I'm not putting words into your mouth.
You argument is not strong. The film justifies his change perfectly, you just didn't like it (and not liking it is perfectly ok).
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels
- Thread starter Bor Gullet
- Start date
You argument is not strong. The film justifies his change perfectly, you just didn't like it (and not liking it is perfectly ok).
The film justifies it but not strongly in my opinion. Especially considering a huge part of the reasoning behind it relies on Luke rehashing part of an arc he already went through.
You saying "my argument is better" doesn't automatically make it better. AKA
This
It perfectly justifies it. Again, you just didn't like it and that's fine.
You're kind of arguing a different point then what I am making.
No, I'm not.
You're arguing it was out of character, it wasn't. The film shows us his character growth and justifies it, so it's not out of character.
It's against your expectations of where you thought the character would go.
Just because the movie justifies it doesn't necessarily mean it was in character. These are not mutually exclusive things.
Again, I'd rather not get roped into this discussion for the millionth time.
Yes it does... his character is whatever the creators decided, and as long as it's justified and makes sense it works.
You didn't like it, you wanted something else, that's fine. It doesn't mean it was poor character growth, or out of character.
That's not how multi-movie character arcs work, or necessarily how character writing in general works. But whatever. Lets move on because we are clearly not going to agree here so I'd rather not derail the thread further.
Which is why I said I didn't want to go into this discussion again
That second gif never fails to make me laugh. So cringe.
i think astro is right if what happened to luke was like one week after ROTJ then yeah it would be out of character, but this is Luke 30 years later, Luke that has seen the galaxy shun away Leia because she was daughter of Darth Vader even when she was one of the more prominent figures in restating the republic.
idk.
if i was Luke i will conclude the galaxy is not worth saving being honestly.
but Luke is a better person than i, he though he was the problem, the jedi and their meddling was the problem, so he went away.
idk.
if i was Luke i will conclude the galaxy is not worth saving being honestly.
but Luke is a better person than i, he though he was the problem, the jedi and their meddling was the problem, so he went away.
Yes it is.
Characters go in whatever direction the creators want, and as long as their growth is justified they're not out of character.
You not liking their direction does not making it out of character.
Exactly.
Experience changed him, but in the end he understood.
Please stop quoting me. I shouldn't have to state "i dont want to talk about this again" 4 times in order for you to listen.
This is a public forum... you don't get to dictate what people respond to or do not.
You can leave the thread any time if you want to stop talking, or just ignore my posts. You want to stop? Stop.
OP
OP
My post was in response to someone who said they were disappointed because Luke didn't go "Super Saiyan" in The Last Jedi.
I bet Luke would end up just as bitter and apathetic as he was in The Last Jedi if he suffered through the thousands of pages of discussions we've had on here. It is a sick cycle, not much unlike the one in that galaxy with the Dark Side, where a new thread will find a way to create disorder and chaos.
I was literally thinking the same thing. Now we got people saying they wanted Luke to go Goku. They would have Star Wars become the DCU.
It all makes sense now. Luke had a Force vision of the future..I bet Luke would end up just as bitter and apathetic as he was in The Last Jedi if he suffered through the thousands of pages of discussions we've had on here. It is a sick cycle, not much unlike the one in that galaxy with the Dark Side, where a new thread will find a way to create disorder and chaos.
And he saw TLJ threads on ERA
Luke def would want to kill himself if he knew how disappointed his fans would be for him failing to live up to their expectations.
Yo this gif reminds me that we need to talk about the real crime The Last Jedi commited.
The GOAT green saber was barely in the movie
Lol this is my feelings to a Tee. The Gif that defines my feeling on the matter. Im not a troll Cheebo!!!!I know you are banned, but if you see this, I am not a troll.
I keep telling you that!
Now I don't miss the old EU even for second (so so much crap) but I really hate how the new canon has so much great stuff like Leia's legacy being tarnished because of her parentage and we don't get even a hint of it in the films themselves. It would go so much toward motivations and characterization.
ah throwaway line by han on TFA would do wonders
"I don't know why you care so much about this galaxy, this republic... after they did to us"
I'm not a huge fan of it. Luke and Leia basically ended the war. It was because of them that the Rebellion was able to turn the table against the Empire and ultimately win. Heck, Luke personally went onto the Death Star II and indirectly killed the Emperor himself.
Why would their dad being Darth Vader matter at all? If they know Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker, then they'd know he was a hero of the war that saved billions of lives. There's no way a hero like that would fall to the dark side unless he was manipulated by Palpatine, the same guy that manipulated the entire Galactic Senate into giving him the keys to the Republic. The guy played everyone and, unlike the Senate, at least Anakin did the right thing in the end and killed Palpatine with his own two hands.
Doesn't make any sense at all to hold who their dad was against Leia or Luke.
it was supposed to show how far he had gone into beating his sword into a plow. he doesn't give a shit about lightsabers, the force, fighting, any of it.
but it still looks like a sadboi having a tantrum...
if you had to chose between someone neutral and hitler's daughter to lead the UN, who would you pick?
You are giving WAY too much credit to the prejudices and irrationality of the common people. They wouldn't care that Vader was redeemed at the end. They wouldn't care if he was just a pawn of Sheev. Vader is a mass murderer and responsible for God only knows how many atrocities. There quite possibly is not a single person in the galaxy that Vader and Sheev did not impact in a negative way.
And it turns out Leia, the prominent politician, is his DAUGHTER?
Imagine if it turned out Hitler had a son and daughter we never heard about. Would it matter at all to many, hell most people, if there were practically saints that give millions to charity and sang to sick children every night? Nope.
There's no point trying to relate it to real life people. It's called fantasy for a reason.
