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Manga |OT|: No matter how I look at it, it's discord's fault we're not popular
- Thread starter dramazen
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Here Lotus
Julius Novachrono the current wizard king is reveled to be alive and is now just a 13 year old that seems to retain all his memories from before.
In this arc the major event is him sacrificing his life to save his citizens and stop the villain from destroying the city, which is actually a really good moment, sets the tone for the coming arc and is really good and has an effect on characters like Yami, but nope hes alive
It be like if in Naruto the third hokage came back after the Sound Village attack just having got a scar or that Whitebeard was actually alive and survived the attack by the Blackbeard Pirates and he was snuck out in an elaborate ploy
In this arc the major event is him sacrificing his life to save his citizens and stop the villain from destroying the city, which is actually a really good moment, sets the tone for the coming arc and is really good and has an effect on characters like Yami, but nope hes alive
It be like if in Naruto the third hokage came back after the Sound Village attack just having got a scar or that Whitebeard was actually alive and survived the attack by the Blackbeard Pirates and he was snuck out in an elaborate ploy
Are you caught up
(Black Clover spoilers)
If so here's the summed up version
Julius is alive
If not
this series equivalent to the third hokage and jiraiya, at the start of his arc died in an epic fight sacrificing this life, his death was on screen and acknowledged by everyone, it set the tone for this arc having the stakes raised and the tension grow, most BC fans we're bragging about that about this arc, saying it was the best Shonen arc coming out now because of that, turns out no one died, the third hokage comes back in the end only turned into a kid
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These spoilers will help save you from not reading the series :P
Wow, fuck everything about that.
Not enough to drop it, but way to show the story has no stakes.
Don't know if this is the right place or if I'm even allowed to mention it, but Sad Panda is shutting down in less than 12 hours from now.
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Yugami-kun Doesn't Have Any Friends 1-73
What a great and funny manga. All the subplots and small hints towards other subplots made it really enjoyable especially with a good and quirky cast. Definitely recommend to anybody looking for slice of life that's a little different as long as you don't expect romance which it used to be tagged with I believe. Too bad it has ended already but it looks like it'll leave off at a good note.
What a great and funny manga. All the subplots and small hints towards other subplots made it really enjoyable especially with a good and quirky cast. Definitely recommend to anybody looking for slice of life that's a little different as long as you don't expect romance which it used to be tagged with I believe. Too bad it has ended already but it looks like it'll leave off at a good note.
Hope viz does the murata and matsui one shots that are in the coming issues.
Hinomaru Zumou 250 End
Really enjoyed this series. The two semi finals matches felt a bit rushed to me, and I could have used a more significant scene between Ushio/Shunkai and Ushio/Reina, but otherwise it was a satisfying ending. Not unusual for sports series to end shortly after the final match. Jino was a great end game opponent. Glad we got the pro arc, series was able to go in some interesting directions that were a pretty big departure from the high school portion. Stands on its own pretty well with the difference in tournament structure as well. Will be sure to check out whatever work comes next from Kawada!
Wonder what mangaplus does with their chapters now, as they usually remove them a couple weeks after they are first released. Are they just gone for good once they get taken down or will they put them back on later on?
Hinomaru Zumou 250 End
Really enjoyed this series. The two semi finals matches felt a bit rushed to me, and I could have used a more significant scene between Ushio/Shunkai and Ushio/Reina, but otherwise it was a satisfying ending. Not unusual for sports series to end shortly after the final match. Jino was a great end game opponent. Glad we got the pro arc, series was able to go in some interesting directions that were a pretty big departure from the high school portion. Stands on its own pretty well with the difference in tournament structure as well. Will be sure to check out whatever work comes next from Kawada!
Wonder what mangaplus does with their chapters now, as they usually remove them a couple weeks after they are first released. Are they just gone for good once they get taken down or will they put them back on later on?
I don't know why people say they quit Black Clover when the whole thing was SUPER foreshadowed.
