Man who taught dog Nazi salute found guilty of hate crime

[Nepenthe]

The point of your post is moronic. The fact that government bans child pornography -- which involves the literal rape of a child -- is not even remotely the same thing as banning a stupid and tasteless attempt at humor. One involves a person being bodily penetrated or exposed for the sexual gratification of others. The other is a stupid joke that we can all just shrug off as stupid.

You need to look in the mirror, guy.

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First of all, I'm a woman.

Second of all, I took that list of exceptions straight from a Congressional Research Service report written by a legistlative attorney,so you getting your knickers in a twist over the mere mention of it is that much more fascinating.

Third of all, you're still conveniently ignoring the other examples still as you continue to clutch pearls and ignore the overwhelming point: there are already exceptions to free speech in the United States. If you're not going to engage in good faith, don't waste my fucking time.

 

[Crashman]

I taught my dog how to shake. He'll do it if there's not food on the line, and its a bit more like a shake since he just sort of lifts his paw and allows it to be shook. If he sees food though, he puts more effort into it, waving it high into the air instead of really shaking. Always sort of thought it looked a bit like a nazi salute, but all he wants is some chicken treats.

 

[stufte]

You must not keep up with politics very much if you're unaware of the fact that the alt-right is just a fancy name white nationalists use.

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I keep up with politics, but I'm not all knowing. Sometimes I ask for sources because I'm unaware of certain things and like reading up on shit, it's nothing nefarious.

 

[blinky]

First of all, I'm a woman.

Second of all, I took that list of exceptions straight from a Congressional Research Service report written by a legistlative attorney,so you getting your knickers in a twist over the mere mention of it is that much more fascinating.

Third of all, you're still conveniently ignoring the other examples still as you continue to clutch pearls and ignore the overwhelming point: there are already exceptions to free speech in the United States. If you're not going to engage in good faith, don't waste my fucking time.

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No worries. You're the one who brought child rape into this. Have a good evening.

 

[stufte]

Pac-Man is serious business.

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You should at very least replace it with an transparent png without that ugly white border.

 

[Dennis8K]

 

[Red Arremer]

I taught my dog how to shake. He'll do it if there's not food on the line, and its a bit more like a shake since he just sort of lifts his paw and allows it to be shook. If he sees food though, he puts more effort into it, waving it high into the air instead of really shaking. Always sort of thought it looked a bit like a nazi salute, but all he wants is some chicken treats.

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Are you saying "Wanna gas the Jews?" or "Sieg Heil" when wanting him to shake paws?

 

[TheModestGun]

Of course it's what you're doing. You're spending multiple pages carrying water for someone who made a joke about gassing the Jews. Strikes me as defending racism. :|

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And you strike me as a person who argues in bad faith so you can feel superior to other humans. I already said MULTIPLE TIMES that I found what he said to be in very poor taste and that he should be punished via censorship in social media.

I have strictly said that I'm not comfortable with a government jailing someone based on what they find palatable when it comes to jokes (even ones that are reprehensible).

That is not an extreme or controversial opinion, and the fact that you are treating me like a racist for it shows how out of touch you are.

 

[RedMercury]

Saying stuff like what? What have I said that is at ALL crazy or racist? I don't agree that he should be jailed for his dumb joke. I am unaware of a dearth of antisemitism in the alt-right. What makes that wild at all?

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I'm sorry but it's wild to be unaware of anti-semitism on the right, I don't see how you can be a member of this forum or follow politics in any capacity and not have some base understanding of it. I don't buy that you are unaware, not when you are tacitly supporting Republicans and Trump at the same time saying they aren't nazis or white supremacists.

 

[stufte]

I'm sorry but it's wild to be unaware of anti-semitism on the right, I don't see how you can be a member of this forum or follow politics in any capacity and not have some base understanding of it. I don't buy that you are unaware.

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I'm not unaware of antisemitism in the alt-right. I was asking for the "ALL THE TIME" receipts. It's cool if you don't believe me. You probably think I'm alt-right anyhow.

I don't buy that you are unaware, not when you are tacitly supporting Republicans and Trump at the same time saying they aren't nazis or white supremacists.

