Mark Hamill Once Again Expresses Unhappiness With New ‘Star Wars’ Sequels

[Surfinn]

They wouldn't be using math to wield the force, they'd be using the force to wield math. It's, fundamentally, no different than using the force to calculate where something should be shot, no less nonsensical than hitting a laser while blindfolded. The force guides correct action through entering the trance that lets your soul be connected to the rest of the universe. And then the force guides you to the right thing, by controlling you, guiding you, and there's no reason to think that can't be a keystroke as much as it is a sword swing.

Look, that's about as well as I can explain, but for me, there is no reason that a person couldn't use the force to solve a mathematical problem they can't solve otherwise or paint a portrait or write a composition of music that is impossible under normal standards. I'm still waiting for someone to realize that the force be be used for more than lifting rocks and write that story (even if lifting rocks is pretty cool and I have no problem with it). And that only works if I take Yoda at his word that the force is powered by belief, which doesn't just mean that his knowledge is incomplete, but that it MUST be incomplete, because someone out in the SW universe believes things that contradict him just as strongly.

And I think the Star Wars universe is just more interesting if one person doesn't have a monopoly on truth regarding the Force. It erases too much possibility otherwise.

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I'm not sure if I didn't word it right, but I was (and am) agreeing with you. My point was that if you're saying they're using the force to improve their natural skills (ie math or whatever), then it makes sense. I'm not really sure how it would work in a film (I mean in terms of if it could be executed right), but I'd be open to the idea of the force being used for other stuff.

And again, this adheres to Yoda's lesson to Luke. That if you believe in yourself and your abilities, you can accomplish great things. That could be art, music, math, physical feats, whatever.

But the same concept applies here. It's not limited to lifting an X-Wing.

Which is why the metaphor is so damn potent and relatable.

 

[Veelk]

I'm not sure if I didn't word it right, but I was (and am) agreeing with you. My point was that if you're saying they're using the force to improve their natural skills (ie math or whatever), then it makes sense. I'm not really sure how it would work in a film (I mean in terms of if it could be executed right), but I'd be open to the idea of the force being used for other stuff.

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I'm glad you agree that the force can be used for those different things, but to have skill in those different abilities, you need a framework by which to work on it. A painter needs to think like a painter. A scientist like a scientist. And use the force through that framework. And inevitably, there will be someone who Yoda looks at from the spirit realm and says "That's not how the force works", except it does, because beliefs.

Otherwise, it's back to lifting rocks.

Oh yeah I could see that too honestly, it's an interesting idea if nothing else lol.

And honestly assuming it works that way, I could see that as something that has happened/could happen, though i imagine some people might be pissed at it.

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Yeah, well, people will would be pissed if the star wars logo was offcenter in a star wars movie by a pixel, so...

 

[Surfinn]

I'm glad you agree that the force can be used for those different things, but to have skill in those different abilities, you need a framework by which to work on it. A painter needs to think like a painter. A scientist like a scientist. And use the force through that framework. And inevitably, there will be someone who Yoda looks at from the spirit realm and says "That's not how the force works", except it does, because beliefs.

Otherwise, it's back to lifting rocks.

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But why are we assuming Yoda would say that? Your original argument appeared, to me, to be "we can use science to use the force", not "we can use the force to enhance our strengths, including math and science", which is already how the force works. So if that's what you meant from the beginning, then I agreed with you the whole time, lol. Luke is naturally a good pilot. Rey is naturally a good fighter. They both, respectively, used the force to enhance their strengths into impossible feats.

So I agree with you and in this context, Yoda does too.

 

[Veelk]

Your original argument appeared, to me, to be "we can use science to use the force",

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No, what I said was we can use a scientific FRAMEWORK to view the force, and I specified multiple times that a framework or worldview is very different from the scientific method. I'm talking about how you view the world, the center truth that you believe in and the lens you understand life through. It's not even really about being good at the thing your looking at the world through, it's just understanding the world through it.

It doesn't even have to do with rationality either. There was this mathematician that showed up on Jon Stewart's the Daily Show. And this guy was so obsessed with it that he saw everything through numbers. He even commented that Jon looked like a very dignified 11 to him or something. This guy is so into math that other people look like numbers to him. That's not rational or even mathematic, it's the product of your mind being in a certain framework so long that it filters everything it sees through that framework.

And, theoretically, he could be shit at math too. It's not about how good you are at something (though obviously the more you do soemthing, the better you'll generally get at it, so whatever it is you obsess about it, you'll probably be better than the average personatleast), but he still lives in a math world.

