1. LL_Decitrig

    LL_Decitrig
    Member

    It's not as if this phrasing were novel. Grossly offensive behaviour is routinely criminalised in many jurisdictions.

    "Gas the Jews" is a phrase directly referring to genocide, so it's wrong to assume it's about hurting somebody's feelings. There are some ideas that are abhorrent, never again to be countenanced. Not because of somebody's feelings, but because we remember what happened last time such ideas became fashionable and hip to joke about.
     
  2. Shao Kahn

    Shao Kahn
    Member

    I'm interested to see how this all plays out. Y'all are cool. <3
     
  3. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    An individual liberty or right to tell offensive jokes about tragic events in history isn't immunity from being criticised, lambasted, boycotted, banned from private services or even fired from your work. Didn't Larry David take a battering for a holocaust joke last year? He certainly wasn't arrested [but yes, I know, he's in America, not the UK].

    The difference between facing consequences and actually having the state arrest you is the crux of this debate. When does or should being offensive [when there isn't genuine incitement/personal targetting] turn into being arrested?

    That is essentially why some comedians jump on board this case, and it's again not necessarily a personal endorsement of Markus Meechan as a person. It is to be involved in the debate of when is it okay or should it be okay for the state to arrest you for being offensive? Or grossly offensive as the charge is.

    Meechan's video didn't target anyone specifically, didn't ID anyone and as flimsy as you want to say it is, he did say at the start of the video the purpose of the video was humour/joke and to piss off his girlfriend by turning the dog into something disgusting. That pushes the video to the fringes when it comes to context and intent, which the court is saying you don't decide, we do. The whole thing has multiple layers to debate.
     
  4. LL_Decitrig

    LL_Decitrig
    Member

    It's a debate we've been having in the UK for at least half a century now. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think "gas the Jews" is well over the line of being grossly offensive.
     
  5. Branu

    Branu
    Banned Member

    Thread's a shitshow because many people disagree with his take on this idiot's conviction? One can be thorough in their rationalization and still wrong.
     
  6. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    If it is that trigger line specifically, what happens if a standup comedian uses it in a set? Does that (or should it) warrant an arrest simply because the specific words "gas the Jews" are uttered? Irrespective of any context given by said comedian?

    I think saying "gas the Jews" is grossly offensive, but I'm not convinced the Government should be arresting things that are grossly offensive unless there is clearer intent that the purpose was to rile up hatred, target someone specifically or something a bit clearer in purpose than this video. Which really was an asshole trying to be edgy like many assholes try to be using the internet.
     
  7. Branu

    Branu
    Banned Member

    A tattoo a failed Soviet state is more distasteful than mocking the death of 6 million Jews? Really?
     
  8. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    He's also got a Half-Life tattoo, so Gabe has some answering to do

    [​IMG]

    The guy used to be a communist by his own admittance, but that is completely irrelevant to the Nazi pug video. It probably serves more as an indicator the guy's brain is a shitshow.

    Someone probably will point out this however

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union
     
  9. Shao Kahn

    Shao Kahn
    Member

    To add a little context to this thread, here's his response when this video went viral.

    http://genjutsu-01.tumblr.com/post/143436926723/an-explanation-of-what-actually-happened-the


     
  10. Alice

    Alice
    Member

    They're a laughing stock, no one's taking them seriously, and they have no sway in any policy because the entire government is opposing them, even the right wing.

    Saying the AfD is worse than Trump is completely ignorant.
     
  11. M1chl

    M1chl
    Member

    Yeah and I am Czech Guy, we suffer greatly under Nazi Regime (Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia), but at least we killed Reinhard Heydrich, so at least something... And we don't have some shithead like Winston Churchill, so I am not sure what you are implying, it's not like UK is innocent (well in grand scheme of the history, UK is pretty shitty country). So not sure what you implying here...

    Well, I am glad we can agree on something. But I want to just pointed out, that not everyone living in USA and here is 15:19 aka 3:19pm. So I am not really ranting in the late night : )

    Well I would agree with this point, if the intent of the video would be to actually "gas the jews". But as far as I am aware, he first first words was to "teach his dog, the least cute thing he can think off", which shows the intent of the video to be edgy as fuck, for sure, but I don't think that he done any hate crime. I think the words needs context and intent and I think that context and intent is overlooked in here.

    Communism is very much alive and well in the world sadly and it killed far more people than Hitler could ever dream off (not one man necessarily, but whole regime all over the globe). But still as far as I know Stalin and Mao Zedong killed each more people than Hitler. Not specific group of people, but that does not make it any less horrible. And let say, should I pointed out, that it was for me more distasteful, because my family suffered greatly under that regime. It's not like I am saying the Nazis were better, not at all... I am probably from one of those countries which suffered both regimes. Just Nazis were done pretty fast, but USSR lasted for a long time.