Besides, a more accurate analogy would be Himmler's daughter if she had been fighting against her father and the Nazi Party for years and was instrumental in its downfall while her brother and father were responsible for Hitler's death.
Someone like that choosing to run for a political position would not have been ostracised like Leia was. If anything she'd be a hero for standing against her father and the horrible things he did and allowed to happen.
Again, you give people FAR too much credit. Their own political party/allies would force them to resign/drop out of the race. And that's BEFORE their political opponents would get in on the fun. The attack ads basically write themselves.
Yup, and another big factor to consider is people didn't know that she was Vader's daughter at the time (considering they only found out by RotJ themselves).
In the EU it was later when the rest of the public found out (from what I recall at least). For a political figure it literally does basically just present a giant target on your head.
I still remember here in Aus one woman was politically attacked for playing WoW when she started running for a government position. Her opposition literally ran front page ads trying to make her seem addicted and unfit to serve.
No the film doesn't show us explicitly what caused his character change. It tells us. It tells us that Luke saw something so horrible in Ben's thoughts that he briefly considered murdering his nephew in his sleep. It didn't show us. And it's really hard to swallow that an aged Luke Skywalker, who was face to face with Vader/Emperor/etc, would be that thrown by a vision of the future (that he knows is always in motion) to kill a kid in his sleep. It's dumb and unearned. It's tell not show. It's bad.
Your argument is not strong.
It showed and told us. My argument is perfectly supported. He didn't try to kill a kid, he had a knee-jerk reaction to a powerful force premonition and immediately controlled it. People like you who can't stand not having their expectations met and dishonestly representing what we see on screen are always fun in threads like these.
He didn't go in to kill a kid or anything like that. His intent wasn't such, he only reacted for a fraction of a second because of how dark what he saw was. He flicked the switch in a moment of pure impulse before being hit with immediate regret. Had Ben not woken up in the worst possible moment, things could have been different, but life's like that sometimes.
Luke was in an entirely different place back during the events of the trilogy. Back then, it seemed like life could only get better from a run down Rebellion in a dominated galaxy to something more. But now Luke's older, and their happily ever after is showing signs of cracking. The Pendulum is starting to swing the other way, and Luke sees what could destroy everything he spent years of his life fighting for...and has that one human moment of weakness, to take the simple route. He regrets it, because he knows that's not who he normally is, but that moment costs him hard, costs him everything he's built. That vision of the future becomes self-fulfilling. All that hope, optimism, hard work, it's all shattered in a moment of weakness.
It's not bad in the least, it's one of the best moments in Star Wars. It lets Luke be more than the perfect hero to render the new characters pointless. It lets Luke be an actual character, with flaws and all, but also growth, and the means to better the galaxy in a way that better fits the Jedi than some sort of Force God to solo the First Order.
TLJ telling and not showing has nothing to do with my expectations not being met. That's your weak attempt at painting broadly and argument dismissal.
But if I'm wrong, please provide the time mark in TLJ that shows the heinous vision Luke saw that is the catalyst for his spiral into depression and self exile and arguably the most important story beat in the film.
This is a great example of tell and not show. The film tells you it was the briefest moments of instinct, but go back and watch the film. What's on screen is quite slow and deliberate in comparison to the words in Luke's monologue. Hate creeps across his face. He slowly pulls his saber, etc.
And I never said Luke went in to kill his nephew. But he did, for a moment, consider killing his nephew in his sleep based on nothing more than a vision and feelings of darkness. Both of which we and Luke know aren't set in stone. That's not just a "human moment of weakness." That's egregious and indefensible. So in that regard his punishment matches the crime, but the problem is making it believable that Luke would do that in the first place. And the film basically asks us to take its word for it. "Trust us, what he saw was really bad!"
And all of this about Luke seeing cracks in their happily ever after again are examples of things not shown.
Last edited:
?Are you implying that it was the vision that caused his depression?
I mean it shows us Luke's reaction to what he sees.
We're talking about the same Luke right? The one that saw a vision of his friends in danger and immediately dropped his training and nearly got himself killed?
The same one that flew into a literal mad rage when Leia was verbally threatened?
It seems to make perfect sense to me that someone that protective would have a natural instinct to stop a threat from hurting Leia and Han in such a situation.
No. It's what led to his actions that led to his depression and exile and all.
It's the catalyst. It's incredibly important and yet its not actually on screen. You're just supposed to take their word that it was really really bad.
Ok? We still see Luke's reaction to it (as mentioned above), and considering his past characterization it still makes perfect sense. Also, Luke does explain what the vision was, it wasn't just "it was bad".
So tell not show.
Obviously we all have different bars for what is believable. The writers try to tell us it was beyond Luke's imagination and what Ben would become would bring the end to everything, yada yada. That's a lot for the writers to ask of me who's seen Luke take on the Empire and turn Vader and what not. And who's seen Kylo, who is more of a tantrum throwing twat than anything approaching the evil of the Emperor. So that monologue rings hallow and more the words of a writer and not of Luke Skywalker to me.
Do you think judging something as reasonable or justified is objective or something? Some people didn't see Luke's transformation as justified, based on who they saw in the OT. Maybe you should lay off.
And no the film did not show us explicitly what caused his character change. What's the change that occurred to make him into a person who would even consider taking a light saber to his own nephew's room in the middle of the night based on a vision?
Key word being "see there.
Yeah that Luke! The raging one!
Ok? You still haven't addressed my points though?
I imagine ESB and RotJ where he very clearly has trouble with being impulsive and easily enraged if people he cares about (such as Leia) are threatened in any way including verbally.
Luke got enraged at an evil man for threatening his sister. When he considers killing his nephew long enough to almost carry out the action, he has already become an evil man.