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Cool edit. No, as a member of the Democratic party and bleeding heart liberal, I don't think all Republicans are Nazis or White Supremacists.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Joe Rogan's take. Funny watching him and his guest who I don't know talk about Scotland. His guest says something dumb about not being able to talk about sex on stage. Then Joe reminds him of Billy Connolly lol.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

What did you think this reply is supposed to say about you? Do you think it's positive to say you only care when it effects something you personally like?

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More like as someone where comedy is a big part of my identity, it's something I'm going to focus on when there's legal ramifications for it. People pick and choose what battles they want to fight, whether it's progressive not. I'm going to be more likely to fight the battles that affect the things I care about (humor, video games, etc).

 

[Falconbox]

Yeesh, what a horrible precedent. Thank god for the 1st amendment here.

How long until scenes like this in movies like Eurotrip are banned in the UK?

 

[EightBitNate]

Not all Republicans hate Jews. Look at Fox News and Israel.

I don't know where this conversation started so this may be completely out of context.

 

[GraphicViolets]

I'm not unaware of antisemitism in the alt-right. I was asking for the "ALL THE TIME" receipts. It's cool if you don't believe me. You probably think I'm alt-right anyhow.

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"all the time" vs "some of the time" or maybe "12 of the times but not the 13th"? that seems like a really pointless distinction to ask for. you're aware that the alt right do it enough that its part of what they do, so how is that not "all the time"?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Your example of 'humour' is pretty gross tbh. I would have stopped listening to that podcast.

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And that's fine, people have different taste in humor. That's not really the point I was trying to illustrate though. It was that it's a spectrum and how finding fucked up things funny isn't necessarily an accurate reflection of any given person but rather only one aspect of them. You can even call it a character flaw if you want, but I'd just prefer to call it representative of a mutli-faceted human.

Now if these people pose a legitimate threat, that's a completely different discussion.

 

[stufte]

"all the time" vs "some of the time" or maybe "12 of the times but not the 13th"? that seems like a really pointless distinction to ask for. you're aware that the alt right do it enough that its part of what they do, so how is that not "all the time"?

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In the same way that not all Democrats hate Republicans? I don't know what to tell you beyond the idea that "all the time" sounds like near 100% of the alt-right hate jews, when I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

 

[nillansan]

I was asking for the "ALL THE TIME" receipts. It's cool if you don't believe me. You probably think I'm alt-right anyhow.

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The alt-right and other white nationalist movements sure like to spend a lot of time spreading paranoia about "globalists" which is a not so subtle dog whistle for Jews.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

There have been laws against certain types of speech and contexts of speech for awhile now, such as obscenity laws, child porn laws, fighting words, libel, etc.. The First Amendment isn't all encompassing in a legal sense. You can argue that it should be and maybe I'd agree with you- maybe- but regardless we've been in the timeline of limited speech for awhile now.

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Obscenity laws are a mess of grey areas that never get enforced, fighting words are very rarely used even in cases where it would apply, and libel; well I'll give you that one to an extent.

 

[Heromanz]

Opps wrong thread

 

[Mona]

anti-semetic THREATS all. the. time. I've not heard of this, why should I not ask for some links? Should I just not ask questions?

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the tiki-torch whites marched through charlottesville last summer at a unite the right rally chanting "the jews will not replace us" and "the radical left and the state are all on the jewish side", and talking about how "we're showing to this parasit class of anti-white vermin that this is our country...and its going to remain our country", and "we will clear them from the streets forever"

the last 2 weren't specifically about jewish people, but they're included, and they're threats

anti sematism is weaved into the fabric of these radical rights groups, and everytime they make a threat, jewish are partly the intended target of it

 

[nillansan]

It's not really worth it. A lot of people are just looking for "GOTCHA" moments where they catch someone they think is racist. It isn't a good faith debate in the slightest. It's basically always the same people though so ignoring them goes a long way.

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What are you on about? He asked for receipts and he got a bunch, what's the problem?

 

[Kinthalis]

So is Benny Hill like rotting in some European prison somewhere for hate crimes too?

 

[stufte]

What are you on about? He asked for receipts and he got a bunch, what's the problem?

