Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,059
True, I suppose, and that's contemporarily and informally known more as a diabolus ex machina, but generally speaking, when gods appeared, they were there to do good or atleast neutral shit. When they did bad shit, that was generally the call to action, like Hercules' labors and so forth.

Anyway, I'm not defining the force at all by strictly DEM at all. We were talking about DEM's, I commented how it's as poorly understood a term as the Force itself, and made a side observation that it's technically a DEM in the classical sense of the word rather than the modern, which started an argument about who would know DEM's in their classical sense, which I argue is "Not that many people" since it's an out-of-use term for a storytelling trope that is actually not that prevalent ever since we stopped believing in actual greek gods, so why WOULD a given modern day person know about it unless they were a scholar or something. Atleast that's what I thought the debate was about, since you were saying people 'all over the world' knew the classic, original usage of DEM as though it were a commonly understood thing, which I feel it's not.
I think I'm starting to get a better feel for your thinking haha. We clearly have very different thought processes and were going at different angles. I understand what you were trying to say now.
 

D.Dragoon

Member
Mar 2, 2018
503
It’s well known that TLJ is divisive. You can continue to be trife about it though.
That super divisive movie that made over a billion dollars at the box office and was the best selling Blu ray of 2018. Divisive would be in the range of BvS or Justice League for this kind of tentpole movie.
 

bixio

Banned
Mar 10, 2019
192
That super divisive movie that made over a billion dollars at the box office and was the best selling Blu ray of 2018. Divisive would be in the range of BvS or Justice League for this kind of tentpole movie.
Mainline Star Wars films have always and will always break box office records. Episode 2 was horrible but it was the best selling movie that year as well. Whereas DC has repeatedly failed for 4 decades, no ones buying those Blu-rays.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
I don't disagree. What annoys me is how the story has been executed thus far and the tendency to demean Luke (different than simply downplaying) in defense of Rey. I hold no special affinity towards Luke, in fact as a template I prefer Rey (let's be honest, neither of them have a ton of characterization), but it rubs me the wrong way to see THAT being a tactic so often resorted to. Granted, goblins are fervently attempting to tear down Rey for far less noble reasons, and in the end the two of them are distinctly not alive, but I digress...
I have to disagree about demeaning Luke.

I don't feel that Rey demeans him at all, while they are two different people, they do still learn from each other.

Mainline Star Wars films have always and will always break box office records. Episode 2 was horrible but it was the best selling movie that year as well. Whereas DC has repeatedly failed for 4 decades, no ones buying those Blu-rays.
So seriously, why not use the IMBD score?

It’s well known that TLJ is divisive. You can continue to be trife about it though.
Just saw this. So you're taking the plugging your ears and denying reality route then? Ok then.
 

Seeya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,034
So, what I am proposing instead is that the force be viewed from the lens of how it informs the story. That's how it was actually originally used in the first place anyway. In ANH, Luke wanted to learn about the force because his father was a jedi knight, so the force, as a storytelling device, was him becoming his own man by taking the role his father left. In ESB, the force became somewhat hostile to towards Luke, plaguing him with nightmare visions, informing the audience not just in terms of foreshadowing of Luke's true lineage, but a manifest representation that the last films idealization of Luke stepping into his idealized father's shoes crumbles in the horrible truth of his father being the monster he was trying to destroy.

Do you see the difference? The force isn't best explained by pedantry of who can do what by how much training. It's about how this magical system represents the inner character of the force user. As such, Rey's ability to out-mindbend Kylo Ren and then use the force mind trick is better explained by her survivor background, intelligence, and intuition than any "she's the chosen one!" nonsense.

Which is also why the Force is such a boring feature of the prequel trilogy. There, it actually is a neutral tool that's used by whoever has the proper training for it. It's like a policeman's gun. It's standard issue, everyone has one, and there is no personal attachment. It's so utilitarian and bland that it never actually informs anything about the character using it. The closest we get is that evil dudes use force lightning while good guys don't and....that's it I think.
I absolutely agree with your perception of the force and its application. This may simply be an impasse, but the stumbling block we keep running into, I think, is your thesis in so far as it relates to justifying Rey's accomplishments. I don't view much appreciable difference between, say, The Force, and... Han Solo, when it comes the elements in a story being in service to a grand narrative.

Because of that I may have a less romantic view than yourself and a lower tolerance for 'transgressions' that to my mind break verisimilitude. To give you an idea, tTo my mind there is still an overall consistency to a discrete element that is, by design, lacking exacting definition or consistency.

By design, is this 'inconsistency' consistently inconsistent enough? Does it truly lack of necessary reason and rhythm to serve its purpose? That's the way I approach even the unknowable in the fiction I create and consume. I have exacting standards.