It was just a matter of time for me and I am glad that it worked like this. Also now he is true to his name too. What surprises me that he has a page of Grimoire even though he is not even 15 years old
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I haven't read the latest chapter but I'm struggling to remember when Black Clover had any stakes or long lasting ramifications. Like most shonen, everyone just kind of bounces back, recovers, and forgives each other and goes on to the next super powered bad guy. That was literally what this arc was filled with.
Yeah, so I thought the one death we had, the one guy in the series that actually had death flags set up, would hopefully stay dead. Made sense thematically too.
But he didn't.
Even Naruto had the balls no keep the 3rd Hokage dead to advance the story. The did end up making him a zombie but that was like 10 years of manga later. BC can't even keep their equivalent dead for a whole arc.
Why have you only seen the death flags and not the
obvious revival flags that he also told the audience directly by saying "Nya I aint dying till I see the future I want to see" plus his mark on his forehead which had his own panel when he "died"
Black Clover is just a badly written series, your best bet is to hope for decent looking action
Also it was obvious that death wouldn't stick, it just took waaaaay too long for it to come back into focus
I didn't see/remember the forehead stuff and I took the "I won't die until I see the future I want to see" as another death flag. The way a sergeant saying "this is my last mission before retirement" is normally a death flag.
Honestly, I don't really care if it was foreshadowed or not. Knowing it was foreshadowed doesn't make me any more a fan of this plot development, especially when his "death" is one of the better parts of the series. Apparently even the anime has his "death" being one of their best episodes.
It just irks me that people think that this whole plot point is stupid when we had evidence that something is up here where as people with One Piece going "WOAH Oda is such a god person for foreshadowing all those things all along!". It's like...Black Clover is not allowed to hold on the Shounen tropes. I trust in Tabata to not fuck this one here up and that he has a plan for all of this. It's not like that kid is able to do much wizardy stuff anymore.
I wouldn't necessarily call Black Clover terrible, but it does hit all the tropes and doesn't at all try to shy away from any of it.
You should've been able to tell that things would revert back as soon as Asta got that power to reverse the elf possession. Like I want to say it's been six months or so of treading water waiting for the inevitable to happen and the good guys to win.
You should've been able to tell that things would revert back as soon as Asta got that power to reverse the elf possession. Like I want to say it's been six months or so of treading water waiting for the inevitable to happen and the good guys to win.
The revival retroactively makes the whole arc worse than it already is, this whole Manga is now filled with fake tension, like Asta breaking arms "forever" only to heal them a few chapters later with little consequences to an important character "dying" so there can be tension in an arc only for the character to be brought back in the end. Black Clover is in a period where no one knows where it goes from here and this chapter kills any interest me seeing where it goes I already now know they're all going to be fine and it's all just going to be more out of nowhere power escalation villains. I originally dropped this Manga when they were focusing on the Pedophile guy that wants to fuck his little sister, him, Asta, and Yami were able to defeat someone who was being built up as the main big bad guy so at that point I lost faith in the manga producing a serious threat but people told me to get back on the train, that it gets good, I wish I didn't
People call Oda out the time for not killing characters, we have memes like Pell for crying out loud, the difference here is Julius isn't a Pell, he's more like a Whitebeard or Ace
The best solution is to not even read or watch it. Skim it for Chrome skip other chapters otherwise.
Id suggest instead reading Tokyo Shinobi Squad or Beast Children.
Black Clover 214
I'm ok with Julius surviving. I mean his power is time so it at least makes sense and was foreshadowed a bit according to the discussion on reddit
Oda gets shit on when he refuses to off his characters with Pell being the prime example.
Also the foreshadowing he is praised for is usually for events and not necessarily people.
Nah this is bullshit, people call out Oda all the time for not killing characters and weaking the tension and emotional weight of scenes, hell now Oda is killing more characters like Yasuie and others.
