Come on Surfinn we all know a central element of Luke's character is he goes places to "fuck people up" because badass combat is part of the central beliefs of the Jedi.
I do think there are a lot of people who think Luke should be Goku and forget who Luke actually is. That's why you see so many say they wanted to see him destroy star destroys and AT-ATs lol.
When did I say that's all I'm interested in? I specifically said that one scene could have used more than an underwhelming roof collapse.It is not a plot contrivance.
The entire point of the Jedi the entire belief is the force is for knowledge NOT for attack.
Luke did not become a Jedi till he tossed that saber in Jedi. He was not a true Jedi until that moment.
You have missed the entire theme of the saga and only seem interested in surface level badass fights.
Getting good at "combat" has jack shit to do with being a Jedi though. There is nothing about Luke's character to want to expect him to show off badass fighting skills. That is why he wasn't a Jedi till he tossed aside the saber.
Yoda's actions in the prequels were portrayed as a mistake, at now following the teachings of the Jedi...you realize this right?
Uh, combat skill is pretty important for Jedi. It’s not the goal and is meant to be for self defense but it’s still pretty integral for them to at least be able to fight. They’re space samurai.
Only in defense. And only when all other non-combat options are no longer available. Wanting Luke to go fight a bunch of people to show off new abilities....doesn't fit that at all.
That is only the last option if no other option is available. But there was no need. He ascended that. Force projection eliminated the need to even fight in self defense whatsoever to succeed.
Yeah, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a fan to want to see him in a cool lightsaber battle. Him not fighting is the best choice for his character but at the end of the day a lot of people just want to see cool laser swordfights.Only in defense. And only when all other non-combat options are no longer available. Wanting Luke to go fight a bunch of people to show off new abilities....doesn't fit that at all.
The one we are responding to did not like that Luke in TLJ avoided combat, he wanted Luke to fight instead. Wanting him to fight is the element that doesn't work. The movie showed Luke had an option at succeeding without fighting. Which he did.
No, it really isn't. Not sure why people are acting like this sacrilege.
It's not all I want to see, but in terms of Luke making his return after 30 years, it would have been nice to see him in actual action again.
This is also arbitrary/plot contrivance. Again, Luke can do anything they want him to do. Luke could theoretically kill 1000 Sith in a one minute if they made it fit the story. This is fiction, they write what they want to.
And that is why I think it would be a massive mistake and go against everything Luke represents. Star Wars is not a superhero franchise or Dragon Ball, and for that I am very thankful.
If we got a scene of Luke using his saber in a fight I really don’t think there’d be any cries of it being “out of character.”
And why it’s such a crummy way for Luke to go out.
If it was shown in a way to show off "cool new powers" or make him seem badass? Like Yoda in the prequels? Then absolutely yes there would be outcries that it goes against Luke's character.
Luke throwing down his saber is not about pacifism. He’s clearly not a pacifist. It’s about refusing to give into his anger and be an agent of the dark side.If it was shown in a way to show off "cool new powers" or make him seem badass? Like Yoda in the prequels? Then absolutely yes there would be outcries that it goes against Luke's character.
RJ would never make that sort of mistake, so thankfully it was never even something we had to worry about.
Which is exactly what his Jedi illusion scene was...
When I say the use of the force is akin to a talent/skill, you keep saying "not really." But then you compare it to yoga/meditation, which is a skill of the mind, which is learned and practiced. Yes, there is belief involved, but it's not JUST about belief. Yoda wasn't repeatedly telling Luke to "believe." He was saying "you must feel the force flowing through you" or "concentrate" or "you must learn control."Not really. Again, mystics and the like do all sorts of things that aid in their religiousity. Priests pray, monks meditate, they tend to zen gardens or do martial arts.
These are skills you can train yourself to be better at, but the actual goal of these activities from a religious perspective is not to get better at them, it's to free up your mind. Theoretically, a monk who does martial arts could do it for years but not substantially improve, and it wouldn't matter because improvement at that thing isn't the goal. There's a certain mindset that you develop from doing some mundane activity over and over and over and that mindset is what religious people strive for in order to find a sort of inner peace for whatever religious framework they are using.
Luke can't lift rocks because he doesn't believe hard enough, which he can't because he's a simple, salt of the earth farmer while Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and therefore can lift rocks. What the pulleys and levers of how they acquire that power actually are is not going to be explained, so there is no point where you can stand and declare "Luke was able to do this because he worked out his brain muscles to that point".
Luke doesn't believe in the force because he is a "simple farmer?" He didn't see impossible things? In ANH, didn't he see Obiwan Jedi mind-trick the stormtrooper to letting them past?Unlike Luke, Rey is more than willing to believe in the impossible ways of the Force because she believes in Luke as a hero. Hence, aside from her developed skill of observational learning, she would be much more receptive to advice like "Do or do not. There is no try." that a more grounded young Luke would reject if he didn't see these impossible things himself.