That's what I mean when I say Yoda could be wrong. Everyone's worldview is limited, so him talking about feelings and emotions, someone who tries to understand the world through science does not jive with him. But if they believe in that worldview, then according not just to him, but what we see, the force should work for them in a way that it couldn't work for Yoda. Not because he's not good at the thing they do, but because his worldview is incompatible with theirs.

 

[munchie64]

 

[Surfinn]

No, what I said was we can use a scientific FRAMEWORK to view the force, and I specified multiple times that a framework or worldview is very different from the scientific method. I'm talking about how you view the world, the center truth that you believe in and the lens you understand life through. It's not even really about being good at the thing your looking at the world through, it's just understanding the world through it.

It doesn't even have to do with rationality either. There was this mathematician that showed up on Jon Stewart's the Daily Show. And this guy was so obsessed with it that he saw everything through numbers. He even commented that Jon looked like a very dignified 11 to him or something. This guy is so into math that other people look like numbers to him. That's not rational or even mathematic, it's the product of your mind being in a certain framework so long that it filters everything it sees through that framework.

And, theoretically, he could be shit at math too. It's not about how good you are at something (though obviously the more you do soemthing, the better you'll generally get at it, so whatever it is you obsess about it, you'll probably be better than the average personatleast), but he still lives in a math world.

That's what I mean when I say Yoda could be wrong. Everyone's worldview is limited, so him talking about feelings and emotions, someone who tries to understand the world through science does not jive with him. But if they believe in that worldview, then according not just to him, but what we see, the force should work for them in a way that it couldn't work for Yoda. Not because he's not good at the thing they do, but because his worldview is incompatible with theirs.

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I mean Yoda's framework was about believing in yourself to overcome challenges. That's pretty much it. And we've seen the force turn basic strengths into supernatural feats, but that doesn't have anything to do with Luke lifting objects, because that's not something that was already a strength for him.

So I'm not sure how some guy seeing the world differently contradicts "believe in yourself and your abilities and you will succeed". It's a pretty basic and universal lesson.

To be honest I'm having a really hard time understanding the point you're trying to make.

 

[Reven Wolf]

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New YouTube video: Frank Oz held hostage by Disney and Kathleen Kennedy!?!?

 

[Veelk]

I mean Yoda's framework was about believing in yourself to overcome challenges. That's pretty much it. And we've seen the force turn basic strengths into supernatural feats.

So I'm not sure how some guy seeing the world differently contradicts "believe in yourself and your abilities and you will succeed". It's a pretty basic and universal lesson.

To be honest I'm having a really hard time understanding the point you're trying to make.

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Well, it goes back to your defiance of midiclorians and how you framed that the discussion that an understanding of the force through a scientific framework is impossible. It might very well be impossible for Yoda, who defies that the force is capable of being understood, only felt through emotion and feelings and so on. But if someone truly with their heart and soul BELIEVED and FELT that it could be understood through a scientific framework, and the force acts through BELIEF and FEELINGS, then what is the result?

You either have to accept that the force allows for contradictory worldviews to work through it or else you have to set some hard ground rules that the force wouldn't work for this person, regardless of how much they believed, which would put it in the realm of being capable of being scientifically measured and experimented with because it has some actual rules it has to adhere to.

I prefer the force to be malleable from person to person depending on their worldview, which by defintion means that Yoda's understand of the force is incomplete.

 

[Surfinn]

Well, it goes back to your defiance of midiclorians and how you framed that the discussion that an understanding of the force through a scientific framework is impossible. It might very well be impossible for Yoda, who defies that the force is capable of being understood, only felt through emotion and feelings and so on. But if someone truly with their heart and soul BELIEVED and FELT that it could be understood through a scientific framework, and the force acts through BELIEF and FEELINGS, then what is the result?

You either have to accept that the force allows for contradictory worldviews to work through it or else you have to set some hard ground rules that the force wouldn't work for this person, regardless of how much they believed, which would put it in the realm of being capable of being scientifically measured and experimented with because it has some actual rules it has to adhere to.

I prefer the force to be malleable from person to person depending on their worldview, which by defintion means that Yoda's understand of the force is incomplete.

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I have no idea how you're still trying to tie this into midis. I mean honestly I feel like you're making shit way more complicated than it needs to be. The force is not a difficult concept, and different minds are going to interpret and react to it in their own ways; that doesn't contradict Yoda's lesson.

