell on the past, Catherine says 'It's okay; you have me' and warps them. This is not to excuse the ending, it's still shitty, but as someone pointed out to me above and rightly so, 10kg of shit is a bit worse than 8kg of shit.
- When Vincent is warped back into his past self, he sees pre-transition Erica and internally calls her 'Eric'. His confused tone ('Eric...and Paul?') seems to imply that he's been sent back and retained his 'future' memories. I bring this up because it's kind of ouch that he calls Erica 'Eric' if he has full knowledge of the future but, eh, understandable.
- He skips the Ishtar segment. I've asked him if he could roughly translate it, because that might provide some more context as an omnicient narrator. It might have been from her speech that the 'better world' notion comes about.
- Under his translation, Toby says 'I wonder if there's another girl as angelic as her in the world' to which Erica replies 'there's one right next to you'.
Why does it have to be explicitly mentioned by the characters in order to count though? By going back in time before Paul's death, everyone gets a happy ending. It's clearly subtext as outlined by the post above yours. Nothing in the OP's post implies that this is something Catherine explicitly states but Erica not transitioning is framed as a positive thing. That's fucked up.
"Manufactured Outrage Falsely Claims New Ending in Catherine: Full Body is Transphobic"
Yeah I'm not gonna touch this with a ten foot pole.
I'm not saying it matters to a huge degree. Even earlier upthread I said 'you can't context your way out of voyeuristically showing Erica pre-transition for a cis audience'. But some people genuinely do want to look at context to see if it's malicious or just tone-deaf. I don't think it's going to be excused either way even if we get a localisation where Ishtar just bellows 'TRANS RIGHTS' at the end of her segment because the existing text is so gross.
But if people want as much information so they can contextualise Just How Oof It Is, well, hopefully that helped them.
So it seems like Erica will still transition? I mean it's a bit more in the past and we don't know when she transitioned.
Having watched the translated scene it goes like this:
Vincent calls Catherine through the bar
She travels back in time to highschool and meets Vincent there already, Paul survives and is with the group
Few years later they meet up in the bar and Vincent and Catherine marry
Toby says he wants a woman too and Erica says to him "Well there is a woman already nearby for you"
So Erica will still transition in this timeline?
Edit: Still stupid to show it that way. Could have been handled way better by mentioning the years and all and showing us that she will still do that in this timeline.
Edit 2: I've also read they removed the wrestling comment from ERica which is also a improviment.
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We do have some idea of when she transitioned normally, and it's earlier - potentially a lot earlier - than this timeline.
In the normal timeline Toby only joined the friend group a couple years ago as Johnny's coworker and never knew Erica prior to transition. From the way everyone (sans Erica, of course) looks in the Wedding Reception scene, same hair, same clothes, we have every reason to believe that it takes place very close to the normal events of the game.
It's not that this is some point in the past before she transitions, it's that this timeline is altered so that A: she delays transitioning, B: she doesn't transition or C: Toby inexplicably comes into the friend group much, much sooner and the wedding takes place long before the events of the game normal, which I find unlikely.
And again, at the bottom of it all is 'why'? Like, I get it, I understand at least Erica is still self-cognisant but ultimately the writers are given a time travel / Alternate Universe plot device and the only thing that it occurs to them to play around with, outside of the CKatherines, is 'let the audience see the trans person before transition'. EDIT: and I can't help but get the feeling that this plays along with cis people's ingrained idea that they are entitled to know the private histories of trans people
With Toby there it must be around the time the game plays. Even if she still transitions that means at least half a decade of additional dysphoria.
There is no way I can see to slice this where this is not very cruel.
Forgot to save it, but read what looked like a transcript of the ending in question.
Reading it, I am starting to believe there was no ill-intent here and they were just trying to portray the fact it is an alternate world with wacky stuff that changed some of the character's lives, and they chose to portray it with Erica because it was probably just... easy to do, maybe. Extremely shitty of Catherine for thinking this wasn't a tricky topic and how they could be extremely insensitive, but I do think this was just a misunderstanding.
Wish Atlus JP published a statement or something. Now, if they are truthful in it is another story.
Reading it, I am starting to believe there was no ill-intent here and they were just trying to portray the fact it is an alternate world with wacky stuff that changed some of the character's lives, and they chose to portray it with Erica because it was probably just... easy to do, maybe. Extremely shitty of Catherine for thinking this wasn't a tricky topic and how they could be extremely insensitive, but I do think this was just a misunderstanding.