If Rey is a wide-eyed dreamer who believes in the impossible and is not inhibited by doubt in the force like Luke is, could Rey have lifted Luke's X-Wing out of the bay on Ach-Too?From Yoda's wording, Luke could have lifted the X-wing the moment it sunk into the swamp in the first place. Like, within the first hour of getting there. Nothing was stopping him except his own willingness to believe he could do such a thing. And that's what the actual training actually is, stripping away Luke's sense of disbelief.
The flashbacks were not meant to be a deep dive into lore and backstory with extended fight sequences, but done in the style of Rashomon where various perspectives are brought to bear on what happenedWhen did I say that's all I'm interested in? I specifically said that one scene could have used more than an underwhelming roof collapse.
Do I and others want to see Luke engage in combat one last time and see how good he's gotten? Yes.
It's absolutely a plot contrivance that promoting peace is "the true way" when we all know the series is about war. It's in the fucking name "Star WARS". You and I can say all day that Jedi are about peace and this and that but the series will always have lightsaber battles, combat, death, etc.
If engaging in combat ever again was beneath Luke, why train any Jedi in the use of lightsabers then?
And if fighting is now out of Luke's character, how is quitting and letting his friends die IN his character?
So we're ignoring the fact that Luke himself (the legend she believes in) tells her that he wouldn't be able to stand alone with a laser sword against an army?
This is a pretty poor argument that is pretty quickly covered in TLJ in multiple scenes as explained above lol. Like sure theoretically she could assuming Luke could as well in his prime, thought based on his reaction to the idea of facing the FO alone, it's pretty clear that nothing like that ever happened, so it seems reasonable that Rey would feel like there are limits.
Sure she probably could have done that, not sure what they point of it would be when it's entirely non functional, hell Luke was using a piece of his X-wing as a door for his hut.
You don't see the difference between literally growing up not believing or even hearing of some mystical power, vs growing up hearing tales about a real person that had these powers?
Almost certainly if she wanted to. She wasn’t a pessimist and full of doubt like Luke was.
The A story with Rey/Luke/Ren was some of the best Star Wars has to offer. The rest I wasn’t crazy about, other than Holdo ramming the First Order Fleet... minor gripes aside... my childhood is still intact.
You clearly haven't been to r/prequelmemes. The love there may have started out as ironic, but they are very much genuine in how they feel towards the prequels.
It went from ironic to genuine to radicalized lol.
1. Why is standing against an army the same as disabling a cannon, which she could do from the safety of the Milennium Falcon? You said she needed no training to use the force because she already believed in the ways of the Jedi and knew all their powers. If she believed she could use the force to move things, why didn't she try to move the AT-ATs or the cannon? Instead she goes and lifts rocks. Do you feel that was a mistake on her part?
Why do Luke's abilities matter at all in what she can do lol? Theoretically she could, as you admit. Why doesn't she even try?This is a pretty poor argument that is pretty quickly covered in TLJ in multiple scenes as explained above lol. Like sure theoretically she could assuming Luke could as well in his prime, thought based on his reaction to the idea of facing the FO alone, it's pretty clear that nothing like that ever happened, so it seems reasonable that Rey would feel like there are limits.
Veelk said that Luke "didn't see impossible things himself." I'm simply pointing out that he did.You don't see the difference between literally growing up not believing or even hearing of some mystical power, vs growing up hearing tales about a real person that had these powers? Even witnessing something crazy like the mind trick isn't going to instantly convince someone that they too can do it.
I literally explained this in my first reply to you.1. You said she needed no training to use the force because she already believed in the ways of the Jedi and knew all their powers. If she believed she could use the force to move things, why didn't she try to move the AT-ATs or the cannon? Instead she goes and lifts rocks. Do you feel that was a mistake on her part?
Considering she was inspired, and grew up with the legends of LUKE, who is telling her he couldn't do it, and he was also the one that started training her, yeah no that doesn't make sense.2. Luke told her that HE wasn't going to stand against an army by himself and that he cut himself off from the force, he didn't say it was impossible. He also told her he had only seen one other person with her raw power before. Based on Luke's actions and statements, she should believe that she's more powerful than Luke.
You keep ignoring the fact that he is a literal legend. When did I ever say she is completely unrestricted in all her abilities and believes she can surpass the legend she looks up to?
Sure, my only point was it's the difference between growing up in a world that never even heard of magic before, vs growing up hearing about the force and jedi and being told you're one. There's a pretty big leap there.
Right, but that's because the force is an art of indirectness. Yoda does indeed say that "You must learn control", but he's referencing that Luke must learn to control himself, not the force. Again, it's one of those contradictory mystic sayings. To control yourself, you must let go of yourself and so on.When I say the use of the force is akin to a talent/skill, you keep saying "not really." But then you compare it to yoga/meditation, which is a skill of the mind, which is learned and practiced. Yes, there is belief involved, but it's not JUST about belief. Yoda wasn't repeatedly telling Luke to "believe." He was saying "you must feel the force flowing through you" or "concentrate" or "you must learn control."
I don't know if she'd succeed, but I would expect that she'd get further than Luke did in his first attempt on Dagobah.