I'm having a hard time bridging the gap between the Force as a, if you would allow me, 'romantic' element and the degree to which (not how) it justifies the the way the stories have gone as they have with Rey. I absolutely agree that Rey SHOULD be able to accomplish the things that she does in the ST... let me back up for a second and start a tangent.

You describe her in terms I agree with 'survivor' 'intelligent' 'intuition'. The issue being that, not only to I NOT see those qualities reflected in her character throughout the films (despite her being set up with these elements!), I see the worst execution of these concepts when appraising the beats of her character. I see a powerhouse that just 'does things with no idea how she did them (by her own admission at times). Because, for instance, in the mind-bending sequence, I don't see HOW she learns or adapts to Kylo, I don't see the 'survivor', nor the intellect, I don't see HOW she was 'clever' in figuring something out, she just comes across as a savant powerhouse. Which is the opposite of her setup as a character, so it's doubly damaging in my eyes.

This is why I wanted Kylo to be even more visibly injured during their duel than he was, I also wanted to see her fight dirty during the fight, emphasizing the classist contrast between them. I, in fact, would have preferred that she won the fight, not by remembering balance, but by combining her natural aptitude w the force in unconventional ways that harken to her out of the box thinking, and her scavenger background. Only for the nearly dead Kylo to comment that she will make an excellent apprentice. Not to say that she would have beaten him by the skin of her teeth, I think it would have been better had she injured him just as much in the forest as she had prior, just in ways that better highlights her qualities as a character.

To me, that combination of him displaying a ting of arrogance even in defeat, while being more gravely injured, would better preserve him as a villain for her in subsequent films, and her not going 'stock Jedi' to defeat him, would have reinforced her character traits. In a way, the traditional image of the Jedi, and Kylo, are very closely aligned when looked at in terms of a classist lens. Rey would have defeated him by virtue of her self, and it would have doubled as a step on her journey to accepting that her parents were never coming back (as she only said they would, as a coping mechanism, and never truly seemed to accept the reality of the world she lived on, or herself as she was defined by it). But in this telling, she'd be able to (symbolically) found the virtues of it, thereby the self that she had spent her life denying.

It's late and I'm very tired, as well as rambling and repeating myself, so I'll call it here for now. My issue is that, and we agree upon this being the question to ask, 'a wizard is doing something', what they have done thus far comes up far short. The very fact that they had to more blatantly spell out her chosen one status (by means of addressing, not as a justification in and of itself) in TLJ, or spend minus recounting that Kylo was deeply fractured in the finale of TFA, is not to me them pounding the 'dumb audience' over the head, but rather an admission that they did not stick the lander in properly conveying the narrative of those elements. Had they done so, there would have been little need for further clarification that took the step beyond simply recapping events of TFA.

I have to disagree about demeaning Luke.

I don't feel that Rey demeans him at all, while they are two different people, they do still learn from each other.
Oh, I meant how some people on the internet often reinterpret Luke as a near idiot redneck to pacify concerns of Reys feats. Not in the film itself.
 
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bixio

Banned
Mar 10, 2019
192
Just saw this. So you're taking the plugging your ears and denying reality route then? Ok then.
There’s a lot of trolls that hate TLJ online for stupid reasons. There’s also every person you’ve ever met in person who’s seen the movie, and 50% of them didn’t like it. Go ask them and see.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
There’s a lot of trolls that hate TLJ online for stupid reasons. There’s also every person you’ve ever met in person who’s seen the movie, and 50% of them didn’t like it. Go ask them and see.
Or instead of anecdotes, i can provide the IMBD score, which has more votes than RT and Metacritic combined lol.

*edit:

I would also like to point out the irony of trying to use the 50% of people you met card, after first saying you trust user reviews more than critical reception. And doubly so when I point out that user reviews don't back up the opinion from a site that has way more than RT (that got bombed by trolls like metacritic) and suddenly "50% of people you talk to hate it"?

Like I've talked to dozens of people that have seen it, and only one of them disliked it lol.
 
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Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
They made him a coward the entire movie.
Imagine you’re a new Star Wars fan, a 6 years old, never seen any Star Wars stuff and the new trilogy is your start, how would you feel about Han and Luke after these movies? Do you consider them heroes as OT fans did? The first one left his wife and his son, the second one left everyone to die and tried to kill his nephew in sleep.
A one minute scene can’t make anyone hero.
I grew up with the OT. I wore out VHS tapes of the original trilogy growing up. I fell in love with SW well before the prequels were a thing. Luke was my childhood hero.

