Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels

carlosrox

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Oct 25, 2017
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It is not a plot contrivance.

The entire point of the Jedi the entire belief is the force is for knowledge NOT for attack.

Luke did not become a Jedi till he tossed that saber in Jedi. He was not a true Jedi until that moment.

You have missed the entire theme of the saga and only seem interested in surface level badass fights.
When did I say that's all I'm interested in? I specifically said that one scene could have used more than an underwhelming roof collapse.

Do I and others want to see Luke engage in combat one last time and see how good he's gotten? Yes.

It's absolutely a plot contrivance that promoting peace is "the true way" when we all know the series is about war. It's in the fucking name "Star WARS". You and I can say all day that Jedi are about peace and this and that but the series will always have lightsaber battles, combat, death, etc.




If engaging in combat ever again was beneath Luke, why train any Jedi in the use of lightsabers then?

And if fighting is now out of Luke's character, how is quitting and letting his friends die IN his character?
 
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carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,028
Vancouver BC
So Luke was the only Jedi ever then?

Yoda wasn't being a Jedi when he tried to stop Sidious?

How about when Obiwan killed Ponda Baba and Dr. E?

What even is a Jedi then? I guess Rey should destroy her lightsaber then.
 

Cheebo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Yoda wasn't being a Jedi when he tried to stop Sidious?
Yoda's actions in the prequels were portrayed as a mistake, at now following the teachings of the Jedi...you realize this right?

The message of the prequels is the Jedi were not acting in the actual Jedi way. The constant fighting in the prequel era took the Jedi away from who they were supposed to be.
 

GayAnimeDad

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Feb 13, 2018
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Japan
Getting good at "combat" has jack shit to do with being a Jedi though. There is nothing about Luke's character to want to expect him to show off badass fighting skills. That is why he wasn't a Jedi till he tossed aside the saber.
Uh, combat skill is pretty important for Jedi. It’s not the goal and is meant to be for self defense but it’s still pretty integral for them to at least be able to fight. They’re space samurai.
 

Cheebo

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Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Uh, combat skill is pretty important for Jedi. It’s not the goal and is meant to be for self defense but it’s still pretty integral for them to at least be able to fight. They’re space samurai.
Only in defense. And only when all other non-combat options are no longer available. Wanting Luke to go fight a bunch of people to show off new abilities....doesn't fit that at all.

The one we are responding to did not like that Luke in TLJ avoided combat, he wanted Luke to fight instead. Wanting him to fight is the element that doesn't work. The movie showed Luke had an option at succeeding without fighting. Which he did.
 

Gustaf

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Oct 28, 2017
4,665
So Luke was the only Jedi ever then?

Yoda wasn't being a Jedi when he tried to stop Sidious?

How about when Obiwan killed Ponda Baba and Dr. E?

What even is a Jedi then? I guess Rey should destroy her lightsaber then.

there are several times in the clone wars were anakin and obi clash, because obi insist that the jedis being generals and fighting in the front lines contradicts the jedi ways.
 

GayAnimeDad

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Feb 13, 2018
1,781
Japan
Only in defense. And only when all other non-combat options are no longer available. Wanting Luke to go fight a bunch of people to show off new abilities....doesn't fit that at all.

The one we are responding to did not like that Luke in TLJ avoided combat, he wanted Luke to fight instead. Wanting him to fight is the element that doesn't work. The movie showed Luke had an option at succeeding without fighting. Which he did.
Yeah, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a fan to want to see him in a cool lightsaber battle. Him not fighting is the best choice for his character but at the end of the day a lot of people just want to see cool laser swordfights.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,028
Vancouver BC
Yeah, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a fan to want to see him in a cool lightsaber battle.
No, it really isn't. Not sure why people are acting like this sacrilege.

at the end of the day a lot of people just want to see cool laser swordfights.
It's not all I want to see, but in terms of Luke making his return after 30 years, it would have been nice to see him in actual action again.

But apparently I don't know Star Wars or Luke's character or something.

Him not fighting is the best choice for his character
This is also arbitrary/plot contrivance. Again, Luke can do anything they want him to do. Luke could theoretically kill 1000 Sith in a one minute if they made it fit the story. This is fiction, they write what they want to.

Pretending like this was the only way for the movie to have gone down makes no sense at all.

That is only the last option if no other option is available.

Then they could have written that in.
 

