Ahh, got it. I mean, it is possible, but that's just speculation and editorializing on the poster's behalf.
Either way, the description in the spoiler is accurate and, more importantly, more objective.
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[Major Spoilers] One of the endings in Catherine: Full Body gets extremely transphobic... moreso than that original (OP Updated Feb. 17)
- Thread starter HylianSeven
- Start date
Ahh, got it. I mean, it is possible, but that's just speculation and editorializing on the poster's behalf.
Either way, the description in the spoiler is accurate and, more importantly, more objective.
Here is one of them trying to fucking keep dogpileing me, and using shitty "gotcha" tactics
Because all I said "stop overreacting, ResetERA isn't ban happy"
https://imgur.com/a/wy254Wg
I'm playing Persona 4 right now and there has been a heap of incredibly questionable content in it so far. Atlus needs to seriously shake itself up and change their attitude and philosophy.
I'm guessing there logic was "well if the games already gonna go there, fuck it date everybody."
Yeah getting mad at that article's author over this is like....yeah thats bad but you could already literally fuck your teacher so getting upset at the gay version of it is kinda telling on yourself.
Oh good I'm not the only one who thinks dating your teacher, who moonlights as a fetishy maid, is incredibly weird.
It makes 0 sense even in the game itself. "I want to help all my students and I'm going to do that by dating one of them"
Oh it is beyond bizarre in so many ways, and the fact it doesn't get more flak than it does is astounding.
I ended up going with her as the romance just to see how far it would go, and it sure goes places.
It's annoying that you're given no choice but to blackmail Kawakami into working as your maid. I just wanted to give her money and have her sit down for a chat.
Simply playing an aro/ace protagonist is a hurdle on its own.
Simply playing an aro/ace protagonist is a hurdle on its own.
The dating your teacher part of Persona 5 was ultra YIKES for me. Was extremely uncomfortable playing through that.
I'd forgotten about it; thanks again for reminding me. >:(
The only way I can even make sense for it is that it's a play for people who crushed on a hot teacher they had in high school. Every other interpretation is just gross
You have to, at the very least, go along with her being blackmailed into being your maid, even if you never advance that S.Link any further (and that S.Link has an EXTREMELY good payoff, gameplay-wise, so you are incentivised to do it).
This goes back to what was said about how P5 does't really give you actual choices in your choices.
Yeah, that part isn't great. But the thing I keep hearing when it comes to this kind of discussion is: "I don't like how you can date X in the game." Followed by the same person going, "I dated X to see how it would be." Like, that's exactly why they made it an option.
If it were up to me, Persona wouldn't even have dating in it anymore, but hey.
If you want to 100% it and get all of the bonuses available, you have to go through that S.Link. Even if you decide not to date her, you still blackmail her by forcing her to be your maid. Fuck that.
I didn't like any of the party member girls with Joker (Ann and Makoto are both pretty gay-coded, imo, Sakura is Just No, Haru shows up too late to care) and I wanted to know if they really, really were going to go all the way with it.
And they did! And its bad!
it's really telling how many people in this thread can't fuckin' fathom how transphobia can be intentional no matter how blatant
Honestly I'd think so too if it weren't the shadow versions being extremes of what you're really hiding, and Kanji's boss is nothing but exagerated bara/gay imagery instead of "feminine" themes. His boss alone paints him as imo he originally wanted to be gay or
with this new scandal now showing a pattern
they equate male femininity with homosexuality and the common gross trans/homophobic phrasing of "Youre just a girl in a dude's body" and designed everything about shadow kanji around that
Either way I'd rather revisionist history make him gay to balance out the utter suffering Yosuke puts him and the audience through
Catching up on what I missed since I was last in here, I understand why people are focusing so much on the Erica stuff, especially since it's what the thread is framed around and it definitely seems to be bad, but it's disappointing that the stuff concerning Rin seems to still be mostly getting ignored since that's easily just as concerning but it just seems to be getting missed mostly. To quote, for those unaware:
I guess for them the best way to show how apathetic they are about the issue is to browse the site they hate, steal a post that was later edited but never mention that and post it on twitter at someone talking about the issue to own people from the same site the post is from and then...? Eh, alright
You also see the same thing whenever someone does something racist. People tripping over themselves making excuse after excuse instead of acknowledging the truth.