Call bullshit out, its bad when Oda does it and bad with Tabata. Like this is a bizarre attempt to defend Black Clover.
Along with the above comment when Oda foreshadows stuff its usually for events and character moments not for this.
I figured something weird went down in Black Clover when my friend pressed me to read the scans but didn't expect such controversy. For whatever it's worth, I don't mind it at all.
(This is much longer than I thought it'd be so I'm tagging it so you won't have to scroll much if you don't care about BC)
Or here's another, much simpler way to look at all this. Imagine you have a game, or maybe you're watching the 4-part movie, (and this is purely theoretical, I'm not spoiling...anything..at all...) where you start the game and you are told "Memento Mori. Remember you will die". Then you play through this long game and you're probably not starting new save files every so often and seeing the beginning again because there's not much reason to do that with a game. But you reach the end of it and woah...you died. Maybe if you forgot, this comes as a surprise. But if some way or another, through a new playthrough or conversation, you are reminded that you were told at the beginning "Remember you will die.", can you fairly complain about it? Can you say you were not told to prepare for it? Or even if you had a different interpretation of those words (like maybe you didn't think it was actually referring to the character), still can you deny it's coherence now that you're presented with the full story?
This is why it can be helpful and fun to re-read/watch things you enjoy (and anecdotally I've been doing a lot of that recently, sometimes immediately going back to Ep 1 of a series I just finished if it's short). Because if you don't much care for something, then I wouldn't tell you to waste your time doing it again but if you care about something, sometimes its true strengths or the answers to lingering doubts become evident by seeing everything again.
(And also your sentence actually means that the "saving" that's being done is actually to push Lotus towards Black Clover)
(This is much longer than I thought it'd be so I'm tagging it so you won't have to scroll much if you don't care about BC)
In terms of simple fondness, I love Julius so I'm happy he's alive.
In regards to what this means for the story, I have absolutely no problem with Julius specifically being alive and in fact believe it makes the story stronger.
To me, looking at Julius' case alone, divorced from everything else in the story, I'm cool with this because:
First, his defeat served its purpose.
This is why I'm "cool" with Julius being alive. On its own, it is something that I'm indifferent to story-telling wise. I don't believe death is some sacred thing that makes any moment better or anything and I just see this as something that is not a positive, not a negative, just a thing.
(Also I don't want to pretend that Julius' death would've been without its issues/weaknesses considering his death was only known to 2 people, and one of them learned towards the end, so it wasn't a huge driving element of the conflict and there wouldn't have been a fully satisfactory successor considering Yami doesn't seem like the type to be WK, Fuegoleon was out for months and it's barely been a day since Nozel realized that commoners are people. Also, the contest is that multiple characters are a part of is to become the "next" Wizard King, not just a "future" WK. Him dying and being replaced now would've weakened the growing rivalry that Asta is a part of since he wouldn't be competing with Fuego and Nozel. Though of course there's still time for him to step down)
Now having said all that (and gosh that was a lot!), I actually think his return makes the story stronger as a whole because it's fitting. And so I strongly disagree with this
Like, look at this:
This is something I saw again recently because I've been re-reading the series to see how all of this first saga holds up. You know what this is from? Chapter...9.
So in what is now clear to me is the "Resurrection Saga" of this story, in the "Great Resurrection" arc of this saga, someone using a spell literally meaning "Chrono Resurrection", dying at the start of the Great Resurrection arc and being resurrected at the end of that arc does not at all make less thematical sense then them being dead. EDIT: And like everyone else, he's different too, being now a 13 year old kid and seemingly has been VERY intensely nerfed since his big ass grimoire has only 1 page now. It just strengthens what has been a theme of the series for a while now and if anything, makes the overall story stronger.
EDIT: And also I just realized that with him breaking out of Yami's cocoon ball thing, it might be a reference to that Angel's Egg anime which I only now of cause it apparently inspired Dark Souls 3. If it is and the pieces do fit (I don't know it much so I wouldn't know), then that'd be neat. Or maybe it's just a non-specific "birth from an egg" thing, which is still pretty neat.