Cheebo

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Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
Yeah, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a fan to want to see him in a cool lightsaber battle. Him not fighting is the best choice for his character but at the end of the day a lot of people just want to see cool laser swordfights.
And that is why I think it would be a massive mistake and go against everything Luke represents. Star Wars is not a superhero franchise or Dragon Ball, and for that I am very thankful.

RJ stuck to who Luke is pitch perfectly, and that was a huge relief.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,028
Vancouver BC
Cheebo
Before this movie would you have thought Luke to be someone who quits and abandons his friends and family?

Why people are acting like they saw all this coming doesn't make any sense at all. There's no precedence for some of Luke's actions in this movie.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,153
New Jersey
And that is why I think it would be a massive mistake and go against everything Luke represents. Star Wars is not a superhero franchise or Dragon Ball, and for that I am very thankful.

RJ stuck to who Luke is pitch perfectly, and that was a huge relief.
If we got a scene of Luke using his saber in a fight I really don’t think there’d be any cries of it being “out of character.”
 

Bragg

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Oct 27, 2017
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Arkansas
It is why it was the ultimate Jedi act.
And why it’s such a crummy way for Luke to go out.

The OT proves that the Jedi order, the darkside, the force, non of that is the most powerful thing in the galaxy. It ends with Darth Vader grabbing Space Satan with his bare hands and throwing him in a hole to save his son.

Having Luke go out with an anime power 9000 Jedi mind trick is so flat in comparison.
 

Cheebo

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Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
If we got a scene of Luke using his saber in a fight I really don’t think there’d be any cries of it being “out of character.”
If it was shown in a way to show off "cool new powers" or make him seem badass? Like Yoda in the prequels? Then absolutely yes there would be outcries that it goes against Luke's character.

RJ would never make that sort of mistake, so thankfully it was never even something we had to worry about.
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,153
New Jersey
If it was shown in a way to show off "cool new powers" or make him seem badass? Like Yoda in the prequels? Then absolutely yes there would be outcries that it goes against Luke's character.

RJ would never make that sort of mistake, so thankfully it was never even something we had to worry about.
Luke throwing down his saber is not about pacifism. He’s clearly not a pacifist. It’s about refusing to give into his anger and be an agent of the dark side.
 

Mewzard

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Feb 4, 2018
830
Seriously, Luke's actions at the end of The Last Jedi was the most Jedi way to end his story he could have done. Obi-Wan and Yoda would be proud of him for that.

Teaching, inspiring, truly becoming one with the Force, and fading into it with acceptance.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
Not really. Again, mystics and the like do all sorts of things that aid in their religiousity. Priests pray, monks meditate, they tend to zen gardens or do martial arts.

These are skills you can train yourself to be better at, but the actual goal of these activities from a religious perspective is not to get better at them, it's to free up your mind. Theoretically, a monk who does martial arts could do it for years but not substantially improve, and it wouldn't matter because improvement at that thing isn't the goal. There's a certain mindset that you develop from doing some mundane activity over and over and over and that mindset is what religious people strive for in order to find a sort of inner peace for whatever religious framework they are using.
When I say the use of the force is akin to a talent/skill, you keep saying "not really." But then you compare it to yoga/meditation, which is a skill of the mind, which is learned and practiced. Yes, there is belief involved, but it's not JUST about belief. Yoda wasn't repeatedly telling Luke to "believe." He was saying "you must feel the force flowing through you" or "concentrate" or "you must learn control."

Luke can't lift rocks because he doesn't believe hard enough, which he can't because he's a simple, salt of the earth farmer while Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and therefore can lift rocks. What the pulleys and levers of how they acquire that power actually are is not going to be explained, so there is no point where you can stand and declare "Luke was able to do this because he worked out his brain muscles to that point".
Unlike Luke, Rey is more than willing to believe in the impossible ways of the Force because she believes in Luke as a hero. Hence, aside from her developed skill of observational learning, she would be much more receptive to advice like "Do or do not. There is no try." that a more grounded young Luke would reject if he didn't see these impossible things himself.
Luke doesn't believe in the force because he is a "simple farmer?" He didn't see impossible things? In ANH, didn't he see Obiwan Jedi mind-trick the stormtrooper to letting them past?

From Yoda's wording, Luke could have lifted the X-wing the moment it sunk into the swamp in the first place. Like, within the first hour of getting there. Nothing was stopping him except his own willingness to believe he could do such a thing. And that's what the actual training actually is, stripping away Luke's sense of disbelief.
If Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and is not inhibited by doubt in the force like Luke is, could Rey have lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the bay on Ach-Too?
 

