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Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels

Oct 27, 2017
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Arkansas
Ok? You still haven't addressed my points though?
I'm not sure I've seen you make a point besides basically "it works for me," and I think I've laid out why it doesn't for me.

"We're talking about the same Luke right? The one that saw a vision of his friends in danger and immediately dropped his training and nearly got himself killed?"

Odd how you try to frame this. Yeah, the same Luke that when he was a young, fledgling Jedi wannabe had a vision of pain and suffering and has a talk with Yoda who makes it clear the future is always changing, who naively rushes to their aid, gets his ass and ego kicked, but doesn't give up and saves Han and eventually the galaxy.

So it seems you think it makes sense for an elder Luke to still be dealing with his emotional spats from his youth (even though him controlling them was basically the key to said galaxy saving and the climax of the OT) and yet loosing his never give up spirit.

Whereas I'm kind of the opposite. It seems more in character that an aged Luke would be more in control of his emotions but still hold on to his never give up attitude as he's seen it win the day already.

And I definitely don't feel TLJ was successful in providing a convincing reason for Luke doing what he did.
 
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Jan 3, 2018
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*Luke actually nearly beats his own father to death because his sister was verbally threatened.
*Luke briefly considers killing someone when he sees a literal vision of that person killing everyone he loves (including Leia).

The fact he restrains himself immediately shows that he very much grew over the years, but him considering it is absolutely in character. And don't think I didn't notice that his own father is suddenly "evil man" but Ben is his "nephew" so that you could avoid that fact that both were family.
I noticed that when you wanted to make Luke seem more evil, you use the phrase "his father" instead of "Darth Vader." When you want to make his actions seem less evil, you use the term "someone" instead of "his nephew."
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,286
Odd how you try to frame this. Yeah, the same Luke that when he was a young, fledgling Jedi wannabe had a vision of pain and suffering and has a talk with Yoda who makes it clear the future is always changing, who naively rushes to their aid, gets his ass and ego kicked, but doesn't give up and saves Han and eventually the galaxy.
Right so far.
So it seem you think it makes sense for an elder Luke to still be dealing with his emotional spats (even though him controlling them was basically the key to said galaxy saving and the climax of the OT) and loosing his never give up spirit.
*controlling them after nearly murdering his own father*

Whereas I'm kind of the opposite. It seems more in character that an aged Luke would be more in control of his emotions
Sure, and given what we're shown it's pretty clear that he is because he doesn't act on them at all. He considers them in a flash of instinct but stops himself before actually doing anything.

till hold on to his never give up attitude as he's seen it win the day already.
Except he just simultaneously felt like he just created a brand new Vader, effectively killing his nephew (in the star wars sense) and failing the two people he cares about more than anything else in the world.

Imagine all that while also knowing that the past Jedi were also responsible for creating the original Vader, and thus the deaths of billions as well. I personally can see that as something that would shake someone to the core, especially someone who's failures in the past only impacted themselves mostly.

I noticed that when you wanted to make Luke seem more evil, you use the phrase "his father" instead of "Darth Vader." When you want to make his actions seem less evil, you use the term "someone" instead of "his nephew."
Yes that was very intentional! It's called turning it back on you, since you tend to do that sort of thing.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Except he just simultaneously felt like he just created a brand new Vader, effectively killing his nephew (in the star wars sense) and failing the two people he cares about more than anything else in the world.

Imagine all that while also knowing that the past Jedi were also responsible for creating the original Vader, and thus the deaths of billions as well. I personally can see that as something that would shake someone to the core, especially someone who's failures in the past only impacted themselves mostly.
In Empire Luke sees a vision, calls out Han, calls out Leia and slowly looses his concentration, then has a conversation with Yoda and eventually rushes off. He doesn't have a vision and freak out and dive for his blaster. In RotJ Vader is drilling into his thoughts and goading him and keeps on and on and eventually Luke breaks in a fit of rage. So even given the past evidence, there's still a large leap from what's shown in V and VI and Luke loosing it like he does in TLJ. Lighting his saber is an act. It's a really big deal.