Wish Atlus JP published a statement or something. Now, if they are truthful in it is another story.
The "voyeurism" of showing pre-transition Erica is an absolutely legitimate complaint.
But she literally implies she is still identifying as a woman, whether she intends to change her body in the future or not.
I think this is just a tone-deaf remnant of the idea they had "omg since we're going back in time let's show her before the transition !".
They wouldn't hint at her real gender otherwise.
Like the designs of all the characters don't make a lot of sense, Catherine and Vincent kept their memories, and they waited 10 years to get married at the exact same time as all the other endings ? That's weird.
More like they lazily kept all designs and added Toby to show he'd still end up with Erica eventually since he does in all the other endings.
That's the thing, it's one ending among a dozen so I think they just didn't give a shit about details and absolutely didn't realize how hurtful what they were doing was.
Also, Katherine and the other guy are apparently not having an ideal relationship. She doesn't exactly seem like she's living the dream and she's complaining about money and what not.
Not every trans person experiences dysphoria, for the record.
But she literally implies she is still identifying as a woman, whether she intends to change her body in the future or not.
I think this is just a tone-deaf remnant of the idea they had "omg since we're going back in time let's show her before the transition !".
They wouldn't hint at her real gender otherwise.
Like the designs of all the characters don't make a lot of sense, Catherine and Vincent kept their memories, and they waited 10 years to get married at the exact same time as all the other endings ? That's weird.
More like they lazily kept all designs and added Toby to show he'd still end up with Erica eventually since he does in all the other endings.
That's the thing, it's one ending among a dozen so I think they just didn't give a shit about details and absolutely didn't realize how hurtful what they were doing was.
Also, Katherine and the other guy are apparently not having an ideal relationship. She doesn't exactly seem like she's living the dream and she's complaining about money and what not.
Not every trans person experiences dysphoria, for the record.
And not every trans person must medically transition to still be trans. But considering what she did in the original timeline it's likely she was uncomfortable with her body.
I just meant that to me this is another case of the writers being tone deaf and not them trying to be cruel to Erica by making her go through that.
Solution A
- The writers are inconsiderate and just wanted to use the time travel shenanigans as a way to satisfy cis voyeurism, but had Erica confirm her gender through her brief interaction with Toby to 4th wall wink at the audience and show she is still herself
Solution B
- The writers deliberately decided to make Erica suffer for half a decade just because they hate her and they want her to be miserable
Considering that the other new endings are in no way doing this to her and are rather nice to her, I do not think it was solution B.
This is still terrible, do not get me wrong. I just feel like the intent matters in this context.
Yikes, not a good look...again because IIRC this isn't Atlus' first offense. I remember them depicting a gay guy really poorly in one of the Persona game, right?
You shut your whore mouth 3D Dot Game Heroes is a masterpiece
Multiple times. In all 3 Hashino Persona games. It also shows the dude is a misogynist piece of shit.
Anime goons keep spamming me and harassing me with this post now, not knowing that you have since edited this and knowing that this is still pretty bad
Why don't those guys not know about context
Because it wouldn't support their narrative.
And can't you just get out of there? You don't need to engage them or bear with their harassment, it's useless.
EDIT: oops, that came out wrong! I apologize for that. English is not my first language so it might have to do with it. What I meant is that if those trolls are causing any kind of distress I think you should get out of the conversation if possible. Where is this harassment happening exactly?
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It's a Gamergate site.
For the record, so is TechRaptor, since I've seen that linked uncritically in the past as well.
What do you mean?
They said they're being harassed with it (on Twitter, I assume?). Trying to deal with that isn't "supporting their harassment", that's gross.
No this is not what I meant at all. Apologies if it came out wrong.
I was just saying that if those trolls were causing any kind of distress then it would be better to just get out of the conversation because no good could come out of it. And you're right, if it's on Twitter I guess it's something else. Apologies again if I misinterpreted the situation. I meant no harm.
Edit: English is not my first language. What I meant is "bear with their harassment", not support.
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I really hope the localization can somehow make this work in the west.
I also hope ATLUS stops being so goddamn anti LGBT dammit, the games are good just stop with the bullshit.
I also hope ATLUS stops being so goddamn anti LGBT dammit, the games are good just stop with the bullshit.