JB1981

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,153
New Jersey
When did I say that's all I'm interested in? I specifically said that one scene could have used more than an underwhelming roof collapse.

Do I and others want to see Luke engage in combat one last time and see how good he's gotten? Yes.

It's absolutely a plot contrivance that promoting peace is "the true way" when we all know the series is about war. It's in the fucking name "Star WARS". You and I can say all day that Jedi are about peace and this and that but the series will always have lightsaber battles, combat, death, etc.




If engaging in combat ever again was beneath Luke, why train any Jedi in the use of lightsabers then?

And if fighting is now out of Luke's character, how is quitting and letting his friends die IN his character?
The flashbacks were not meant to be a deep dive into lore and backstory with extended fight sequences, but done in the style of Rashomon where various perspectives are brought to bear on what happened
 

Figgles

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Oct 30, 2017
1,392
Should I even read this thread? What seemed like minor gripes by one of the stars is now an almost 30 page thread. I’m going to assume it just isn’t even worth it.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
then in the Last Jedi, wouldn't it have been a smarter and safer move to force project to Snoke's ship instead of going there in person?
What?

You do remember that even Kylo told her that such an act would kill her from the effort?

ouldn't she have force lifted all the AT-ATs on Crait right off the ground, or at least disabled the giant cannon? If "size matters not,"
So we're ignoring the fact that Luke himself (the legend she believes in) tells her that he wouldn't be able to stand alone with a laser sword against an army?

And that doesn't even get into how it would cancel out the entire theme and arch of the movie for three characters.

couldn't she have just force-crashed the First Order's ships into each other from the safety of the Millenium Falcon?
This is a pretty poor argument that is pretty quickly covered in TLJ in multiple scenes as explained above lol. Like sure theoretically she could assuming Luke could as well in his prime, thought based on his reaction to the idea of facing the FO alone, it's pretty clear that nothing like that ever happened, so it seems reasonable that Rey would feel like there are limits.

If Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and is not inhibited by doubt in the force like Luke is, could Rey have lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the bay on Ach-Too?
Sure she probably could have done that, not sure what they point of it would be when it's entirely non functional, hell Luke was using a piece of his X-wing as a door for his hut.

Luke doesn't believe in the force because he is a "simple farmer?" He didn't see impossible things? In ANH, didn't he see Obiwan Jedi mind-trick the stormtrooper to letting them past?
You don't see the difference between literally growing up not believing or even hearing of some mystical power, vs growing up hearing tales about a real person that had these powers?

Even witnessing something crazy like the mind trick isn't going to instantly convince someone that they too can do it.
 

Cheebo

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Oct 25, 2017
10,212
Ann Arbor, MI
If Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and is not inhibited by doubt in the force like Luke is, could Rey have lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the bay on Ach-Too?
Almost certainly if she wanted to. She wasn’t a pessimist and full of doubt like Luke was.

Would it matter? The ship wouldn’t be flyable, Luke ripped off part of its hull for his hut.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,409
At the end of the day, the main reason TLJ is so reviled by large swathes of the fanbase still in a state of arrested development is because Luke didn't get out his saber and "fuck people up". That was true in December 2017 and it's true now.

It's not a coincidence that the majority of vocal TLJ haters tend to be vocal prequel lovers, the trilogy rich in fuck people uppery. AKA: their opinions on good filmmaking are worth shit.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
So we're ignoring the fact that Luke himself (the legend she believes in) tells her that he wouldn't be able to stand alone with a laser sword against an army?
1. Why is standing against an army the same as disabling a cannon, which she could do from the safety of the Milennium Falcon? You said she needed no training to use the force because she already believed in the ways of the Jedi and knew all their powers. If she believed she could use the force to move things, why didn't she try to move the AT-ATs or the cannon? Instead she goes and lifts rocks. Do you feel that was a mistake on her part?

2. Luke told her that HE wasn't going to stand against an army by himself and that he cut himself off from the force, he didn't say it was impossible. He also told her he had only seen one other person with her raw power before. Based on Luke's actions and statements, she should believe that she's more powerful than Luke.

This is a pretty poor argument that is pretty quickly covered in TLJ in multiple scenes as explained above lol. Like sure theoretically she could assuming Luke could as well in his prime, thought based on his reaction to the idea of facing the FO alone, it's pretty clear that nothing like that ever happened, so it seems reasonable that Rey would feel like there are limits.
Why do Luke's abilities matter at all in what she can do lol? Theoretically she could, as you admit. Why doesn't she even try?