The sequels did fantastic with the OT heroes, especially Luke. Luke was pitch perfect in TLJ and it honored his character arc from the OT and ended with him having the most heroic moment of anyone in the saga history and it made me tear up (in a good way!) the first time I saw it as a life long Luke fan.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
There’s a lot of trolls that hate TLJ online for stupid reasons. There’s also every person you’ve ever met in person who’s seen the movie, and 50% of them didn’t like it. Go ask them and see.
You call Disney "Di$ney" and insist RJ is not directing another Star Wars film despite it being confirmed and re-confirmed COUNTLESS times as recently as just a few weeks ago.

You are living in a bubble man.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,083
England
I agree, i came to the point in which i can start appreciating the prequels for trying something different.
That is ultimately the most disappointing thing. The sequel trilogy is, so far, a retreading of the original trilogy with zero originality and no new ideas. Even The Last Jedi, which apparently is legally required to be everyone's favourite Star Wars movie, just rips loads of its story beats from Empire.

I would've preferred Lucas' take on a sequel trilogy because at least that guy only ever wanted to do new things. Just think of all the cool shit he squeezed into The Clone Wars and how trippy he would've made a trilogy exploring the Whills. Instead we just get an uninspired remake of the original trilogy whose only selling point is Rey and Ben are amazing together.
 

GayAnimeDad

Member
Feb 13, 2018
1,781
Japan
It’s well known that TLJ is divisive. You can continue to be trife about it though.
Few people are saying it isn’t divisive at all. But it’s not as clear cut as a fifty-fifty split. In general, more liked it than hated it. That’s not trying to downplay the experiences or opinions of those that didn’t like it (and there are a lot of them!) it’s just the truth going by the most accurate metrics we have. IMDB has a larger pool of votes and wasn’t specifically used as part of review bombing campaign the way RT’s was. The Cinemascore is an A. It was one of the highest selling DVDs of the year. Everyone has their own anecdotal stories about who they know that liked what but you can’t use that as a way to measure global opinions.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
This new trilogy is so bad it wouldn't surprise me if they erase it from cannon.
TFA and TLJ are two of the most successful movies of all time.

Disney just built an entire theme park in multiple locations centered around the sequel trilogy. Galaxys Edge is a sequel trilogy theme park. The rides take place between TLJ and IX. Rey, Poe, etc are part of the park and the rides themselves.

You think they build an entire theme park around the sequel trilogy just to throw it all out?

I am sorry but this is an extremely ignorant comment to make that has no basis in reality whatsoever.

I mean you have to be living under a rock if you are unaware Disney has built a massive theme park centered around the sequel trilogy.

The ENTIRE park is centered around the Resistsnce, First Order, and sequel trilogy story line.

I honestly didn’t think it was possible to have a take this far off the mark from reality when it comes to Star Wars.
 
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Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
The Last Jedi, which apparently is legally required to be everyone's favourite Star Wars movie, just rips loads of its story beats from Empire.
1. I would love to see reciepts on the "it has to be your favourite" because the people that like it get a lot of suit from strawman arguments like that :)

2. Oh joy I can't wait to hear the overly boiled down recap of events to prove it does nothing but rehash empire, while ignoring the irony that if you boil any movie down to that level the same will apply.

I would've preferred Lucas' take on a sequel trilogy because at least that guy only ever wanted to do new things. Just think of all the cool shit he squeezed into The Clone Wars and how trippy he would've made a trilogy exploring the Whills. Instead we just get an uninspired remake of the original trilogy whose only selling point is Rey and Ben are amazing together.
Or maybe just maybe something can still do new stuff without going completely batshit with every idea? You're entitled to wanting something completely out of left field sure, but when a movie doesn't meet your (seemingly unreasonable standards considering the ESB comment) you're going to have to get used to people calling you out on it without trying to turn yourself into a victim.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
It’s well known that TLJ is divisive. You can continue to be trife about it though.
You are claiming Disney or (Di$ney as you called them) literally PAID critics to give TLJ good reviews. And thus the critics scores are fake bribed scores.

That is flat earth level delusion. Why do you think anyone would listen to anything you say after that?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,083
England
1. I would love to see reciepts on the "it has to be your favourite" because the people that like it get a lot of suit from strawman arguments like that :)
Oh come on. The narrative folks like Cheebo have been pushing for over a year now is that only a very small, insignificant number of people dislike the movie and any criticism of it is fake controversy and opinions from people who dislike it should be dismissed.

Case in point, the post above mine. Guy says the movie is divisive but Cheebo won't accept that so he's questioning the character of the person who made the statement to dismiss it entirely.

And that's the second time on this page alone.