Someone with a scientific mind is perfectly capable of not believing in themselves. Or maybe they don't have Luke's problem and, like Rey, they already have a great deal of confidence in their abilities and don't need that lesson. Either way, Yoda never said "this is the only possible lesson to learn in regard to the force", just that if you believe in your abilities, you will be able to wield it much more effectively. Luke didn't. Many people can relate to that lesson.. I think everyone, at some point in their life, can relate to being impacted by not believing in themselves/having low confidence.

Maybe we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Veelk]

I have no idea how you're still trying to tie this into midis. I mean honestly I feel like you're making shit way more complicated than it needs to be. The force is not a difficult concept, and different minds are going to interpret and react to it in their own ways; that doesn't contradict Yoda's lesson.

Someone with a scientific mind is perfectly capable of not believing in themselves. Or maybe they don't have Luke's problem and, like Rey, they already have a great deal of confidence in their abilities and don't need that lesson. Either way, Yoda never said "this is the only possible lesson to learn in regard to the force", just that if you believe in your abilities, you will be able to wield it much more effectively. Luke didn't. Many people can relate to that lesson.. I think everyone, at some point in their life, can relate to being impacted by not believing in themselves/having low confidence.

Maybe we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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Sure, this debate has been going on a while, so it's probably a good time to end it already. But I also feel your stance has changed. You now seem to focus the importance of Yoda's belief life, but he also said stuff emphasizing feelings and thus framed stuff like Midiclorians as entirely contradictory to the force. And they are to the worldview's of the force being based on feelings, like Luke's worldview of everyone being redeemable. My only point in this that if you open that door to various frameworks, like scientific, mathematic, etc, then you are gonna get some very unyoda like Jedi who nevertheless should be able to make contact with the force, it would just manifest itself differently. As such, there are probably worldviews where Midiclorians are a perfectly sensible way of understanding the force...just not the Yodalike Jedi. The reason midiclorians failed as a storytelling element is because Quigon Jin isn't a scientifically minded Jedi. The Midiclorians were just this thing that came out of nowhere, used by a character who shouldn't have been using them.

I don't mean to write off Yoda's teachings and I've never invalidated what he said to Luke about believing in yourself and soon. But Yoda's worldview isn't all encompassing, so it can't be complete. That's all I was saying.

 

[Reven Wolf]

I don't mean to write off Yoda's teachings and I've never invalidated what he said to Luke about believing in yourself and soon. But Yoda's worldview isn't all encompassing, so it can't be complete. That's all I was saying.

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Out of curiosity though, wouldn't this imply that a worldview can't change? I agree a world view isn't all encompassing, but feelings/emotions can usually play a part in most worldviews (including someone that focuses/thinks entirely in math etc?)

Like someone who thinks in math, could conceivably still get angry over something, which would affect his actions etc?

Or could such a person learn it in a different way then? I'm curious at your overall worldview interpretation and if being met with a conflicting world view could result in a change of worldview instead?

 

[Surfinn]

Sure, this debate has been going on a while, so it's probably a good time to end it already. But I also feel your stance has changed. You now seem to focus the importance of Yoda's belief life, but he also said stuff emphasizing feelings and thus framed stuff like Midiclorians as entirely contradictory to the force. And they are to the worldview's of the force being based on feelings, like Luke's worldview of everyone being redeemable. My only point in this that if you open that door to various frameworks, like scientific, mathematic, etc, then you are gonna get some very unyoda like Jedi who nevertheless should be able to make contact with the force, it would just manifest itself differently. As such, there are probably worldviews where Midiclorians are a perfectly sensible way of understanding the force...just not the Yodalike Jedi. The reason midiclorians failed as a storytelling element is because Quigon Jin isn't a scientifically minded Jedi. The Midiclorians were just this thing that came out of nowhere, used by a character who shouldn't have been using them.

I don't mean to write off Yoda's teachings and I've never invalidated what he said to Luke about believing in yourself and soon. But Yoda's worldview isn't all encompassing, so it can't be complete. That's all I was saying.

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Really, this is my last post on this because it's been going on for a while and I don't think we're going to come to any deeper of an understanding.

My stance on Yoda's teaching has been that everyone can relate to not believing in themselves/lacking confidence in some way and having it impact something in their life negatively. The force is a metaphor for believing in yourself to overcome challenges/unlock your potential. Differing world views or mental frameworks don't contradict this lesson in any way.