You don't see the difference between literally growing up not believing or even hearing of some mystical power, vs growing up hearing tales about a real person that had these powers? Even witnessing something crazy like the mind trick isn't going to instantly convince someone that they too can do it.
Veelk said that Luke "didn't see impossible things himself." I'm simply pointing out that he did.
 

Reven Wolf

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,415
1. You said she needed no training to use the force because she already believed in the ways of the Jedi and knew all their powers. If she believed she could use the force to move things, why didn't she try to move the AT-ATs or the cannon? Instead she goes and lifts rocks. Do you feel that was a mistake on her part?
I literally explained this in my first reply to you.

2. Luke told her that HE wasn't going to stand against an army by himself and that he cut himself off from the force, he didn't say it was impossible. He also told her he had only seen one other person with her raw power before. Based on Luke's actions and statements, she should believe that she's more powerful than Luke.
Considering she was inspired, and grew up with the legends of LUKE, who is telling her he couldn't do it, and he was also the one that started training her, yeah no that doesn't make sense.

Why do Luke's abilities matter at all in what she can do lol? Theoretically she could, as you admit. Why doesn't she even try?
You keep ignoring the fact that he is a literal legend. When did I ever say she is completely unrestricted in all her abilities and believes she can surpass the legend she looks up to?

And again, all your suggestions up to this point would literally remove three separate character archs from the movie.

Veelk said that Luke "didn't see impossible things himself." I'm simply pointing out that he did.
Sure, my only point was it's the difference between growing up in a world that never even heard of magic before, vs growing up hearing about the force and jedi and being told you're one. There's a pretty big leap there.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
When I say the use of the force is akin to a talent/skill, you keep saying "not really." But then you compare it to yoga/meditation, which is a skill of the mind, which is learned and practiced. Yes, there is belief involved, but it's not JUST about belief. Yoda wasn't repeatedly telling Luke to "believe." He was saying "you must feel the force flowing through you" or "concentrate" or "you must learn control."
Right, but that's because the force is an art of indirectness. Yoda does indeed say that "You must learn control", but he's referencing that Luke must learn to control himself, not the force. Again, it's one of those contradictory mystic sayings. To control yourself, you must let go of yourself and so on.

You keep trying to pigeonhole me into saying that using the force is a skill that one can practice and be better at doing. And I say yes, but it's a skill in the same sense that being religious is a skill. Which you seem to be trying to separate out from what your saying so as to establish that Luke should be this good because he trained for that amount of time.

The force is a skill that is practiced through religiousness. You can do things that improve your ability to use it, yes, but it's not the conventional means your trying to frame them as. That's the impasse we're at.

If Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and is not inhibited by doubt in the force like Luke is, could Rey have lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the bay on Ach-Too?
I don't know if she'd succeed, but I would expect that she'd get further than Luke did in his first attempt on Dagobah.

You describe her in terms I agree with 'survivor' 'intelligent' 'intuition'. The issue being that, not only to I NOT see those qualities reflected in her character throughout the films (despite her being set up with these elements!), I see the worst execution of these concepts when appraising the beats of her character. I see a powerhouse that just 'does things with no idea how she did them (by her own admission at times). Because, for instance, in the mind-bending sequence, I don't see HOW she learns or adapts to Kylo, I don't see the 'survivor', nor the intellect, I don't see HOW she was 'clever' in figuring something out, she just comes across as a savant powerhouse. Which is the opposite of her setup as a character, so it's doubly damaging in my eyes.

This is why I wanted Kylo to be even more visibly injured during their duel than he was, I also wanted to see her fight dirty during the fight, emphasizing the classist contrast between them. I, in fact, would have preferred that she won the fight, not by remembering balance, but by combining her natural aptitude w the force in unconventional ways that harken to her out of the box thinking, and her scavenger background. Only for the nearly dead Kylo to comment that she will make an excellent apprentice. Not to say that she would have beaten him by the skin of her teeth, I think it would have been better had she injured him just as much in the forest as she had prior, just in ways that better highlights her qualities as a character.

To me, that combination of him displaying a ting of arrogance even in defeat, while being more gravely injured, would better preserve him as a villain for her in subsequent films, and her not going 'stock Jedi' to defeat him, would have reinforced her character traits. In a way, the traditional image of the Jedi, and Kylo, are very closely aligned when looked at in terms of a classist lens. Rey would have defeated him by virtue of her self, and it would have doubled as a step on her journey to accepting that her parents were never coming back (as she only said they would, as a coping mechanism, and never truly seemed to accept the reality of the world she lived on, or herself as she was defined by it). But in this telling, she'd be able to (symbolically) found the virtues of it, thereby the self that she had spent her life denying.