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Getting receipts is great! I like being informed. Getting my job threatened on the sly for asking, not so much.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Dude nobody is threatening you, relax. It's just wild af to be here as a verified individual, basically flaired as representative of the industry and to be saying stuff like that.

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The industry isn't a monolith nor should it be. People have different opinions on different things and there's plenty of people in the games industry (as well as many others) not cool with this verdict talking about it on Twitter.

 

[Deleted member 19844]

The guy should not be criminally punished for this (the video / teaching the dog).

This is an example of the kind of unreasonable conclusions i generally worry about with restrictions on speech.

 

[Nepenthe]

Obscenity laws are a mess of grey areas that never get enforced, fighting words are very rarely used even in cases where it would apply, and libel; well I'll give you that one to an extent.

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My point wasn't about enforcement; my point was that the laws exist. America has limitations on speech. According to some people, that means we are in the darkest possible political timeline imaginable, because once you have a single limit on free speech, everything is fair game to be prohibited because all speech is subjective and without context! Thus, it is our sworn duty to protect the Nazis from falling victim to hate speech laws in the UK.

 

[RedMercury]

Getting receipts is great! I like being informed. Getting my job threatened on the sly for asking, not so much.

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You keep saying this but nobody threatened your job, I don't know how many times you want me to say it. I'm not your boss, I dont think anyone here is. And no, I don't think you're a bad person or anything, and if you say you're a Democrat I'll take you at your word on that I guess, I think in all likelihood you're nice to people and care about your family and friends and all that good stuff. I do think your ignorance (and I don't mean stupidity at all) of our political situation plays right into the hands of the alt-right though and defending them or the cesspool they spawn from in Trump and the Republicans by not denouncing what is simply evil is complicity. I think you think you have good intentions, you probably think you are being reasonable by kind of landing somewhere in the middle as far as opinions go.

 

[Masterz1337]

Yeesh, what a horrible precedent. Thank god for the 1st amendment here.

How long until scenes like this in movies like Eurotrip are banned in the UK?

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As someone who's Jewish in basically blood only, things like this and Borat used to not be of a concern or could even be considered funny (more so Borat than that) since the laugh was at the absurdity of the situation and that some people were that backward. Especially in Borat where the laugh comes from him being that dumb to fall into that thinking and exposing other people as idiots who believe it too.

Of course, the recent years put all this in a new context and different light. I have a friend who is black and we would always tease each other about our heritage and who controls what, but we don't do it anymore just because it's been made clear that while we are laughing at it because that line of thinking is absurd, a large portion of the population revels in that thinking.

That eurotrip scene to me, has new meaning because it is not a reminder of the absurdity of people who follow that line of thinking, but rather a representation of all the people who do have some sort of anti-semitic view and it's a reminder of those people who hide it behind "jokes".

In retrospect I guess that stuff was never really that funny to start with, but I at least thought the world had moved beyond it. Foolish me.

What was seen as a joke now just seems like a dog whistle.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Yeah, I'm not going to say the alt-right aren't constantly making fun of Jews and sometimes threatening them because they absolutely are.

The difference is I'm not going around labeling everyone right of center (and even some centrists) alt-right. It's a spectrum and those truly deep in the alt-right are a minority of the right at large. Not all republicans are even remotely alt-right. Hell a lot of them aren't even alt-light (which is also bigger than the alt-right proper). There's a TON of issues with the party with anti-semitism probably being on the lower end as far as hating on minorities goes.

 

[nillansan]

Getting receipts is great! I like being informed. Getting my job threatened on the sly for asking, not so much.

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That wasn't a threat though, that was clarified. I too find it very surprising that someone that's even superficially informed about the alt-right isn't aware of the anti-semitism that pervades the movement. I could see how your line of questioning could come off as trolling or as an attempt to downplay the bigotry that drives the alt-right.

 

[RoaminRonin]

Receipts.gif

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/r/the_donald

 

[Prine]

Guy is an idiot.

But we got one the best comedy sketches ever with Father Ted with the same context (sort of).

"I heard your a racist now, Father" lol

I think they treated that with respect though. Father mistakenly, through his naive approach made all sorts of Nazi related gestures. God i was in stitches last week watching that ep.