I want the dating to stay just out of sheer desperate hope for the POSSIBILITY of homo in a non-hashino Persona 6.
Ive thought about it a lot, and what really pisses me off about the homophobia/transphobia in these games is that if you did put a good gay in or make one of the mcs gay, it'd work because the homophobia is written in such a gross realistic way that a gay confronting that makes it fine, but without that its literally just the most horrific shit to be written.
You could talk to Ryuji after the predator scene, or whatever, and he realizes he's gay(or bi), and there's conclusion with him at the beach being nice to the gays and then you can date him, that'd literally solve so much.
Or Yosuke in P4, put that cut love confession SLink in, and it would both explain and and legitimize his comedically overthetop homophobia. If that cut link was canon, id legitimately really like Yosuke.
Hashino is just a huge piece of shit though so the longer hes around the worse itll be because none of that'll happen
If its any consolation, Joker himself doesn't react or say anything homophobic in the game iirc, it's just Ryuji and (someone else???) that are disgusted at points.
Rin refers themself as a otokonoko. Which is a crossdressing male. So the rin situation wouldn't really be transphobia.
OP
OP
I think the main issue is a different moment with Rin.
Vincent finds out Rin has a penis when she's in his bedroom and slaps her hand away and she runs off.
The character's color pallet is the trans flag. It's a continuation of the game's seeming belief that trans people don't exist.
I'd be against this particular solution because at the end of the day those stereotyped guys are still harassing Ryuji and that's not OK. I'd be far more willing to interpret those harassment scenes as a "joke" (as much as harassment can be a joke) that didn't land if we'd actually gotten proper, prominent LGBT portrayal elsewhere in the game.
No idea how to make a non-shit message out of those scenes though, they just suck.
I'm more disturbed by the idea of connotating Joker with Hashino/financially supporting Hashino. Not Joker's character himself. But thank you, regardless.
Holy fuck, it's hard to believe that's unintentional even though I'd love to believe it is.
Generally, it has do with the problematic portion being embedded into pretty much the entire or most of the game. Persona 5 and plenty of other Japanese games often have problematic elements in them, but those elements generally don't define the entire game.
i've spent a while reading through this thread and having watched the clip, i have to say that to me the lines in question come off as a nudge-nudge-wink-wink "joke" referencing erica's identity in the rest of the game. it doesn't feel to me like it implies either way that she's 100% 'fine' this way or that she'll still transition here; it just feels like a strange and sudden shitty reinforcement of tired okama stereotypes in the form of some sort of baffling fourth-wall-breaking joke (fwiw i'm a japanese speaker). of course, these things are all up to interpretation as well.
why did they bother to do this... i assume to get in some final poking fun at her...? it's extremely frustrating to see, especially as a trans woman who was hoping against hope that despite the terrible marketing they'd manage to do something transformative with rin's character, which of course they didn't (dissecting 男の娘 identity & stereotyping is well outside the scope of this thread, but i'm not a fan), and now this...
why did they bother to do this... i assume to get in some final poking fun at her...? it's extremely frustrating to see, especially as a trans woman who was hoping against hope that despite the terrible marketing they'd manage to do something transformative with rin's character, which of course they didn't (dissecting 男の娘 identity & stereotyping is well outside the scope of this thread, but i'm not a fan), and now this...
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Yeah. My understanding is that there's a scene where Vincent freaks out because Rin has a penis. This naturally implies that Rin never told Vincent that beforehand. That's transphobic regardless of whether Rin is transgender or just a cross-dressing male, and I pretty clearly lay out why that is in the post I quoted. Even if Rin is a crossdressing man, by having Vincent freak out about the character having a penis, that implies it wasn't brought up beforehand and that's clearly falling back on "trap" imagery regardless of whether Rin actually is transgender or not. That's wholly irrelevant. If anything, it makes it even worse to use that kind of imagery, to invoke that harmful stereotype when the character isn't even transgender in the first place, meaning there's just that much less reason to go anywhere near that nonsense and have a scene anywhere close to that.