Even if the context for the new wedding scene is slightly not as awful, they still feel the need to deliberately show Erica in a pre-transitional state as a punchline to Toby wishing he could find an "angelic girl" (when angels in Rin's context have penises). We already know how Toby reacts after Erica sleeps with him in the original K ending which I assume they kept and haven't altered. We still have two different instances of trans (or trans-coded) characters "tricking" their partners in this game. We still have the credits dead-naming Erica. This game is still wrapped in layers of transphobia whether or not one single instance has context that wasn't as bad as we though but sure as hell still isn't great.
Is there anywhere I can read up on this idea of "cis voyeurism"? I think I kind of understand why it's an issue here, but I'd still like to learn more about it.
I want to point something out here, but with Rin's alien race, they actually call themselves "Angel," using the English loan word, whereas Toby's line uses the Japanese word "tenshi." They will not be interpreted as the same to the Japanese speaking audience. I think it's safe to say there is no intended connection between Rin's alien race and that line. As an aside, the English loan word is also used for the Angel Persona in the Persona games over the Japanese "tenshi."
Aaaah, understood. Sorry for any worrying I caused; I can see how those words could get mixed up!
At best, Erica still intends to transition or at least sees herself as a woman in this new timeline, but it still makes 0 sense that she hasn't transitioned given the time period the scene has to be set in. Which makes it seem like they arbitrarily had that be the case just to have that line which reveals she still sees herself as a woman... and that line is a punchline.
So is that better than saying "actually it's better that she's not trans"? Yeah. But is it actually good and not transphobic in itself? Nope.
I am not super familiar with it as a specific term, but in general I would assume: as a cis person, you don't have a right to know about a trans person's history. You're not entitled to know how they used to look/present, their deadname, etc. There shouldn't be a "fun" reveal that makes the audience go "ah, so that's what they used to be like!".
Not having an exact source but whenever there is an article written about a trans person here is a strong tendency to both deadname them along with the proper namr and show a pre transition picture.
Even among those who don't misgender the pronouns.
I don't think writers should be limited in what they can show of a character because idiots think that makes being intrusive into peoples history okay.
Not gonna lie, I sort of pulled the term out of thin air because I'm having some trouble expressing what it is I'm feeling. There's just something that really, really rubs me the wrong way about them seeing an opportunity to change stuff around, and the only thing they jump on is Erica. Like they're excited at the transgression of it, of getting to point and say 'look at this'.
^p much this, especially the last part, is where I'm coming from.
As much I'd like to believe that Atlus didn't fuck up majorly and just delayed Erica's transitioning for some reason, knowing Atlus's history, they could've just branded her as an okama (a stereotypical effeminate gay man) because 天使みたいな子 sounds like something one would say (based on my experience with VNs where that kind of characters show up). Ultimately, there is not enough context to say for sure but the inclusion of that is shitty either way. When I visited the Catherine wiki the other day and saw a pre-transitioning image on Erica's page, I honestly expected Full Body to expand on her history and the incident but if it was just for this deprorable ending, a big sigh. In my opinion (as a trans person), Erica's portrayal in the original game was flawed yet I wouldn't call it transphobic. She retained 3 male friends after coming out (a scenario I find unrealistic, at least in my country and in Japan), she fully passes, she got laid and lived to tell about it. Yes, the jokes and hints were tasteless, though it's still a small price to pay in comparison to what real trans people go through. In a perfect world, there would be no price but the society is transphobic and those comments served as a reminder. Erica herself is an amazing character and I was looking forward to explore her past and relate to her experience which wasn't too much to ask, instead I'm getting an ambigious scene that leaves no one satisfied, except some hypothetical weirdos who thought Eric x Toby was more important than her identity.
If they really want to write about marginalized people, it's too bad they can't have even just one person from said group to come in as an advisor for the script.
Edit: I am not saying that there are no LGBT people in that studio.
Edit: I am not saying that there are no LGBT people in that studio.
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Do you have any actual evidence to back this up? That no one on their team is LGBT?
天使みたいな子 was a line from Toby used to describe Catherine.
I was talking specifically about the team working on the script for the game not the entire studio. And no, I don't have any evidence and could be wrong.
From their track record, it doesn't seem like it though.
I mean, the OP and the rest of this thread are already full of wild accusations about a specific individual based solely on extrapolations of events in games released from a studio over the course of more than a decade. I guess more baseless assumptions about the many individuals that had an influence on the games is not out of place.
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So if this part is accurate then it does kind of sound like people are indeed jumping the gun. Unless I'm misunderstanding this implies Erica is planning to still transition
OP
OP
Even if there was zero implication that Catherine changed everyone's lives for "the better", there's no reason to not have Erica transition in that timeline and not explain it.