2. Oh joy I can't wait to hear the overly boiled down recap of events to prove it does nothing but rehash empire, while ignoring the irony that if you boil any movie down to that level the same will apply.
So basically you're unwilling to engage in any discussion that's critical of a movie and would rather just dismiss it out of hand. How very adult of you.

Or maybe just maybe something can still do new stuff without going completely batshit with every idea? You're entitled to wanting something completely out of left field sure, but when a movie doesn't meet your (seemingly unreasonable standards considering the ESB comment) you're going to have to get used to people calling you out on it without trying to turn yourself into a victim.
What new stuff? Please, I would love to know what new stuff the sequel trilogy introduced, but I know you'll just list a bunch of things we've seen in other Star Wars movies and bury your head in the sand the moment anyone points that out.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
Oh come on. The narrative folks like Cheebo have been pushing for over a year now is that only a very small, insignificant number of people dislike the movie and any criticism of it is fake controversy and opinions from people who dislike it should be dismissed.
Actually I believe specifically Cheebo mentions that he does not believe that the split of those that hate it is anywhere near 50/50. Which would make those that hate it in the minority, by literal definition.

ase in point, the post above mine. Guy says the movie is divisive but Cheebo won't accept that so he's questioning the character of the person who made the statement to dismiss it entirely.
I'm not at all surprised that you tried to strawman that argument, because the person Cheebo responded to claimed that the split was at least 50/50 and used the user score of RT as proof. The moment I pointed out the IMBD score (which is significantly larger sample size, and thus harder to fuck with review bombs) being significantly different, the poster literally started on anecdotal evidence to claim as proof of a global trend.

Btw, that also is not saying "TLJ has to be your favorite movie".
And that's the second time on this page alone.
Yes, because one was moving the goal posts so fast he would be giving Usain Bolt a run for his money lol. And again, doesn't prove that statement at all, so again, receipts please.

So basically you're unwilling to engage in any discussion that's critical of a movie and would rather just dismiss it out of hand. How very adult of you.
Hey look! More strawman arguments, how very adult of you! Please enlighten me to how TLJ is exactly like TLJ!
It's cute you think I haven't had this discussion with other people btw

What new stuff? Please, I would love to know what new stuff the sequel trilogy introduced, but I know you'll just list a bunch of things we've seen in other Star Wars movies and bury your head in the sand the moment anyone points that out.
I want you to go ahead and show me the receipts on this behavior too actually! Since it's apparently a habit I have that I wasn't aware of :) as far I can tell it's usually the other way around with people like you.

But sure, would you like me to start in terms of character arcs, motivations, and the general change in direction from where the prequels were going?
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Oh come on. The narrative folks like Cheebo have been pushing for over a year now is that only a very small, insignificant number of people dislike the movie and any criticism of it is fake controversy and opinions from people who dislike it should be dismissed.

Case in point, the post above mine. Guy says the movie is divisive but Cheebo won't accept that so he's questioning the character of the person who made the statement to dismiss it entirely.

And that's the second time on this page alone.



So basically you're unwilling to engage in any discussion that's critical of a movie and would rather just dismiss it out of hand. How very adult of you.

.
Never said no one dislikes it, never said you have to like it to be a fan.

Obviously, there are fans who don't like it. My argument is that I think *most* fans like it (which I think is fairly clear given how its actual real audience ratings were consistently strong and it did great at the box office and home video). Even if it is just 51%, that is still most!

If the actual audience ratings are strong like CinemaScore for a movie. If it does great at the box office. If it then goes on to be the best selling bluray of the year.....I think it is very reasonable to say most people liked a movie.

Most fans liking is a statement based off actual numbers and results of a movie, I think it is a pretty fair assessment based on all the numbers we have. I have no idea why you think saying most fans liking it means I think ALL fans like it and it is impossible to be a fan and dislike it. I have told you multiple times I do not think that but you are very insistent with creating that viewpoint that I do not actually have and have never once claimed to have.


My argument is: The information about the film that we have.....be it the box office, be it the home video sales, be it the audience ratings (the ones that actually require seeing a movie and you can't vote multiple times, the one's studios pay for)...point to a film that was mostly well received in my view. That is it.

I never said no one dislikes it, that you have to like it. I am not sure why you take the possibility that most Star Wars fans liked this film so personally honestly.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
5,083
England
I want you to go ahead and show me the receipts on this behavior too actually! Since it's apparently a habit I have that I wasn't aware of :) as far I can tell it's usually the other way around with people like you.
Weird you say "people like you" because I've actually been quite open and consistent about what I like about the movies and what I don't like. Overall I don't like The Last Jedi and I think it and Episode VII both lack direction and identity, but I give praise where praise is due.