Getting a little deeper into this translation for those who aren't familiar with Japanese:
What makes this worse is that "Otokonoko" is a double entendre. 男の子 means "boy", whereas 男の娘 means "Mandaughter". It's a social term that is used to describe crossplayers, crossdressers, and individuals who identify as male but dress as female, not entirely different from Drag Queen's usage in English, minus the social performative connotations.
This isn't just reading overly into it... It outright erases Rin's potential transgender identity even as Rin's color palette appropriates the trans flag and Rin's narrative is trans-coded. It's pretty fucked up.
How do you know I or anyone else wasn't critical of that too?
Pedophilia apologia is still just that. I'm not sure what it's telling of me, a bisexual man, to critique it.
Tbh i was exaggerating even that, because yeah theyre still written as overly flamboyant predators and still extremely uncomfortable. Maybe rewritten as just a drunk couple outside a bar being affectionate to eachother and Ryuji reacts at that, but still jesus.
Mishima always came off as "man just change 3 lines and they'd be gay" what with the bullying imo.
I really wish it was set in college instead of highschool next time. Maybe that percieved "maturity" of characters would make them more willing to put gays in, and it'd solve the problem of the adult dates from being as gross. Though, if they did that, you can probably be gauranteed a young school girl romance just to fill that Nasty quota so every direction has a huge "but!"
Honestly I would be too, but unlike the Sugiyama situation, he's not as overtly profiting and is thankfully not on P6.
Though honestly I'm also trying to rationalize supporting the series further to myself as well lol. I even had to just put P5 away for a few months after those scenes because of how much it depressed me. I like the game a lot and Joker is cool but maaaaaan It'd take a lot to make up for that shit.
Would making thread specifically about whether or not this will affect your purchasing of future Atlus products be redundant?
At the end of the day, you have to decide where your line is on something you won't be willing to support. I still plan on getting Catherine: Full Body, and I recently got Kingdom Come (though I probably would have gotten it sooner if it wasn't for the creator). I also still plan on buying DQ games. My line tends to generally line up with about where ResetEra puts games on its current banlist (though none of those games interested me in the first place).
I'll say I'm generally hesitant to actually bring the trans flag colors into this sort of criticism - in that I am not sure if that's used by Japanese LGBTQ groups as well, which I feel is important (and so I would love to know that one way or the other). Because the coloration of the flag was specifically chosen to reflect the stereotypical colors associated with boys and girls, it's not really surprising to me that someone would coincidentally pick more or less the exact same colors when trying to indicate "there's something about gender, here". That being said, it's completely reasonable if people find that it makes something hurt them even more.
And, well, Rin's entire deal sounds like a mess of dealing with gender/sexuality in a way that - most generously, and I don't think that's earned - the writer was unequipped to handle. Not to say that gay crossdressers don't exist or anything, but if you don't understand the real world context of such a person enough to portray specifically that in a clear way, it sure comes across like you don't understand trans people at all. Or gay people, really...
And, well, Rin's entire deal sounds like a mess of dealing with gender/sexuality in a way that - most generously, and I don't think that's earned - the writer was unequipped to handle. Not to say that gay crossdressers don't exist or anything, but if you don't understand the real world context of such a person enough to portray specifically that in a clear way, it sure comes across like you don't understand trans people at all. Or gay people, really...
I feel like gender nonconformity issues are still so invisible that it's generally better for someone to try and get it wrong instead of never trying at all. There just isn't the privilege to be cynical in these cases. I seek out the most generous takes not to save the work as a whole, but to save the rare piece representation. One of the nice things about death of the author is we don't necessarily have to be bound by what might be gross intent.
But it's almost like the writers and directors at Atlus saw those types of takes, and decided with Persona 5 and Catherine Full Body that there'd be absolutely no way around how offensive these portrayals are.
But it's almost like the writers and directors at Atlus saw those types of takes, and decided with Persona 5 and Catherine Full Body that there'd be absolutely no way around how offensive these portrayals are.
I played Catherine last year and had no idea Erica was trans. She's a great character and knowing that the game treats her like this is fucked up. Jeers to the writer of this game and jeers to Atlus for letting it go through like this.
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