Of course, one is allowed to like or dislike anything, regardless of whether it's been foreshadowed or whether it's relevant or whatever (happens even with manga that are more unanimously regarded as great like One Piece with Sabo's existence for example). Those shouldn't mean someone can't like or dislike something. But regardless of one's immediate feelings or interpration of Julius' fate, this development works for the story that was being told. Nothing more. Nothing less.
In regards to what this means for the story, I have absolutely no problem with Julius specifically being alive and in fact believe it makes the story stronger.
To me, looking at Julius' case alone, divorced from everything else in the story, I'm cool with this because:
First, his defeat served its purpose.
- The foretold resurrection happens.
- The most OP dude is out of the way and thus doesn't get to trivialize the efforts of the other characters in the story by just one-shotting anything that looks like a threat.
- It drives Yami throughout the arc.
- It cements Asta as truly virtuous when he learns what Patry did, and thus is put in the same position as Patry was with his leader and idol having been "killed", and holds true to his beliefs of not seeking revenge but rather pushing his enemies to make amends. This is something that Asta has been about for a while now, shown with the fights against Neige and Ladros (and hinted at with his distaste for Heath's suicide in the first arc) and when his convictions are put to the ultimate test, he's still true to himself. (this is kinda true of Yami as well who didn't fall into blind hatred of the elves after what Patry did)
- The next generation that Julius believed in saved the kingdom, despite their leader not being there and their numbers basically being halved at the start of the invasion, and they are the ones to make the biggest strides towards the ideal that he and others before him believed in.
- Julius can rewind time on his body. That much is established towards the beginning of the fight.
- Same Julius, who can see the future, says "Yo I can see your future. You can't win against me."
- The very same Julius also has a special mark on his forehead. You know the mark is special for multiple reasons. First, attention is called to it disappearing TWICE as Julius is "dying". Second, in the page before he "dies", just in case you forgot how Julius looked before, Tabata shows flashbacks of Julius with two instances without the mark and then another one later in time with the mark. So in the same panel that reminds you he didn't always have it, you are shown next to that an older Julius with the mark, just one page before present Julius' mark is prominently shown to be disappearing. Third, the mark doesn't disappear with the casting of the spell that saved the kingdom, essentially saying that it is distinct from "the stores of time and mana" he used up in the fight before that. Fourth, the only other people in the story with facial markings like that are the elves, whose presence break the laws of nature and that effect is tied to the markings. It follows then that Julius with his own kind of mark would have his own different way of breaking the laws of nature.
- Same old Julius also pointed to the sky in the fight to show his grimoire and then as he's "dying", we see the pages start to fade away. But we don't see it completely fade away and it was already known that it's only once a grimoire has completely vanished that you know someone is dead (which is why people were still hopeful for Fuegoleon when his grimoire started vanishing).
This is why I'm "cool" with Julius being alive. On its own, it is something that I'm indifferent to story-telling wise. I don't believe death is some sacred thing that makes any moment better or anything and I just see this as something that is not a positive, not a negative, just a thing.
(Also I don't want to pretend that Julius' death would've been without its issues/weaknesses considering his death was only known to 2 people, and one of them learned towards the end, so it wasn't a huge driving element of the conflict and there wouldn't have been a fully satisfactory successor considering Yami doesn't seem like the type to be WK, Fuegoleon was out for months and it's barely been a day since Nozel realized that commoners are people. Also, the contest is that multiple characters are a part of is to become the "next" Wizard King, not just a "future" WK. Him dying and being replaced now would've weakened the growing rivalry that Asta is a part of since he wouldn't be competing with Fuego and Nozel. Though of course there's still time for him to step down)
Now having said all that (and gosh that was a lot!), I actually think his return makes the story stronger as a whole because it's fitting. And so I strongly disagree with this
and the reason for that is, among the things that could be called themes of Black Clover, or at least this first saga, it's now clear that one of them is "Resurrection" or "Death and Rebirth". Cheating death because there is more for you to do while not being the same person is basically the point of all these 214 chapters, and Julius' return here is just a part of that (and a good conclusion of it I believe):
- The elves and Lumiere die 500 years in the past.