As Cheebo knows, my issue stems from having my opinion (and the opinions of other people who share mine) disregarded because I happen to dislike a movie that a bunch of shitheels pushing an agenda also dislike, despite my reasons being entirely different.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Weird you say "people like you" because I've actually been quite open and consistent about what I like about the movies and what I don't like. Overall I don't like The Last Jedi and I think it and Episode VII both lack direction and identity, but I give praise where praise is due.

As Cheebo knows, my issue stems from having my opinion (and the opinions of other people who share mine) disregarded because I happen to dislike a movie that a bunch of shitheels pushing an agenda also dislike, despite my reasons being entirely different.
I mean you have been very unwilling to engage in discussion about SW for a while now which is disappointing, you have insisted I have said things I have never said over and over and dig in and refuse to actually read what I say. Hell you said it was my fault Lucas quit and that I did not appreciate The Clone Wars lol. Which is quite hilarious given my love of that show.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
622
United Kingdom
You are claiming Disney or (Di$ney as you called them) literally PAID critics to give TLJ good reviews. And thus the critics scores are fake bribed scores.

That is flat earth level delusion. Why do you think anyone would listen to anything you say after that?
You have to wonder what happened to the bribes that were meant to buy critical favour towards The Lone Ranger, the Pirates sequels, Alice In Wonderland, Maleficent....

 
Oct 25, 2017
5,083
England
I mean you have been very unwilling to engage in discussion about SW for a while now which is disappointing, you have insisted I have said things I have never said over and over and dig in and refuse to actually read what I say. Hell you said it was my fault Lucas quit and that I did not appreciate The Clone Wars lol. Which is quite hilarious given my love of that show.
I didn't mean you specifically, but the constant negativity around the prequel trilogy is what burned him out. He wouldn't have sold Lucasfilm to Disney if he hadn't needed to put up with so much hate for well over a decade. We know how passionate he was about the franchise after all and The Clone Wars is still, to this day, the biggest love letter to it. Star Wars fans can be especially vindictive and this is the internet, so you can imagine all the hate the sequel trilogy gets now is nothing compared to what the cast and crew got for the prequel trilogy.

It's kinda amusing we went from terrible movies with great ideas to great movies with terrible ideas, though.
 

Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,096
They made him a coward the entire movie.
Imagine you’re a new Star Wars fan, a 6 years old, never seen any Star Wars stuff and the new trilogy is your start, how would you feel about Han and Luke after these movies? Do you consider them heroes as OT fans did? The first one left his wife and his son, the second one left everyone to die and tried to kill his nephew in sleep.
A one minute scene can’t make anyone hero.
One of the most fascinating things about criticism of The Last Jedi is that people can't move past how the movie made Luke into a failure, while one of the major themes of the movie was learning from and moving beyond your failures.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
Weird you say "people like you" because I've actually been quite open and consistent about what I like about the movies and what I don't like.
Hmmm it is weird! It's almost like I was implying that you tend to ignore actual discussion, then make yourself out to be the victim while simultaneously flinging strawman arguments and accusations against people's character to further avoid it!

Actually that sounds familiar... Oh right, because you did it again, right now, ignoring my entire post trying to go for a single line lol.

As Cheebo knows, my issue stems from having my opinion (and the opinions of other people who share mine) disregarded because I happen to dislike a movie that a bunch of shitheels pushing an agenda also dislike, despite my reasons being entirely different.
Oh really? because just moments ago you were accusing Cheebo of saying that TLJ has to be a persons favorite star wars movie. And as Cheebo pointed out above that's not even the first time you've stooped to stupid accusations.

You try to call me out and claim I don't want to have a discussion and that I'm immature, but it's pretty plain to see that you're projecting so hard you should just point yourself at a screen and make a few bucks airing the next star wars episode.

So yeah like I said, you're free to have your opinions, but don't be surprised when people call you out on bullshit claims such as:

Even The Last Jedi, which apparently is legally required to be everyone's favourite Star Wars movie
or
The narrative folks like Cheebo have been pushing for over a year now is that only a very small, insignificant number of people dislike the movie and any criticism of it is fake controversy and opinions from people who dislike it should be dismissed.

I'm still waiting on those receipts, and especially for this one:
Please, I would love to know what new stuff the sequel trilogy introduced, but I know you'll just list a bunch of things we've seen in other Star Wars movies and bury your head in the sand the moment anyone points that out.
Because I'm one of the posters that has discussed this movie on this forum more than I would say 90%+ of others, so surely you must have an abundance of evidence!
 