But that's besides the point. We're arguing different things. I've already said that if you just take what the writers tell you and accept that Luke's vision is so awful he (Luke Skywalker who's seen and experienced all the awful stuff he has) is so shaken by a mere vision from a, to that day, innocent kid that he would react and pop his saber in a flash of instinct, then that act is so monstrous that he might feel so responsible and such shame that he might run off. (this is again, ignoring that the film doesn't actually show a flash of instinct but a much more methodical thought process)

But that's not the discussion. This tangent started because of the believability of the vision and how it's not shown but merely told. Again, for me, it just comes off as words from a writer and not the character. Show not tell is a good guide to follow and TLJ isn't confident that it can actually show a convincing vision to break an elder Luke Skywalker.

Just imagine T2 without the playground scene (or any of the future apocalyptic stuff). It wouldn't carry nearly the same weight.
 
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I mean, if you had proof that your newphew was gonna slaughter your entire family and you were holding a loaded gun, you might consider it for a second too.
Well since I have a nephew not too far off from Kylo's age, no I wouldn't. First I would probably talk to his mother and father about it. If I can't contact them, I might restrain him some way if I thought he would kill innocent people that very night. I would never consider killing him. And Luke was shown in the OT to be a better person that I am.

I think it's INSANE to compare trying to kill Darth Vader with strongly considering killing Ben Solo, but since that's what we're doing now, I feel it should be stated that Luke did the first act before knowing if it was possible to turn Darth Vader back to the light. After Vader is redeemed, he knows that dark siders are redeemable, especially a young person who has not actually committed any atrocities yet.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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n RotJ Vader is drilling into his thoughts and goading him and keeps on and on and eventually Luke breaks in a fit of rage. So even the past evidence, there's still a large leap from what's shown in V and VI and Luke loosing it like he does in TLJ.
I can't really agree with this interpretation, we see Luke hiding in the shadow, avoiding facing Vader and then trying to calm down, then Vader finds out about Leia and goes down that road and Luke loses it.

But that's not the discussion. This tangent started because of the believability of the vision and how it's not shown but merely told. Again, for me, it just comes off as words from a writer and not the character. Show not tell is a good guide to follow and TLJ isn't confident that it can actually show a convincing vision to break an elder Luke Skywalker.
Ah I see what you mean with this part, so it's more that you wanted to actually see what Luke saw, to have it impact more with the audience?

If so I can certainly understand that, and honestly I would have preferred seeing the vision, but I don't think that the way it was done was terrible.

I might restrain him some way
Immediate response from Kylo would be to bury you like he does in the scene.
And Luke was shown in the OT to be a better person that I am.


ke did the first act before knowing if it was possible to turn Darth Vader back to the light.
This is correct. He went to Vader first to try to redeem him. Then Vader threatened Leia and the above happened and Luke nearly fell to the dark side.

After Vader is redeemed, he knows that dark siders are redeemable, especially a young person who has not actually committed any atrocities yet.
Sure, which is why he didn't actually try to kill him. He had a brief flash of instinct which is perfectly in line with someone this protective, but stops himself right away.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Does he though? I guess it depends on where you consider the "brief flash." Because he holds his saber in his hand for quite a while.
Sure he was holding it for awhile, but the actual thought of it was gone. He's basically standing there reeling in shock trying to figure out what to do when Ben wakes up.

If you had proof that your nephew was about to become Hitler 2.0 you might have a few moments of being dumbstruck.
 
Sure he was holding it for awhile, but the actual thought of it was gone. He's basically standing there reeling in shock trying to figure out what to do when Ben wakes up.
Lighting the saber in the first place is not just impulsive, it's evil. At the end of RotJ, Luke throws away his saber and refuses to fight. In TLJ, he is a Jedi master, so he had been continuing with Jedi training. Yet he is making even worse mistakes than he made in his youth? Unjustifiable.

If you had proof that your nephew was about to become Hitler 2.0 you might have a few moments of being dumbstruck.
Visions of the future in the Star Wars universe have never been established as "proof."
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,286
Lighting the saber in the first place is not just impulsive, it's evil.
No not really, thought crime isn't the same as actually going through with it.
At the end of RotJ, Luke throws away his saber and refuses to fight.
And yet he nearly murders his own father before that.
Yet he is making even worse mistakes than he made in his youth? Unjustifiable.
Can I get a link to the scene were he flat out nearly kills Kylo? Because apparently he makes a mistake that's worse than nearly falling to the dark side while killing the person that he was there to try to save.