 

[Deffers]

One bit of context I would like to point out is that he wasn't originally going to be jailed for this, he was just going to be fined. It's only after appealing it multiple times that the charges escalated. I don't know if that makes this strictly a free speech issue or if there were some other factors at play here I'm not aware of though.

 

[Ferrio]

Why do you people always trot out these extreme examples when they're so far removed from what we're arguing about right now? Which is the rise of the so-called "alt-right," the use of the internet to propagate hateful views and feed the normalization of Nazism' resurgence, and how to effectively curb any impulse among the public to openly express hate?.

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How is it extreme? Maybe before 2016 I could see this, but come on we're seeing first hand how this could work out if someone morally bankrupt took the wheel. Also mind you I'm responding to someone who initially said that he was A-okay with an Authoritarian rule, which is already extreme and ripe for abuse and why I was arguing as such. I'm not sure if you're arguing for authoritarian rule too, or just stepped in and didn't get a bigger picture of our discussion. Either way, socially ostracize these people, kick them from social media, hell punch them in their goddamn faces I don't give a crap. Once the government steps in I get worried not because I give a damn about these fucks, but I'm worried about people who are *worse* and in actual positions of power.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

One bit of context I would like to point out is that he wasn't originally going to be jailed for this, he was just going to be fined. It's only after appealing it multiple times that the charges escalated. I don't know if that makes this strictly a free speech issue or if there were some other factors at play here I'm not aware of though.

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Huh, that's... really weird. That almost sounds like this charge is based on spite.

 

[ItsBobbyDarin]

I always wanted to learn my dog to heil when I sad "Sig Heil". Of course, not to make my dog a Nazi, but as a parody.

I cannot see the actual video right now, but is there anything that he says that could be considered actual thought or plain parody?

EDit: ok, I just watched it. The gas the Jews thing is a bit too much, but the dogs reaction is the thing that makes it hilarious. If he could have said "The fuhrer is coming, look busy!", it would have been equally as funny.

 

[Red Arremer]

Guy is an idiot.

But we got one the best comedy sketches ever with Father Ted with the same context (sort of).

"I heard your a racist now, Father" lol

I think they treated that with respect though. Father mistakenly, through his naive approach made all sorts of Nazi related gestures. God i was in stitches last week watching that ep.

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I mean, that is still ridiculing the perpetrators, not the victims.
It's in the same vein as Mel Brooks' The Producers, or Mitchell & Webb's "Are we the baddies?" sketch. It makes fun of Nazis and their imagery (and in that sense, it takes away the power of these symbols by ridiculing them), but none of these comedy shows are making jokes at the expense of Holocaust victims.

In fact, I would heavily recommend you (and everyone else here) to watch this video essay by Lindsay Ellis about this kind of thing:

 

[Deffers]

Huh, that's... really weird. That almost sounds like this charge is based on spite.

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It apparently has to do with some public statement of wrongdoing being conditional to the fine? I don't know if before the court or what.

 

[Chrome]

Nice to see that dog whistling is finally being punished in a court of law!

you know i had to do it

 

[Kitsunelaine]

The fact that you posted it with periods after each word doesn't make any better. Once you give the government the power to pick and choose who gets to speak about what, you are voting to give Donald Trump the power to go after CNN, the New York Times, and his personal political enemies. I literally can't think of a time in US history when it would make less sense for a left-leaning American to endorse politically-inspired censorship.

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The only way you could think that this is an issue is if you thought all speech was equal and that it all must be defended under the banner of speech.

It isn't. And it shouldn't. Certain areas of speech are not, nor should they be, up for defense. You are making a mistake lumping all speech together.

 

[chromatic9]

Joe Rogan's take. Funny watching him and his guest who I don't know talk about Scotland. His guest says something dumb about not being able to talk about sex on stage. Then Joe reminds him of Billy Connolly lol.

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That's also a funny image he has of Scotland being a badass place.

Scottish police actually went to a Jewish group and said they should prosecute this guy. There was no complaints about the video, the police themselves made this happen.

 

[Deleted member 888]

That's also a funny image he has of Scotland being a badass place.