- Patry dies 500 years in the past. Is sent to the future by the devil and is resurrected. He's different because he's tied to a human and wants revenge and is under the malicious effects of the forbidden magic. Sets in motion the events of the first saga.
- Vetto, Fana and Raia are resurrected, each as their respective human hosts were on the brink of death, by Patry and help with his plan. They also want revenge and are under the malicious effects of the forbidden magic. The first two are defeated. Vetto dies. Elf Fana leaves and Human Fana is reborn.
- Patry gets the magic stones, sacrifices the Midnight Sun, begins the Great Resurrection.
- All the elves come back. Are under the malicious effects of the forbidden magic (and with Elf Rill we see that they really dislike that)
- Rades is reborn and revives Sally and Valtos. All three have now had their life's ambition crushed and decide to work towards new goals.
- Vetto and Elf Fana are reborn in articifial bodies.
- The Word Devil is reborn and now gets both a body and a 5-clover grimoire because of Patry's corruption.
- Lumiere is reborn, is now a statue and can affect beings from the underworld.
- Licht is reborn through Nero's sealing magic and can affect beings from the underworld.
Like, look at this:
This is something I saw again recently because I've been re-reading the series to see how all of this first saga holds up. You know what this is from? Chapter...9.
So in what is now clear to me is the "Resurrection Saga" of this story, in the "Great Resurrection" arc of this saga, someone using a spell literally meaning "Chrono Resurrection", dying at the start of the Great Resurrection arc and being resurrected at the end of that arc does not at all make less thematical sense then them being dead. EDIT: And like everyone else, he's different too, being now a 13 year old kid and seemingly has been VERY intensely nerfed since his big ass grimoire has only 1 page now. It just strengthens what has been a theme of the series for a while now and if anything, makes the overall story stronger.
EDIT: And also I just realized that with him breaking out of Yami's cocoon ball thing, it might be a reference to that Angel's Egg anime which I only now of cause it apparently inspired Dark Souls 3. If it is and the pieces do fit (I don't know it much so I wouldn't know), then that'd be neat. Or maybe it's just a non-specific "birth from an egg" thing, which is still pretty neat.
Of course, one is allowed to like or dislike anything, regardless of whether it's been foreshadowed or whether it's relevant or whatever (happens even with manga that are more unanimously regarded as great like One Piece with Sabo's existence for example). Those shouldn't mean someone can't like or dislike something. But regardless of one's immediate feelings or interpration of Julius' fate, this development works for the story that was being told. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Or here's another, much simpler way to look at all this. Imagine you have a game, or maybe you're watching the 4-part movie, (and this is purely theoretical, I'm not spoiling...anything..at all...) where you start the game and you are told "Memento Mori. Remember you will die". Then you play through this long game and you're probably not starting new save files every so often and seeing the beginning again because there's not much reason to do that with a game. But you reach the end of it and woah...you died. Maybe if you forgot, this comes as a surprise. But if some way or another, through a new playthrough or conversation, you are reminded that you were told at the beginning "Remember you will die.", can you fairly complain about it? Can you say you were not told to prepare for it? Or even if you had a different interpretation of those words (like maybe you didn't think it was actually referring to the character), still can you deny it's coherence now that you're presented with the full story?
This is why it can be helpful and fun to re-read/watch things you enjoy (and anecdotally I've been doing a lot of that recently, sometimes immediately going back to Ep 1 of a series I just finished if it's short). Because if you don't much care for something, then I wouldn't tell you to waste your time doing it again but if you care about something, sometimes its true strengths or the answers to lingering doubts become evident by seeing everything again.