GayAnimeDad

Member
Feb 13, 2018
1,781
Japan
Just ignore Winny, she does this every Star Wars thread and doesn’t listen to anyone who answers. No matter what you say he’ll always be the victim and you’ll always be forcing people to like TLJ which is objectively bad.
 
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EhieYovach

Member
Apr 3, 2018
642
That super divisive movie that made over a billion dollars at the box office and was the best selling Blu ray of 2018. Divisive would be in the range of BvS or Justice League for this kind of tentpole movie.
The best response I've seen to this type of thought is that you can look at Star Wars almost like a sports team, just because they are doing poorly doesn't mean every fan is going to give up on them. I haven't really enjoyed any of the new SW films but I still saw them opening weekend and probably will do the same for Ep 9. I'm not hyped for 9 and I don't have high expectations, I'll probably be let down by it but I'm too attached to SW to just give up on it.

So yeah, things can be divisive or disappointing and still be successful.
 

Dhruv_Hanom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
143
The best response I've seen to this type of thought is that you can look at Star Wars almost like a sports team, just because they are doing poorly doesn't mean every fan is going to give up on them. I haven't really enjoyed any of the new SW films but I still saw them opening weekend and probably will do the same for Ep 9. I'm not hyped for 9 and I don't have high expectations, I'll probably be let down by it but I'm too attached to SW to just give up on it.

So yeah, things can be divisive or disappointing and still be successful.
I became thoroughly uninterested in the future of star wars after watching TLJ. I skipped Solo and I doubt I'll be watching Ep 9 in theaters. TLJ kinda closed star wars for me.
 

VonGreckler

Member
Oct 25, 2017
565

Liquidsnake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,060
It's funny how because some of you dont agree with Mark, that now hes a "crazy old man" who doesn't know what hes talking about.
 

TheFuzz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,370
You do realise that you're taking the overall themes/struggles from such vague general perspective means the same could be said about nearly any two movies in the same genre right?

Like dances with Wolves and Shogun have the same theme/premise of "the noble savage" trope, and if you book things down as far as you have, they'd sound exactly the same on paper, despite being significantly different.

Let's look at your points:

1. The villain that is struggling morally does the evil/wrong thing consistently because to him the lightside is what's actually tempting him away from his chosen path.

2. Protagonist that literally didn't want to leave home because she was terrified of not getting to see her family again, and suffers doubt about her place in a story full of living legends.

3.literally not even the same as Han (who was selfish and didn't want to get involved lol). Han never had the issue with leadership, and the most authority he combated was Leia, and briefly telling a rebel he'll see him in hell when searching for Luke.
That’s all well and good, but when they release a new Shogun or Dances with Wolves sequel and tell the exact same story again, then you’d have a point. It’s not the same “themes,” you’re being intentionally obtuse by acting like these two films didn’t literally retell the same stories as their OT counterparts.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Why not go by the imbd score? Because that certainly tells a different story compared to what the alt right trolls that bombed RT would have you think.
Edit: while also having SIGNIFICANTLY more reviews.
You are arguing with someone who insists Disney (which he spelled unironically as Di$ney) literally PAID critics cash as bribes to give TLJ good reviews.

He is a lost cause.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Look, here's the thing that makes talking about the Force in SW so frustrating and why there is never going to be a consensus: People think there are some bedrock, hard rules of the Force that have been established in clear defined terms and they cannot be changed.

What we actually know, for sure, about how the force works is pretty vague and sketchy because the force is both based on and deliberately described as this esoteric, numinous concept. It's supposed to be like trying to describe Nirvana or Enlightenment. It's like being asked to define "justice" or "evil" or "love". These things (metaphysically, anyway) exist and you can talk about these things and you can decide to point to some things that are definitely not it, but you can't write them up in defined terms that account for all instances and even if you could those defined terms wouldn't be applicable to everyone because they're subjective. The force is a sort of meta concept that has been made into a sort of law of physics in the SW universe, but by it's very nature, you can't actually say what it directly is.

That's why whenever it's talked about, it's talked about in these mystic ways. It's an energy, but it also has a will. You control it, but it controls you. It's all around, everywhere, around you, through you, within you. It's life and it's death and it's everything inbetween.

But people don't think that. They think if you get a certain amount of training, well then, obviously you will be will reliably and ably always be able to do use it in the way you were trained to do so. People think it's a physical tool, a calculator, where if you put in a certain equation then the same answer will come out, regardless of anything else. And more than that, they think they've mastered this tool and understand it's inner workings.

The audience does not understand the force. Not you, not me, not anyone, because the force is meant to be ineffable. It's not meant to be understood. Only felt and intuitioned and connected with.