Well....there's a lot to discuss here.You describe her in terms I agree with 'survivor' 'intelligent' 'intuition'. The issue being that, not only to I NOT see those qualities reflected in her character throughout the films (despite her being set up with these elements!), I see the worst execution of these concepts when appraising the beats of her character. I see a powerhouse that just 'does things with no idea how she did them (by her own admission at times). Because, for instance, in the mind-bending sequence, I don't see HOW she learns or adapts to Kylo, I don't see the 'survivor', nor the intellect, I don't see HOW she was 'clever' in figuring something out, she just comes across as a savant powerhouse. Which is the opposite of her setup as a character, so it's doubly damaging in my eyes.
This is why I wanted Kylo to be even more visibly injured during their duel than he was, I also wanted to see her fight dirty during the fight, emphasizing the classist contrast between them. I, in fact, would have preferred that she won the fight, not by remembering balance, but by combining her natural aptitude w the force in unconventional ways that harken to her out of the box thinking, and her scavenger background. Only for the nearly dead Kylo to comment that she will make an excellent apprentice. Not to say that she would have beaten him by the skin of her teeth, I think it would have been better had she injured him just as much in the forest as she had prior, just in ways that better highlights her qualities as a character.
To me, that combination of him displaying a ting of arrogance even in defeat, while being more gravely injured, would better preserve him as a villain for her in subsequent films, and her not going 'stock Jedi' to defeat him, would have reinforced her character traits. In a way, the traditional image of the Jedi, and Kylo, are very closely aligned when looked at in terms of a classist lens. Rey would have defeated him by virtue of her self, and it would have doubled as a step on her journey to accepting that her parents were never coming back (as she only said they would, as a coping mechanism, and never truly seemed to accept the reality of the world she lived on, or herself as she was defined by it). But in this telling, she'd be able to (symbolically) found the virtues of it, thereby the self that she had spent her life denying.
It's late and I'm very tired, as well as rambling and repeating myself, so I'll call it here for now. My issue is that, and we agree upon this being the question to ask, 'a wizard is doing something', what they have done thus far comes up far short. The very fact that they had to more blatantly spell out her chosen one status (by means of addressing, not as a justification in and of itself) in TLJ, or spend minus recounting that Kylo was deeply fractured in the finale of TFA, is not to me them pounding the 'dumb audience' over the head, but rather an admission that they did not stick the lander in properly conveying the narrative of those elements. Had they done so, there would have been little need for further clarification that took the step beyond simply recapping events of TFA.
Yes and no. Here's the thing: as a storytelling element, the Force is anything the writer wants it to be, because the force is meant to be representative of what is happening in a character's inner soul.One of these is not like the other. One describes exactly the opposite of the way the force is portrayed in the OT and ST (and as you've described it above). It's scientifically measurable bullshit that got rightfully ditched, post PT.
I agree that this is exemplifying one writer's interpretation, but Midis contradict everything we know about the Force and what defines its power.
Yeah the problem is that midis were presented in the same factual basis we get from Yoda when he explains how the force works.Yes and no. Here's the thing: as a storytelling element, the Force is anything the writer wants it to be, because the force is meant to be representative of what is happening in a character's inner soul.
Which is to say that the Force as midiclorions is - let me stress the next word - POTENTIALLY a legitimate interpretation of the force. For example, if the story of PT had been written better and intentionally worked with the interpretation that the Jedi institution has lost it's soul, then the Force working as this scientifically measurable, impersonal tool would be a good use of storytelling. But the prequels weren't actually about that. Again, there is this wierd gulf between the seemingly acknowledged fact that the Jedi institutions were all sorts of fucked up for doing the things they did, but have the story not actually make that a meaningful point. If it had, the prequels might not be the joke they are now.
But they are, because they didn't make it into a meaningful storytelling point, which means that the force being dead inside and impersonal isn't representative of some inner darkness within the jedi council. It's just how the force is in the prequels, without meaning, and THAT is the true disconnect between the prequels and the OT and NT.
I must not have understood. When you watch that scene, are you wondering why she doesn't go try to wreck the canon with her mind? Instead she flies the Milennium Falcon right over it, shoots some TIEs, and shouts "I like this!"
1. I thought part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be?
1. You keep ignoring that part of her arc was finding out legends aren't all they're cracked up to be
True, but personally, the midiclorians are the least of the PT's problems. Ultimately, all it really is is a device that measures what the likes of force users measure with the force. Various characters say that "Luke is strong with the force". To know that, they must be sensing something. All midiclorions are is a different name put on the thing that the OT characters sensed, and measured by a machine instead of people.Yeah the problem is that midis were presented in the same factual basis we get from Yoda when he explains how the force works.
Not as a "the Jedi were wrong about this" narrative. It's touched on in TLJ a bit, but with no mention of midis.
As they were implemented, midis were absolutely a failed idea that directly contradicts everything we know about the force in the OT.
Which is why we'll never hear about them again in mainline films in regard to the inner workings of the force.