And now it's also not allowed to break them for some reason.
I mean no offense and I realize you're half joking Reyes so feel free to take this only half-seriously, but that's a pretty malicious approach to discussion of art. It's not some granting of grace to tell spoil someone on something because something you dislike happened, as though it's a forgone conclusion anyone else should feel the same.
(And also your sentence actually means that the "saving" that's being done is actually to push Lotus towards Black Clover)
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You can use shonen tropes all you want as long as the execution is good. Black Clover constantly falls flat on it's face by using the shonen tropes in the least interesting ways possible that add nothing to the story.
Dr Stone 115
Oh wow, that was really touching. I actually teared up just a little.
I'm so glad I gave up on Black Clover a while ago. Tabata is such a terrible writer.
Oh wow, that was really touching. I actually teared up just a little.
Bahahahahaha
I'm so glad I gave up on Black Clover a while ago. Tabata is such a terrible writer.
Didn't expect my opinion on BC to be so replied to.
I'm mostly just not a fan of the "big character death, then resurrection" trope. There are exceptions, like when there's an entire arc dedicated to doing it and it comes at a pretty big risk (HxH, though I still have some problems with it here), but I'm not a fan when it's super convenient (dragonballs) or happens off-screen. Despite it apparently being foreshadowed, BC takes the latter approach, so yeah, I'm not fan.
I like my deaths to have finality to it. I know it's my fault for reading shounen, who love that trope, but still. A recent arc of MHA managed to kill someone off and made for a bittersweet finale. AoT does have it's problems with characters surviving some ridiculous stuff, but when a character dies onscreen and is declared dead, they usually stay dead. I can only think of a few exceptions to that, which isn't much when dozens of named character have bite the dust.
I blame the Pain arc in Naruto and Dragonball Z as a whole for my disdain for the trope.
I'm mostly just not a fan of the "big character death, then resurrection" trope. There are exceptions, like when there's an entire arc dedicated to doing it and it comes at a pretty big risk (HxH, though I still have some problems with it here), but I'm not a fan when it's super convenient (dragonballs) or happens off-screen. Despite it apparently being foreshadowed, BC takes the latter approach, so yeah, I'm not fan.
I like my deaths to have finality to it. I know it's my fault for reading shounen, who love that trope, but still. A recent arc of MHA managed to kill someone off and made for a bittersweet finale. AoT does have it's problems with characters surviving some ridiculous stuff, but when a character dies onscreen and is declared dead, they usually stay dead. I can only think of a few exceptions to that, which isn't much when dozens of named character have bite the dust.
I blame the Pain arc in Naruto and Dragonball Z as a whole for my disdain for the trope.
That's fair. I can't really call myself a fan of that either, on a broad level I'm pretty much indifferent to it so it depends on how each story does it. And with my post, my intention wasn't to be like "Here's all this text. Ok you like this now." so I apologize if it came ever came off that way lol.
In AoT's case though, the two examples of that that come to mind (anime-only so I don't know if there's more) felt like they were handled pretty well, especially the recent one.
The Pain arc I was just some dumb kid for that so I didn't mind. I must admit though I would've much preferred if Goku stayed dead in DBZ (mostly cause I'm a Gohan fan) and yet that series is about people coming back to life and so that helps me to understand how the simple fact that something is a "theme" or to be expected doesn't mean everyone automatically has to like it.
I like DBZ, but it's not just that death has no meaning, really very little has meaning. There are wishes, then there are bigger wishes, then there's time skipping and gods and literally nothing has real stakes. Like I doubt any viewers felt any tension at all even during the final tournament arc when the premise was the entire universe could get wiped out. That's fine, but yeah, no stakes at all.
Even before that, most of the tension is because stupid people don't fight to their full potential in the very beginning. Even Picollo does this when he first fights Cell.
I can confirm I indeed didn't feel any tension in the Tournament of Power lol.
There would have been tension of Goten and Trunks were in it.
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