It's late and I'm very tired, as well as rambling and repeating myself, so I'll call it here for now. My issue is that, and we agree upon this being the question to ask, 'a wizard is doing something', what they have done thus far comes up far short. The very fact that they had to more blatantly spell out her chosen one status (by means of addressing, not as a justification in and of itself) in TLJ, or spend minus recounting that Kylo was deeply fractured in the finale of TFA, is not to me them pounding the 'dumb audience' over the head, but rather an admission that they did not stick the lander in properly conveying the narrative of those elements. Had they done so, there would have been little need for further clarification that took the step beyond simply recapping events of TFA.
Well....there's a lot to discuss here.

First, I want to say that your interpretation of how it would be better to play out is something I can't really counter, as what you see in your head is inevitably going to seem better both because of bias and because it's idealized in a way that won't be as good as if you actually put in the work of writing it down and then seeing it play out. That is unfortunately how art works, atleast in my experience.

All I can do is argue that the way in which we see it happen is legitimate by it's own terms. In regards to Rey turning the mind bend on Kylo Ren, we can't see her intelligence at work in the same way we see Sherlock Holmes work out a problem because, as we've come to agree, there are no known mechanisms to how the Force works, so there are no logical mechanisms we can use to understand how she did this in terms of physics, right? However, we can see how this is going on emotionally and extrapolating on that. You see Kylo Ren attacking her mentally, and she has her head down and turned away, giving a very defensive impression while Kylo Ren is hammering at her. Eventually, she turns to him, because she because she realizes that simply defending is pointless. She finds that pushing back is actually effective. She gets that 'eureka!' moment on her face. So she keeps pushing, and you can see her expression once she realizes that she sees into Kylo Ren's mind as he just saw into hers, which is when she lands the verbal blow by saying he will never be as strong as Vader.

I'm not saying my interpretation of that scene is the only way it could be read...after all, the entire point of 'show, don't tell' is often that it leaves room for varying interpretations of the same event, as what is happening is not striaght up explicitely stated....but if you read the body language, the distinction between Rey displaying survivor's instincts, intelligence, and intuition as opposed to simply 'overpowering' Kylo Ren is the process you see play out in Daisy's acting. This is simply not how I view someone who is just a musclehead that can throw their weight around acting. The process of Rey observing whats happening to her, trying a new solution, and then manipulating it to her advantage is representative of those 3 things I mentioned, whereas if she was 'just that strong', what I imagine we'd see would be her taking on Kylo' attack head on from onset, then then repelling him with a more telekinetic repulsion than digging into his psyche.

That's what I see. I can't really convince you of seeing it and I'm not necessarily trying to, but I can only support how and why I view my version of events as legitimate and hopefully get you to agree that I am making the case well.

As for your comments on Kylo ren in particular, again, I don't want to refute your interpretation as, in your mind, it's an idealized form that plays into your own ideas of what would look best without having to see the imperfect reality it would inevitably take form of, and that's not an attack on you, everyone does that. However, what your describing is essentially making Kylo Ren more 'badass' in the traditional villain sense, and he's simply not written to be that in the conventional sense. He's 'badass' in that he is a capable and powerful fighter, but in terms of personality, he's one of the most insecure, deluded, and impotent (in terms of getting what he wants) characters in the series. Similarly, while Rey is a scavenger and scrapper, that doesn't necessarily entail that she is untalented in fighting unless she's fighting dirty (afterall, when she fought with her staff at her home planet, she did so cleanly). And in particular, doing that in the final fight of TFA wouldn't send a message that was congruous with the theme it's going for, which is that Rey is true Jedi, so her winning through connection with the force (especially while Kylo Ren is at his most distraught) makes sense.

I'm not saying that your version wouldn't work in necessarily any context, but even ignoring the aforementioned bias issues, to implement that sort of thing would turn the Rey's and Kylo Ren's characters, and the theme of the movie, into something else, as opposed to being a better version of what it was trying to go for.


One of these is not like the other. One describes exactly the opposite of the way the force is portrayed in the OT and ST (and as you've described it above). It's scientifically measurable bullshit that got rightfully ditched, post PT.

I agree that this is exemplifying one writer's interpretation, but Midis contradict everything we know about the Force and what defines its power.
Yes and no. Here's the thing: as a storytelling element, the Force is anything the writer wants it to be, because the force is meant to be representative of what is happening in a character's inner soul.