This is partly true.
While it is correct that Catherine does not say anything about 'making a better world', we've seen very little in the way of translations from Ishtar's piece. That might be where the line comes from.
But suppose it doesn't. Suppose there is no line anywhere about this being 'a better world'. What are we left with? We're left with a timeline which has still been altered so that Erica has delayed transitioning for a long time compared to the main timeline. She's there as an easter egg, or rather, a punchline.
So yes, if that line isn't in, it's less offensive. It's still pretty damn cruel and exploitative.
Moreover the new ending is still framed as a unilaterally positive outcome for the cast, where everything worked out for the better.
You'll have to check back when information becomes more widespread as to what you have to mechanically do to get it, but most likely it is the most involved, and winstates contextualise play and vice-versa.
Moreover, this is an ending in which Vincent avoids the entire love quadrangle, it's implied that the murder-dreams are averted, and Katherine goes on to pursue her own relationships. That's a pretty clean ending.
But why and how are they showing that time of the character's life? That's the question you need to ask yourself. This isn't about "censorship" or "limiting creators" (frankly: it never is) as you seem to be implying.
I think people would largely accept being shown that period for a character if it is specifically meant to respectfully show that time in their life, to develop them as a character and not just play to this curiosity. And it should be noted that people are more likely to be ok with that when it's clearly coming from a trans writer, talking about their own identity and working off their experiences.
But when it's meant to indulge that kind of gross curiosity, it's still gross even when it's directed towards a character and not a person.
Or in this case, at best they seem to not care about handling it well at all, which might as well be the same thing.
We also had someone saying they have JP industry knowledge/rumors that would support that Hashino is to blame. There have been some particularly out there interview quotes regarding other issues cited in the thread about him. So he is a reasonable person to look at as the source of this problem, and this belief certainly is not only present in this thread even before you consider it is seemingly not limited to the English-language fandom, nor is him being to blame a new idea.
And I don't want to backseat mod or anything, but I do want to say - for your win good - that I think you're getting kiiiiinda close to crossing the line set by the staff post here.
Yeah that's my read. Erica is planning to transition? Or sees herself as gender fluid?
Yeah, that poster made a single post alleging to that. I asked multiple times (once via PM) for links to such threads or communities, but have not yet received a response. I'm very interested in seeing what the Japanese LGBT community has to say about the game, but Googling and searching Twitter has turned up nothing for me. I do hope that poster shows up again and backs up those claims.
The one quote I've seen was about him admitting to not having successfully formed a platonic friendship with the opposite sex. Are there others?
It's reasonable to have suspicions about them, but did you read the definitive claims in the OP and by others in this thread calling him all sorts of vile names? Someone even went off and changed his Wikipedia page, although I have no proof it was an ERA poster.
In what way? I'm not defending any of the content in the games. I just think we need more definitive evidence before pinning all of the problematic issues on a singular individual.
But whether or not she intends to transition is not the only problem, and the thread has been aware of this dialogue for many many many pages now besides.
1. Toby is there. Tony is a decade younger than the rest of the cast; he originally did not meet Erica before she presented as a woman. Because he is there, this cannot be set before more or less when the game took place, when she had been presenting that way for a good long while.
2. That line is a punchline. It's not "don't worry, she's still a girl!" It's playing her actually being a girl as a joke to the player. And I will again say: it feels like the entire reason she is inexplicably depicted this way is just so they can make this joke. And that sucks.
also, again, for context: that's a pro-Gamergate site
At the very least, everyone else is happy and a dead character is even alive (if only to solve the problem of making Katherine happy). Even if the intent was purely to meet Vincent earlier, it sure is worth questioning how literally everyone except Erica is way better off, right?
That's not to say they intentionally went "well, everyone else can be happy, but fuck Erica". But the fact that they didn't see why changing that detail was a huge problem...
Wait, what? What we're left with from my understanding of that quote is that Erica still plans to tradition and possibly ends up with Tobey. I'm not seeing how that's "damn cruel and exploitative".
But it's not a problem since it implies she does still plan to?
I'm not seeing the joke. To be clear, are we talking about the line "She may be closer than you think." ? If so, all I get from that is the information that Erica still plans to transition.
If anything. Rin's true ending is the best in the game.
Rin and Vincent get happily martied, Erica debuts as a female pro wrestler and is hinted at dating Toby, and Katherine/Vincent seem to break things off on reletively good terms (She is at Vincent's wedding)