And if you really want to talk about it in definite terms, it's important to understand that it's also a storytelling mechanic. It's based on real life esoteric asian religious beliefs like Wu Wei and Tao, but even if those things exist on some level in real life, the force does not. As such, it being a storytelling device by nature means that the nature of hte force changes with it's writer. It can honestly be anything, which is why it's midiclorians in the PT and light and dark in the OT and Life and Death in the NT. It depends on what the writer wants it to be. This is obstensively true of all narrative elements, but especially true of elements that are intentionally ineffable like the Force.

So in regards to things like Rey turning the tables on Kylo Ren, if you really aren't satisfied with that scene, that's your take and you can have it. However, it's simply wrong to frame the reason for it as it violating how the force is meant to work. True, Rey learning how to use the force while being attacked by it is the first time we see a force user learn how to use the force under such conditions, unlike Luke who had to be instructed for his learning. However, nothing says that it's impossible for someone to learn the force this way, and you can clearly see the narrative structure of how the scene plays out:

Kylo Ren takes off his helmet for the first time, visually showing him letting down his guard because he doesn't perceive a tied up Rey as a threat. He takes his time and toys with her mind. Rey is adament in resisting, pushing back against him however she can, which she is successful in doing so as Kylo Ren cannot get to the information he wants. So he pushes harder, still not seeing her as a threat, but Rey begins to push back and she intuitively starts to feel the cracks. The same way he picked at her insecurities, she can now feel his, and she knows that he wants to and cannot be as strong as Darth Vader. She eventually wins out, which makes sense as Kylo Ren has a far more fragile psyche than she is. We know this because we saw before how he lost his shit whenever something didn't go his way, and it just happened again. Rey put up a greater challenge than he expected and once she got a dig at him in (only one, compared to the numerous digs he got on her), he backed off, showing that for all his bravado and potential force power, he is simply not stable enough to take her on a mental level, atleast not if he's not gonna take her seriously.

Whether you like it or not, the narrative structure of how the scene plays out is sound. Rey sees, learns, and fights. Kylo lets his guard down, gets an unexpected mental blow from it, is shaken and backs off. The force works in terms of emotion and mental framework, which is how it plays out here. We, as the audience, therefore learn more about Kylo Ren's character and the status of Rey. And if you really want to criticize this scene, it's reasonable to do so by construing how it could have told the story it was trying to tell more effectively.

However, most criticism seems to boil down to "The force isn't working how I know it's supposed to" which is a criticism that simply cannot work because no one actually knows how the force works because it's a storytelling device, not a real observable phenomenon you can scientifically observe.
This is a great post. Just wanted to add:
It can honestly be anything, which is why it's midiclorians in the PT and light and dark in the OT and Life and Death in the NT.
One of these is not like the other. One describes exactly the opposite of the way the force is portrayed in the OT and ST (and as you've described it above). It's scientifically measurable bullshit that got rightfully ditched, post PT.

I agree that this is exemplifying one writer's interpretation, but Midis contradict everything we know about the Force and what defines its power.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,059
I agree that this is exemplifying one writer's interpretation, but Midis contradict everything we know about the Force and what defines its power.
Regardless, midichlorians exist in the official SW mythos. They simply haven't been mentioned since the PT. They would explain the physical trait needed for someone to become chosen by the Force, and in which case Rey and Kylo are clearly the two most resonant vessels.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Regardless, midichlorians exist in the official SW mythos. They simply haven't been mentioned since the PT. They would explain the physical trait needed for someone to become chosen by the Force, and in which case Rey and Kylo are clearly the two most resonant vessels.
They're still technically canon, but they've effectively been decanonized in the ST, moving forward. I can all but guarantee you that we'll never hear them mentioned in a mainline SW film ever again.

None of the bolded is mentioned in EP7 or 8. Probably because midis ruin the mythology and mystery of the Force and are terrible as a storytelling device.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,059
None of the bolded is mentioned in EP7 or 8. Probably because midis ruin the mythology and mystery of the Force and are terrible as a storytelling device.
Absolutely. It would be nice if they were referenced again though as an example of how the old Jedi order was flawed, attempting to use a physical trait to determine someone's fitment for joining them.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
830
I feel like not liking every aspect of the movie isn't the same as not liking a movie. As Mark said in the OP's quote:

"You know, I’ll be reading something, and say, ‘What moron said this?’, and then realize, ‘Oh, it’s me.’ They can take selective comments you’ve made out of context and use it to support their argument: ‘See, Mark hated Star Wars!’ ‘Did I?'”

Man is allowed to not agree with every decision made. He did his job admirably, and the movie thrived for it (definitely his best work as Luke).