Visions of the future in the Star Wars universe have never been established as "proof."
Well except for all the times where it certainly came true, like him seeing his friends being tortured lol. Though I'm not surprised you still ignore the literal video evidence provided and are instead trying to pick at "proof" while ignoring the rest.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Arkansas
Sure he was holding it for awhile, but the actual thought of it was gone. He's basically standing there reeling in shock trying to figure out what to do when Ben wakes up.

If you had proof that your nephew was about to become Hitler 2.0 you might have a few moments of being dumbstruck.
I meant from the point he took the saber off his belt to the point he turns it on is quite a long time. Was it a flash of instinct that made him take his saber in hand in the first place or was the flash of instinct the point that he actually turned it on? Because from what's filmed, there seems to be a lot of contemplation taking place instead of simply a flash of instinct.

And he doesn't have proof of anything. "Impossible to see the future is." It's more akin to reading "Ugh, I'm going to kill everybody!" in some kid's diary who's never really done anything bad. And I don't think having even a few moments of murderous thoughts are understandable in that scenario.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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s more akin to reading "Ugh, I'm going to kill everybody!" in some kid's diary who's never really done anything bad
Nah, while I agree that the future isn't set in stone in the visions, it absolutely is not the equivalent of a diary entry of an edgy teenager lol. Don't forget that Luke did correctly see visions of Leia and Han being tortured.
And I don't think having even a few moments of murderous thoughts are understandable in that scenario.
Sure, but this wasn't a diary entry. TFA shows what force visions are like, and even in ESB it shows that they have a strong impact on the viewer too. It's absolutely not the equivalent because of how visceral it is.

I meant from the point he took the saber off his belt to the point he turns it on is quite a long time. Was it a flash of instinct that made him take his saber in hand in the first place or was the flash of instinct the point that he actually turned it on.
I see what you mean with that, but depending on how long the vision goes for is it really unbelievable that he reaches for it during the vision, and lights it just as it ends?

Again obviously this is more an issue with not being able to see what he sees.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Arkansas
Nah, while I agree that the future isn't set in stone in the visions, it absolutely is not the equivalent of a diary entry of an edgy teenager lol. Don't forget that Luke did correctly see visions of Leia and Han being tortured.
You're assuming Leia was tortured. She doesn't really seem like she was in any scene. But whatever, I'm sure she was at least in emotional pain or whatever that Luke could pick up on.

But, I mean, this very movie shows that reading minds isn't accurate as evidenced by the bisected Snoke.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
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You're assuming Leia was tortured. She doesn't really seem like she was in any scene.
Actually that was more of a typo on my part, I don't think Leia was tortured, but we do know han was.

But, I mean, this very movie shows that reading minds isn't accurate as evidenced by the bisected Snoke.
Do you mean the visions influenced by Snoke? If so then yes I do agree with that, but my point is more along the lines of while the visions aren't always 100% accurate (though to be fair before this movie every premonition has been true between the prequels and OT).

My second point as well is that they are often shown to be very visceral and realistic (see in TFA for example) so imagine Luke basically seeing Leia and Han being killed by Kylo right in front of him, in perfect realism etc.

But it does seem like we both do agree at the least that letting the audience see the vision would have been better than what we got!
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,439
Sure he was holding it for awhile, but the actual thought of it was gone. He's basically standing there reeling in shock trying to figure out what to do when Ben wakes up.

If you had proof that your nephew was about to become Hitler 2.0 you might have a few moments of being dumbstruck.
ugh....not to get into the gordian fucking knots of debating how the force works again, but when I think of this, I always try to imagine what Luke actually experienced.

Because it's an interesting thought experiment. Snoke, when he was mind reading Kylo Ren, was crazy specific regarding what his feelings were. The wording of the 'He strikes down his TRUE enemy' is particularly interesting because Rey never deceived Kylo Ren or anything like that, so applying 'true enemy' to her like she was hiding something nefarious, when he himself knows she never did, meant that he was reading Kyo Ren's true feelings...but he had no idea that the target of the feelings he was reading were him. The only way that wording really makes sense is in the framework of Kylo Ren realizing, in that moment, who his truly impeding his desire for progress.

