Making every gen 1 fully evolved Pokemon viable in Stadium... what level should they be?

[Waluigilicious]

I've got a bit of an interesting question for the Pokefans out there. Let's say in Pokemon Stadium you can edit the levels of all fully evolved Pokemon (+ Dragonair because of its unique typing) to whatever level you want (which you can do with a randomiser), and you want to do it in such a way that every Pokemon is a viable choice. They all also have a competitive moveset. What level would you say some Pokemon will need to be compared with others so that any Pokemon choice would be a good one?

Smogon sort of has four different groups of tiers for gen 1: Uber, OU, UU (OU viable), and UU . I done a quick edit where I made Uber level 90, OU level 95, UU (OU viable) level 98 and UU level 100.

So for example:

Mew, Mewtwo are lv. 90
Snorlax, Slowbro are lv. 95
Charizard, Golem are lv. 98
Venomoth, Hitmonchan are lv. 100

Not much thought was put into this, but picking 6 Pokemon to use at random, I would say the battle was quite fair. Some of the level 100 are still a bit too weak though when compared to the level 95 (Butterfree and Farfetch'd for example). Still heaps better than having everyone at level 100...

Anyone have any input as to what level they feel certain Pokemon or groups of Pokemon should be compared with others? I feel that adding a level cap to Pokemon is a good way to make more Pokemon viable.

 

[L Thammy]

psychic types are level 1
ghost and bug types are level 500

haven't checked the math but it's probably around there

 

[It’s Time To Go]

Gen 1 is broken though, so theres a small pool of Pokemon that are competitively viable and the rest are rubbish.

 

[Waluigilicious]

Here is an example of what it looks like at the moment. I want it so every Pokemon is a good choice:

 

[Waluigilicious]

Gen 1 is broken though, so theres a small pool of Pokemon that are competitively viable and the rest are rubbish.

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Yepp it's broken as hell, but there's got to be the right levels to be able to balance it. For example if the likes of Alakazam is level 85 and Butterfree is level 100. Need to find that sweet spot!

 

[L Thammy]

Realistically, if you wanted to approach this, I wouldn't look at Smogon tiers to start. I'd look at the Pokemon's actual stats, maybe with a weight adjustment thrown (Special being a single stat means it's probably more valuable than either Attack or Defense). Try to equalize them that way to start.

Then you start compensating for type and moveset.

 

[It’s Time To Go]

Yepp it's broken as hell, but there's got to be the right levels to be able to balance it. For example if the likes of Alakazam is level 85 and Butterfree is level 100. Need to find that sweet spot!

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Nope. I mean for one, although Butterfree is bug type and that's the only super effective type against psychic, there's only 3 (?) bug moves in the whole game and butterfree doesn't learn any of the damage attack ones. In addition, psychic is such a broken type that level wouldn't make much difference in that scenario.

 

[Waluigilicious]

Realistically, if you wanted to approach this, I wouldn't look at Smogon tiers to start. I'd look at the Pokemon's actual stats, maybe with a weight adjustment thrown (Special being a single stat means it's probably more valuable than either Attack or Defense). Try to equalize them that way to start.

Then you start compensating for type and moveset.

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Yeah I was thinking of looking at the stats individually and coming up with some sort of formula, but the problem is that on its own it doesn't take into account movesets and typings and what other Pokemon are available. I think I need a balance of both... maybe for each of the four tiers, have a 5 level leeway and depending on the total base stats of the Pokemon, within that 5 levels assign them one...
96-100
91-95
86-90
81-85

That might work. Off the top of my head I can say that Mewtwo will be level 81 and Farfetch'd would be 100. That doesn't sound too bad to me. It's not perfect but it's so so much better than having everyone on the same level.

 

[L Thammy]

How would Mew fit into this? Has the best type, probably has the best moveset potential. Where you do find the balance that Mew is not straight up better than everthing else and also Mew hasn't been punished so hard it's worthless compared to more specialized Pokemon?

 

[Waluigilicious]

Nope. I mean for one, although Butterfree is bug type and that's the only super effective type against psychic, there's only 3 (?) bug moves in the whole game and butterfree doesn't learn any of the damage attack ones. In addition, psychic is such a broken type that level wouldn't make much difference in that scenario.

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You're absolutely right, but you'd be surprised how much repeatability and variety this would add. Even just adjusting the levels (and movesets) the way I have, it was a completely different game. It won't be perfect for sure, but it's a massive improvement.

 

[Waluigilicious]

How would Mew fit into this? Has the best type, probably has the best moveset potential. Where you do find the balance that Mew is not straight up better than everthing else and also Mew hasn't been punished so hard it's worthless compared to more specialized Pokemon?

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Well Mew and Mewtwo are the only uber Pokemon according to Smogon, so they will be the lowest and their own level. I had made them level 90 (and using it against level 100 Pokemon... it was powerful but nowhere near as broken) but if I adjusted it as above, it can go as low as 81.

 

[EllipsisBreak]

This is specifically about the rental Pokemon, right? In that case, each species only has one moveset. That moveset will likely end up being the most important factor in the viability of a Pokemon.

Mew is an extreme example. It's overpowered partly because it can have so many different moves. But that advantage doesn't really apply here, does it? This is why you can't rely on the existing tier lists for the gen 1 metagame. This project is going to take a lot of experimentation and iteration.

 

[Waluigilicious]

This is specifically about the rental Pokemon, right? In that case, each species only has one moveset. That moveset will likely end up being the most important factor in the viability of a Pokemon.

Mew is an extreme example. It's overpowered partly because it can have so many different moves. But that advantage doesn't really apply here, does it? This is why you can't rely on the existing tier lists for the gen 1 metagame. This project is going to take a lot of experimentation and iteration.