Which is to say that the Force as midiclorions is - let me stress the next word - POTENTIALLY a legitimate interpretation of the force. For example, if the story of PT had been written better and intentionally worked with the interpretation that the Jedi institution has lost it's soul, then the Force working as this scientifically measurable, impersonal tool would be a good use of storytelling. But the prequels weren't actually about that. Again, there is this wierd gulf between the seemingly acknowledged fact that the Jedi institutions were all sorts of fucked up for doing the things they did, but have the story not actually make that a meaningful point. If it had, the prequels might not be the joke they are now.

But they are, because they didn't make it into a meaningful storytelling point, which means that the force being dead inside and impersonal isn't representative of some inner darkness within the jedi council. It's just how the force is in the prequels, without meaning, and THAT is the true disconnect between the prequels and the OT and NT.
 
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Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,110
USA
Yes and no. Here's the thing: as a storytelling element, the Force is anything the writer wants it to be, because the force is meant to be representative of what is happening in a character's inner soul.

Which is to say that the Force as midiclorions is - let me stress the next word - POTENTIALLY a legitimate interpretation of the force. For example, if the story of PT had been written better and intentionally worked with the interpretation that the Jedi institution has lost it's soul, then the Force working as this scientifically measurable, impersonal tool would be a good use of storytelling. But the prequels weren't actually about that. Again, there is this wierd gulf between the seemingly acknowledged fact that the Jedi institutions were all sorts of fucked up for doing the things they did, but have the story not actually make that a meaningful point. If it had, the prequels might not be the joke they are now.

But they are, because they didn't make it into a meaningful storytelling point, which means that the force being dead inside and impersonal isn't representative of some inner darkness within the jedi council. It's just how the force is in the prequels, without meaning, and THAT is the true disconnect between the prequels and the OT and NT.
Yeah the problem is that midis were presented in the same factual basis we get from Yoda when he explains how the force works.

Not as a "the Jedi were wrong about this" narrative. It's touched on in TLJ a bit, but with no mention of midis.

As they were implemented, midis were absolutely a failed idea that directly contradicts everything we know about the force in the OT.

Which is why we'll never hear about them again in mainline films in regard to the inner workings of the force.
 
Jan 3, 2018
397
I literally explained this in my first reply to you.
I must not have understood. When you watch that scene, are you wondering why she doesn't go try to wreck the canon with her mind? Instead she flies the Milennium Falcon right over it, shoots some TIEs, and shouts "I like this!"

Considering she was inspired, and grew up with the legends of LUKE, who is telling her he couldn't do it, and he was also the one that started training her, yeah no that doesn't make sense.
1. I thought part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be?

2. Please tell me what doesn't make sense about it? Luke told her that HE wasn't going to stand against an army by himself and that he cut himself off from the force, he didn't say it was impossible. He also told her that her power was almost unparalleled. Why would she think because he won't stand against an army, that she can't?

How about this: she doesn't even need to stand against the army. She just needs to see the canon, and focus on it with her mind, and break something inside it. That's not standing against an army. Why doesn't she try to do that?

You keep ignoring the fact that he is a literal legend. When did I ever say she is completely unrestricted in all her abilities and believes she can surpass the legend she looks up to?
1. You keep ignoring that part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be

2. If the reason Luke had trouble with the force is that he doubts himself, and Rey does not have doubt in herself, then therefore she is unrestricted in her abilities, right?
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,922
Yeah the problem is that midis were presented in the same factual basis we get from Yoda when he explains how the force works.

Not as a "the Jedi were wrong about this" narrative. It's touched on in TLJ a bit, but with no mention of midis.

As they were implemented, midis were absolutely a failed idea that directly contradicts everything we know about the force in the OT.

Which is why we'll never hear about them again in mainline films in regard to the inner workings of the force.
True, but personally, the midiclorians are the least of the PT's problems. Ultimately, all it really is is a device that measures what the likes of force users measure with the force. Various characters say that "Luke is strong with the force". To know that, they must be sensing something. All midiclorions are is a different name put on the thing that the OT characters sensed, and measured by a machine instead of people.

Which I'll agree that is contradictory in ANH, which implied that EVERYONE can use the force and it's really just a matter of learning how, but I'm pretty sure they dropped that by the second movie and accepted the logic of Luke being strong in the force because he's Vader's son.

I don't really care about Midiclorions being retconned, but it's always been wierd to me that THIS was treated as the primary betrayal of SW in TPM, and not everything else.