This suggests that rather than the literal things that the person being read thinks, force mind reading is more abstract. He can get the exact feelings and emotions of what happens, but not the literal thing. And this makes sense with the OT. The Force, in the cave, showed Luke himself being under the mask, communicating that the inner feelings Luke experiences upon finding out his father is vader. Luke now sees himself under vader metaphorically, and that's what the force shows, a metaphor, and it does it through feelings.

So, when Luke took out his lightsaber, I don't think he was actually in his right mind. The force sent him a vision and he experienced it not just as a ghost that happens to be at the scene of Kylo Ren slaughtering people, but feeling everything that scene itself entailed. As a result, it's pretty reasonable that Luke taking out the lightsaber would be acting in the same sense as if the vision had already happened, atleast emotionally, so it takes him a bit to re-orient himself to the present, where Kylo Ren hasn't done anything yet.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,286
ugh....not to get into the gordian fucking knots of debating how the force works again, but when I think of this, I always try to imagine what Luke actually experienced.

Because it's an interesting thought experiment. Snoke, when he was mind reading Kylo Ren, was crazy specific regarding what his feelings were. The wording of the 'He strikes down his TRUE enemy' is particularly interesting because Rey never deceived Kylo Ren or anything like that, so applying 'true enemy' to her like she was hiding something nefarious, when he himself knows she never did, meant that he was reading Kyo Ren's true feelings...but he had no idea that the target of the feelings he was reading were him. The only way that wording really makes sense is in the framework of Kylo Ren realizing, in that moment, who his truly impeding his desire for progress.

This suggests that rather than the literal things that the person being read thinks, force mind reading is more abstract. He can get the exact feelings and emotions of what happens, but not the literal thing. And this makes sense with the OT. The Force, in the cave, showed Luke himself being under the mask, communicating that the inner feelings Luke experiences upon finding out his father is vader. Luke now sees himself under vader metaphorically, and that's what the force shows, a metaphor, and it does it through feelings.

So, when Luke took out his lightsaber, I don't think he was actually in his right mind. The force sent him a vision and he experienced it not just as a ghost that happens to be at the scene of Kylo Ren slaughtering people, but feeling everything that scene itself entailed. As a result, it's pretty reasonable that Luke taking out the lightsaber would be acting in the same sense as if the vision had already happened, atleast emotionally, so it takes him a bit to re-orient himself to the present, where Kylo Ren hasn't done anything yet.
Yeah that's pretty much my interpretation of the vision overall. Everything related to them seems to impact the viewer on an emotional level so it seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw given what's been currently shown.

I would like to restate that by "proof" I don't mean concrete definitely going to happen kind, but as I previously mentioned, the visions themselves tend to prove themselves true more often than not, and that the major change is more how/why the happened if any change at all.
 
It seems like "The Force" as a thing is a much more detrimental to the state of the universe than it is aiding it. Giving evil people powers, giving visions that spark murderous intent, yada yada yada---even the masters of it seem to have their lives wrecked over and over again. What a terrible superpower.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Luke almost beat a evil dude to death that was responsible for the death of his father figure, threatened, captured and attempted to kill his friends/sister multiple times. A man that he directly met what 2 times in his life for less then 24 hours total. Dude was not his father. He was trying to kill a stranger to stop a war. Ben was family, its out of character for Luke.
 
Feb 13, 2018
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Japan
Luke only technically met his father a handful of times, but he grew up admiring him and wanting to meet him. The fact that the person he wanted to meet was a lie didn’t matter. Those feelings combined with what he heard about him before he was Vader from Obi-Wan mattered. Even if he didn’t personally know the real Anakin, Luke had an extremely emotional connection there.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Do you think judging something as reasonable or justified is objective or something? Some people didn't see Luke's transformation as justified, based on who they saw in the OT. Maybe you should lay off.

And no the film did not show us explicitly what caused his character change. What's the change that occurred to make him into a person who would even consider taking a light saber to his own nephew's room in the middle of the night based on a vision?
And in my opinion they are wrong.