    And again it's not like only Jews suffered casualties under Nazi regime, sure they are biggest single group, but the hatred went further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims (but this has nothing to do with the video, just as an information)
     
  12. Shao Kahn

    Shao Kahn
    Member

    Lol! That's cool, timezone ain't stopping us! :)
     
  13. M1chl

    M1chl
    Member

    Not saying that they do : ) Seems like not stopping you from browsing Era on the late night....well, it's not like I am not doing it too, but I have few hours to go : )
     
  14. Shao Kahn

    Shao Kahn
    Member

    LOL good point! Stay frosty my friend.
     
  15. Deleted member 11995

    Deleted member 11995
    User requested account closure Member

    Here's my take. I think jail time is a step too far. We can't run around locking people up just for saying some nasty shit. That's crazy.

    But anything up to that? Go nuts. Kick him off YouTube. Delete his account and ban him from creating another. Charge him. Drag his ass to the court. Fine him. I'm struggling to locate any of my fucks to give.
     
  16. Shao Kahn

    Shao Kahn
    Member

    Agree.
     
  17. Spuck-

    Spuck-
    Member

    He stated as such in his debate with Destiny, that he believed in an ethnostate. Oh and he's constantly reposting and liking British far right figures on his twitter.

    Or he was, now he's in jail lol
     
  18. Spuck-

    Spuck-
    Member

    Talk your MP then, the breach of the communications act he was done for has been around for 15 years.
     
  19. Hodgy

    Hodgy
    Member

    and with no surprise this is now the way this is perceived

     
  20. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

  21. Paul

    Paul
    Member

    Tom Walker is absolutely on point. I hope that judge sees the video, not that I expect him to change his mind, that would be too idealistic.
     
  22. nillansan

    nillansan
    Member

    Thanks for going through the trouble of breaking down the numbers, appreciated. I thought that you were alluding to a new trend occurring outside of white supremacist groups that somehow undermines some of the points raised in the thread. To me it was unclear what narrative you were specifically referring to.
     
  23. Crocks

    Crocks
    Member

    Anyone who thinks this is a good thing is mental imo.
     
  24. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    LMAO

    professional "British lefty reporter"
     
  25. Volimar

    Volimar
    Moderator

    So I've been seeing around social media that he's apparently taken up the cause and seems to consider himself on the front lines of what he calls overreaching laws on hate speech. He seems to have quite a bit of support in the UK, though these days perception isn't very easy to trust.
     
  26. excelsiorlef

    excelsiorlef
    Member

    Weird that the focus is hate speech because hate speech laws were not used here.
     
  27. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    Of course, an egotistical douchebag sees himself as a martyr, but the video above does state in a humorous way why it can be a bi-partisan issue even if Tommy fucking Robinson is swirling the drain.
     
  28. Volimar

    Volimar
    Moderator


    I'm guessing that's the easiest way to dumb it down for consumption.
     
  29. excelsiorlef

    excelsiorlef
    Member

    Weird because you coukd eliminate UK hate speech law (bad idea) and still this guy would have bern tried
     
  30. Musha_Soturi

    Musha_Soturi
    Member

    I love Jonathan Pie
     
  31. Carl2291

    Carl2291
    Member

    Jonathan Pie hits the nail on the head yet again.
     
  32. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member



    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/fee-count-dankula/21238
     
  33. Cybit

    Cybit
    Member

    No problem. The data can be interpreted in many ways, some more intellectually honest than others (a sign behind my desk is "if you interrogate the data long enough, you can get it to confess to anything"). I'm not fluent enough in the qualitative knowledge to try to make causal relationships out of correlations - hence why I would defer to other groups about that. Plus, it's worth trying to remind folks that groups aren't singularly hate focused - a group can be anti-semitic and anti-black and anti-government - and that can lead to weird effects where one group feels extremely targeted by virtue of a host of various groups that have that one group in common all simultaneously rise. Things like that are important to understanding context and keeping perspective. It is easy to only look at the last 4 months (especially considering how crazy the news cycle is) and think it's a long-term thing going on, because it feels like forever.
     
  34. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    Stuff like this is slightly humorous



    And then there is the trans related slur



    Remember everyone, your twitter history will be trawled through. It's not to say Nick can't have an opinion on the Markus Meechan case and Ricky Gervais commenting on it, but remember the speech rights that allowed you to post what you do on your twitter account without being arrested.

    But to make this circular instead of just invoking twitter-drama, citizens do have to question what will the police arrest for under the label of "grossly offensive" and what will they allow UK citizens to post on the likes of Twitter and YT without arresting? You can go back to asking why wasn't PDP arrested, but Count Dankula (such a cringey avatar name) was?

    The Scottish courts do have some devolved powers over the English courts, so I guess one could say it was Scotland deciding to mobilize the police to arrest for this, whilst England didn't send anyone to knock on PDP's door.
     
  35. Karasseram

    Karasseram
    Member

    It was a stupid joke. Are we really going to jail people for stupid jokes?
     