Meanwhile Frank Oz is pretty clear on his enjoyment of The Last Jedi:

https://www.slashfilm.com/frank-oz-knives-out/

“I love the movie. All the people who don’t like this ‘Jedi’ thing is just horse crap. It’s about expectations. The movie didn’t fill their expectations. But as filmmakers, we’re not here to fulfill people’s expectations.”
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
That’s all well and good, but when they release a new Shogun or Dances with Wolves sequel and tell the exact same story again, then you’d have a point.
What?

How exactly would I have a point then when my point is that despite having similar vague story beats such as: "white protagonist gets sent to different culture and develops a respect for it while climbing cultures social ranks"?

It’s not the same “themes,”
Yeah, the poster was talking about the same story beats, but boiling events down to such a vague degree can be done to literally any movie/story in a similar genre.

ou’re being intentionally obtuse by acting like these two films didn’t literally retell the same stories as their OT counterparts.
While I could see an argument for TFA (despite the DRASTIC character differences), I'm definitely not being obtuse in saying this is not the case for TLJ.


It's funny how because some of you dont agree with Mark, that now hes a "crazy old man" who doesn't know what hes talking about.
Could you provide some receipts for this? I've been through this entire thread by from what I've seen most people that call you out have been pretty consistent on their opinion on Mark, and in fact, I've mostly seen a consensus that having the actors provide input to directors is a key process, and that just because not every idea is a good one, does not mean they should not speak their mind.

I feel like not liking every aspect of the movie isn't the same as not liking a movie. As Mark said in the OP's quote:

"You know, I’ll be reading something, and say, ‘What moron said this?’, and then realize, ‘Oh, it’s me.’ They can take selective comments you’ve made out of context and use it to support their argument: ‘See, Mark hated Star Wars!’ ‘Did I?'”

Man is allowed to not agree with every decision made. He did his job admirably, and the movie thrived for it (definitely his best work as Luke).

Meanwhile Frank Oz is pretty clear on his enjoyment of The Last Jedi:

https://www.slashfilm.com/frank-oz-knives-out/

“I love the movie. All the people who don’t like this ‘Jedi’ thing is just horse crap. It’s about expectations. The movie didn’t fill their expectations. But as filmmakers, we’re not here to fulfill people’s expectations.”
Absolutely, Mark keeps having his words taken out of context to fit the narrative that he absolutely hates TLJ, and he's literally saying it out loud again.

What I do find funny is many of the people doing this then proceed to ignore anything he says or does that counters their point, and often hides behind "Disney is pressuring him into silence!" which is a silly notion. Mark has always been very vocal about his thoughts on movies (it's why we know he thought Luke should have been the new Vader at RotJ). It's one thing I love about him, he's very genuine, and isn't afraid to speak his mind. I don't necessarily agree with everything he's ever said, but I do respect him for being willing to talk about this stuff.
 
Last edited:
Jan 3, 2018
397
So let me get this straight.

It's totally reasonable to you that Luke would somehow figure out force push on his own without ever being told that the force could do ANYTHING like that (in ANH as far as I recall the force was basically entirely metaphysical, it helped guide his actions and obi-wan tricked minds, but had no physical impact)
Not much of a reach here, friend. Luke had guidance from Obiwan to do multiple supernatural things with the force in ANH. I'm really very sorry, but the scene in Force Awakens just seemed a little contrived and took me out of the movie.

But it's not reasonable that Rey figures out she could do a jedi mind trick after:
1. Knowing about jedi and all their powers for her entire life;
2. Getting confirmation from a living legend that everything she heard about the jedi, the force, and their powers are true;
3. Getting a live demonstration from Kylo Ren who was trying to get her to reveal the resistance base; and
4. It's established that your mental belief in the force trumps training in things like ESB
????
Wait, when in the movie does it say she knew about all their powers?
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415

Nikus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,464
France
Well it still weighs on him. From a few hours ago:


Even though I love TLJ, I get it. It's just unfortunate that it fans the flames for the most obnoxious haters crowd.
 

GayAnimeDad

Member
Feb 13, 2018
1,781
Japan
I definitely do agree with him that it’s an awful shame there wasn’t a reunion between the original cast. It was a waste. But in the end it didn’t fit with the story being told, even with Lucas’s original concept. Ford only came back for one movie on the condition that he died, and every draft of episode 7’s plot that we know about involved the search for a disillusioned hermit Luke.

With what the filmmakers had to work with between Ford’s stipulation and the plot, I think the way they handled the cast was fine. It’s just a damn shame that all three couldn’t be together on camera one last time.