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Thanks for your input. Yepp it's specifically about the rental Pokemon. I feel that even though a tier list takes into account multiple movesets, because I'm using the same source for the most recommended moveset too, it should be balanced in the fact that they've probably taken their most recommended moveset into account. You're right though, there's other factors for tier lists.. for example a Pokemon might simply be a lower tier just because there is a specific Pokemon that does its job better. Even though, I still feel if that Pokemon was too overpowered for their current tier on its own that would be taken into account and it wouldn't be allowed to be there.

Mew with its moveset and Mewtwo with its massive stats is an outlier and I'm happy to make them as low level as needed, or even omit them, although I don't see much reason in doing the latter as it'll be nice to truly balance all Pokemon.

I believe there's 149 spaces on the Pokemon selection screen, and there are 82 fully evolved Pokemon (counting Dragonair), so 67 of the 82 Pokemon can have a second moveset option. Using Smogon as a base, I'm hoping there are at least 15 Pokemon that won't need a second moveset choice. If I can achieve 149 viable movesets using 82 different viable Pokemon, that would be quite the achievement!

Even if it's not perfect when given the choice on who to pick, as some will always be better than others, I want to attempt to make it so that randomly chosen 6 Pokemon fighting against each other is a fair battle and mostly comes down to skill, and just the minor changes I've made to levels (and movesets) so far has made a massive difference.

 

[Waluigilicious]

Just incase anyone is interested to know... I have edited a lot of levels and by selecting Pokemon at random, it truly does lead to a fair battle! I've divided the Pokemon into four groups, and within those four groups done some research online and fairly divided them between 5 levels in each group. These are the levels I've come up with (asterisk means one moveset, everyone else has two, taking advantage of the 149 slot limit)...

81 Mewtwo
83 Mew
86 Tauros
86 Chansey
86 Snorlax
86 Exeggutor
87 Starmie
87 Alakazam
87 Lapras
88 Gengar
88 Slowbro
88 Zapdos
88 Jynx
88 Cloyster
88 Rhydon
90 Victreebel
90 Jolteon
91 Dragonite
91 Golem
91 Persian
91 Articuno
92 Hypno
92 Dodrio
92 Gyarados
92 Clefable
92 Kangaskhan
92 Venusaur
92 Moltres
92 Dugtrio
92 Sandslash
92 Kabutops
92 Raichu
93 Tentacruel
94 Arcanine
94 Aerodactyl
94 Blastoise
94 Charizard
94 Ninetales
94 Machamp
94 Nidoking
94 Nidoqueen
94 Pidgeot
94 Mr. Mime
95 Kingler
95 Tangela
96 Electabuzz
96 Omastar
96 Vaporeon
97 Golduck
97 Poliwrath
97 Raticate*
98 Dewgong*
98 Pinsir
98 Venomoth*
99 Flareon
99 Rapidash*
99 Scyther*
99 Weezing
99 Electrode
99 Muk
99 Magmar
99 Magneton
99 Seadra
99 Golbat
99 Vileplume
99 Primeape
99 Seaking*
99 Fearow*
99 Arbok
99 Dragonair*
99 Wigglytuff
99 Hitmonchan*
99 Hitmonlee
99 Marowak*
99 Parasect
99 Onix*
100 Lickitung*
100 Porygon
100 Beedrill*
100 Butterfree*
100 Farfetch'd
100 Ditto*

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Some interesting stats...

Top 5 Max BST, before to now:

1. 1775 to 1459
2. 1595 to 1441
3. 1595 to 1437
4. 1585 to 1430
5. 1575 to 1425

Lowest 5
78. 1215 to 1198
79. 1205 to 1175
80. 1205 to 1136
81. 1175 to 1124
82. 1075 to 1075

Difference between 1st and 82nd decreased from 700 to 384.

Difference between 2nd and 81st (ignoring outliers Mewtwo and Ditto) decreased from 420 to 266.

Most total stats
1. Moltres lv. 92
2. Mewtwo lv. 81
3. Flareon lv. 99
4. Gyarados lv. 92
5. Articuno lv. 91
6. Pinsir lv. 98
7. Weezing lv. 99
8. Rapidash lv. 99

Speed
1. Electrode lv. 99
2. Aerodactyl lv. 94
3. Jolteon lv. 90
4. Dugtrio lv. 92
5. Rapidash lv. 99
6. Scyther lv. 99
7. Persian lv. 91
8. Fearow lv. 99
...
77. Porygon lv. 100
78. Chansey lv. 86
79. Golem lv. 88
80. Lickitung lv. 100
81. Rhydon lv. 88
82. Parasect lv. 99
83. Slowbro lv. 88
84. Snorlax lv. 86

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[Waluigilicious]

Click to shrink...

 

[PyroPaperPlanes]

That's actually a pretty neat way of looking at things. I don't ever see a meta like this being enforced mind, but it would be interesting twist for friendly matches at the very least.

 

[Waluigilicious]

That's actually a pretty neat way of looking at things. I don't ever see a meta like this being enforced mind, but it would be interesting twist for friendly matches at the very least.

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Thanks! I actually do wonder why this isn't done in competitive play, at the very least in simulators. By giving everyone a level cap, you increase the playing field tenfold.

 

[Deleted member 3465]

I don't have any advice on the topic, but I agree with PyroPaperPlanes! I love this idea a lot and I hope it works out!!

 

[Waluigilicious]

I've been experimenting with this in the last few months on and off, and am quite happy with the final results. If anyone is interested in knowing the movesets and have any suggestions for better balance, let me know! I really am no expert when it comes to competitive battling, especially gen 1...We may stream a battle at one point and I'll post the video link here.

If anyone has an everdrive, this works flawlessly on it.