  36. Apparently the judge stated they had to outright ignore the context of the video to charge him.
     
  37. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    Not that they ignored the defendants claim of context, but that they said in a court in Scotland the court decides the context

    The reason that riles people up is lots of comedy is subjective. This is a seriously offensive video, but people can laugh at different things and it doesn't necessarily mean if someone, in context, laughs at an offensive joke, they are instantly a bigot or a piece of shit. The courts have basically said that depending on the judge you have in the chair, because there was no jury here, that judge's subjective opinion on comedic context is all that matters, end of. It doesn't actually matter what you intended.
     
  38. LL_Decitrig

    LL_Decitrig
    Member

  39. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    I gathered the site was a bit of a riot, but that single article is fine, and the guy that wrote it is apparently the co-writer for Jonathan Pie, which is a video featured above.

    For something slightly different, but related to Governments judging/criminalizing satire/humour, this video is brilliant

     
  40. LL_Decitrig

    LL_Decitrig
    Member

    Yes, Scottish courts have been devolved since the Union was created over 300 years ago. Even before the recent devolved government the laws of Scotland are separate, with many bills in Westminster creating law for England and Wales which was then duplicated, with appropriate adaptations, in Scotland by a UK government department known as the Scottish Office. The Scottish Office was abolished in 1999 when the Scottish Parliament took over its powers.

    I believe under the Scottish legal system it's the Procurator Fiscal who decides on criminal prosecutions. In England and Wales prosecutions are brought by the Crown Prosecution Service.
     
  41. Djkhaled

    Djkhaled
    Member

    No one in their right mind would want to leave the UK to live in America and have no cheap healthcare or decent social security.
     
  42. Hank Hill

    Hank Hill
    Permanently banned for usage of an alt-account. Member

    Great video.LOL.
     
  43. DrFurbs

    DrFurbs
    Member

    Perfect response by Johnson Pie. Makes a mockery of the judge.

    Ps, what's wrong with being offended?
     
  44. Noroi_Kisaragi

    Noroi_Kisaragi
    Banned Member

    good point.
    still, the dilemma remains
     
  45. Dunno if I agree about legal action but based on his twitter I have zero pity or care for his case.
     
  46. D65

    D65
    Banned Member

    Hmm...

    lol
     
  47. Ravensmash

    Ravensmash
    Member

    Well it'd be interesting to see if this case acts as a precedent, with more convictions coming through the courts.

    And that won't necessarily be a person you disagree with - but the same law would be applied .

    My biggest concern is with the judge saying that the court will decide the context/that its irrelevant.

    As the satirical video above says - if you ignore context then even reporting on the case 'could' be in breach of the law.
     
  48. EightBitNate

    EightBitNate
    Member OP

    Everyone should be this angry.
     
  49. Audioboxer

    Audioboxer
    Member

    It's unlikely universally liked, or even well liked people will be the kinds of people that test the limits/lines here. It's not as if any decent bastard from this forum is going to be the kind of person getting arrested. Or I doubt it. It's more likely to be someone who acts like an arse in public, whereas most of us probably have jobs we value and don't spend any time uploading bollocks onto YouTube. Because we don't want our friends, family, work colleagues and the wider public to think we are cunts.

    Unless a Government goes totally authoritarian and brings in blasphemy laws and anti-dissent laws around said Government being criticised, the average person is not going to be the person making the news for a "grossly offensive" charge.

    That being said you probably can pluck some people from here https://wiki.openrightsgroup.org/wiki/Communications_Act_2003/Section_127 that were arrested and didn't go viral like this with a 3 million+ YouTube video, that might be far more decent people than Markus Meechan. Until you trawl someones public social media accounts, you don't always really know how much of a prick they might be.

    But the reason many of those speaking out about this who are famous or semi-famous are highlighting it's not necessarily about liking or even agreeing with 99% of what Meechan says/does, is because that is how freedom of speech/expression is ultimately defended in fringe cases. Potentially speaking out about cases around people you don't actually like. The majority of the public will find this incredibly challenging to do, because they don't want to be associated with Meechan, or have accusations they are defending/supporting Meechan.

    I don't particularly think the majority of people, especially some of the larger famous people who've spoken up here, have visited Meechans twitter account and thought, yeah, this dude is some real class gentleman. If he had just been fired from his job, girlfriend had left him, parents disowned him and he went viral, I doubt some of the names you see speaking up would be anywhere near this. It's because the Scottish Government/police have convicted and charged him, pending sentence, for the video. It's not really a question about if you like Markus Meechan, it's about whether you think the Scottish Courts stating context is decided by them, and this video is both a chargeable offence and something for the UK to block UK citizens being able to see, is an appropriate Government use of legislative/legal power.
     
  50. shan780

    shan780
    Member

    I'd like to see a big news channel like sky or BBC pick this up

    I watched the video when it first went viral, and just the idea of the guy that made it going to jail is incomprehensible to me. it seems to me that it's an attack on free speech and sets a pretty dangerous precedent.

    Ricky Gervais has been quite vocal about this on twitter. I've been watching his most recent stand up, and he says things in it that could be considered way more offensive than this. I don't even know where the line is anymore