Scottish police actually went to a Jewish group and said they should prosecute this guy. There was no complaints about the video, the police themselves made this happen.

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I've read that and the lawyer defending them stated the court was made aware no one complained. We can't see the court documents as of yet though.

The only thing we know so far is the police did tip off the press for the arrest which is bullshit. That shouldn't be happening. Especially not considering anyone in advance knowing of an arrest about to happen can purposefully or inadvertently tip off the person being arrested the police are on their way.

 

[aerie]

Getting receipts is great! I like being informed. Getting my job threatened on the sly for asking, not so much.

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I agree, that sly threat wasn't at all cool, but the alt-right is just a successful rebranding of Neo-Nazism, asking for receipts on antisemitic threats after being a hard lined free speech advocate, something they often hide behind, can come across incredibly suspect. The optics on your post and line of questioning looked quite bad. I'm far more in favour of nuanced hate speech laws that are designed to protect those that need it than I am free speech laws that shield the hateful, vile and bigoted, but i am conflicted on this specific case. It seems excessively authoritarian, but i am not opposed to government action in situations like this. I need to think on this more, its why i've remained quiet despite following this story and this thread so far.

EDIT: I'm going to post my thought process. Jail time seems excessive, i'm not a big fan of jail for low level none violent/none-sex crimes, i think a fine would be more appropriate and fairer on the tax payer, what he said was reprehensible, its more than just teaching his dog these tricks, taking the entire context of him and his actions into account is important. This is not "just a joke' or "just words". I'm in favour of deplatforming and snuffing out of racism/racists especially in todays climate, its one part to limiting the spread and reach of bigotry and reducing hate based violence. Not all speech is the same, not all speech is protected. There is plenty of speech the American first amendment doesn't actually protect (i'm not American, i'm sure we're all aware of this, i just feel its something that needs to be repeated a lot these days).

 

[Bricktop]

The only way you could think that this is an issue is if you thought all speech was equal and that it all must be defended under the banner of speech.

It isn't. And it shouldn't. Certain areas of speech are not, nor should they be, up for defense. You are making a mistake lumping all speech together.

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Right, thats the *only* way. /s

And you're making the mistake of thinking that whatever these governments deem "inappropriate" speech can't and won't change. Legislating speech is nonsense, and one of these days someone you agree with is going to get caught up in this mess and you guys will change your tune.

 

[Wiped]

This is bullshit and should have been laughed out of court. This sets up such a bad precedent legally, not just for the UK, but any commonwealth country. Disgusting. Now people will be going to jail for jokes. What has this world come to...

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Did you watch the video? He broadcast, to the world, these statements: "do you like gassing Jews? Do you like gassing Jews boy? Like gassing Jews?' Repeatedly while speaking to the dog, which then does a Heil. I mean... doing it in private may not get you prosecuted but recording it and publishing it constitutes hate crime.

 

[Chief Malik]

Good, now suffer

 

[Deleted member 888]

Right, thats the *only* way. /s

And you're making the mistake of thinking that whatever these governments deem "inappropriate" speech can't and won't change. Legislating speech is nonsense, and one of these days someone you agree with is going to get caught up in this mess and you guys will change your tune.

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Look up the #killallwhitemen topic on GAF. Still a few saying being arrested was suitable, but others seemingly find it easier to state people who's political backgrounds they like shouldn't have the Government remove their rights over offensive speech (if there is context/credibility to it not being literal). Even with that woman wearing a tshirt advocating for violent anarchy, a little bit of sense has to go into determining if someone is an actual threat. Jail time should be for credible threats. Even though she was arrested I think that case was eventually dropped.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Legislating speech is nonsense

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The only reason you're asserting this is because of a batshit insane appeal to a slippery slope fallacy. And if "someone I agree with gets caught up in this" and I "change my tune", I wont be changing my tune because I don't fucking treat all speech as equal.

 

[Bricktop]

The only reason you're asserting this is because of a batshit insane appeal to a slippery slope fallacy.

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Yeah, it's completely batshit insane to think governments and general attitudes won't change. Because that's never happened in history, much less the modern times, right?

Are you serious?

The guy is a shitheel, the things he said he should be taken to task for. Past that bringing the government to prosecute is laughable.