You're still conflating the different ways that minds work with with defining the force, at least partially, by scientific standards. These are not the same things. That is what has and is still not making any sense to me. Someone having a scientific mind doesn't suddenly justify quantifying or measuring the force (even if this is, technically canon, midis have virtually been written out of the franchise and likely will not return in the mainline films).

Really lol this is my last response because I think we've exhausted where we're going here. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Gustaf]

Ah so that is why it got extremely strong reviews unlike the prequels?


I mean the quality of filmmaking is clearly nowhere near the prequels...:

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the last jedi is gorgeus movie god damn

 

[Reven Wolf]

Really lol this is my last response because I think we've exhausted where we're going here. Thanks for the conversation.

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As a third party to your discussion I just wanted to say I loved reading it though!

the last jedi is gorgeus movie god damn

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Yeah it's kind of crazy how many absolutely gorgeous shots there are, and so many of them have such an epic sense of scale!

 

[Veelk]

Out of curiosity though, wouldn't this imply that a worldview can't change? I agree a world view isn't all encompassing, but feelings/emotions can usually play a part in most worldviews (including someone that focuses/thinks entirely in math etc?)

Like someone who thinks in math, could conceivably still get angry over something, which would affect his actions etc?

Or could such a person learn it in a different way then? I'm curious at your overall worldview interpretation and if being met with a conflicting world view could result in a change of worldview instead?

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Possibly, but in this case, it could actually weaken the force users abilities. If a force user draws their strength from firm belief in something, then you don't want doubts about that world view creeping in. So, while possible, Force Users are disincentivized from changing their minds.

And yeah, I never said emotions weren't part of the equation. But Yoda puts a special emphasis on emotions, whereas another school of thought might de-emphasize that aspect.

The force is a metaphor for believing in yourself to overcome challenges/unlock your potential.

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This might be the crux of the issue between us. For me, the force was a metaphor for whatever it is that the user believed in. I mean, do you think Palpatine would offer the same lessons on believing in yourself that Yoda would? No, he has a sociopathic, power hungry worldview and he encourages that in his followers. I guess you could say he has a version of "believing in yourself" but it's couched in different lessons than feeling things around him. But he still is a force user and one of the most powerful ones at that. And he was even unique in that he is the only one that used lightning for the longest time.

This only truly makes sense once you realize that the force doesn't really discriminate between users belief systems, but works towards how much people believe in them. As a result, a scientific framework would just be another one.

 

[Reven Wolf]

Possibly, but in this case, it could actually weaken the force users abilities. If a force user draws their strength from firm belief in something, then you don't want doubts about that world view creeping in. So, while possible, Force Users are disincentivized from changing their minds.

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Honestly this is such an interesting take, it actually reminds me of certain settings in some pen and paper role playing games, where the cleric/paladin equivalent isn't gaining power from their deity (though some believe in the deity etc) but from their conviction and belief in it lol.

 

[Gustaf]

also im not saying mark is unproffesional to do something as a sleepwalk during the movie if he dont like it.

but he acted his ass of on TLJ, i cant simply believe he "hated" it or anything.

his work on TLJ isnt the work of someone who is not happy about what he's doing

 

[Reven Wolf]

also im not saying mark is unproffesional to do something as a sleepwalk during the movie if he dont like it.

but he acted his ass of on TLJ, i cant simply believe he "hated" it or anything.

his work on TLJ isnt the work of someone who is not happy about what he's doing

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He literally called it a great movie lol.

He speaks his mind and definitely didn't agree with everything but he very much did his best, and is on record saying the above.

 

[Veelk]

Honestly this is such an interesting take, it actually reminds me of certain settings in some pen and paper role playing games, where the cleric/paladin equivalent isn't gaining power from their deity (though some believe in the deity etc) but from their conviction and belief in it lol.

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Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

The only other thing I can really say is that this is kind of the reason this is such an effective magic system, that it functions as a representation of the users character. So when it's used correctly, it is the manifestation of character development.

Other series that have employed this "Powers depend on belief" mechanism is Avatar the Last Airbender and The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. If your looking for different takes on this concept, those books are fantastic.

 

[Reven Wolf]

Other series that have employed this "Powers depend on belief" mechanism is Avatar the Last Airbender and The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. If your looking for different takes on this concept, those books are fantastic.

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Oathbringer is actually my new favourite book!

And I love the Last Airbender series (and the last two seasons of Kora lol)

 

[Uncle Squingis]

Here's one exchange:

1. Knowing about jedi and all their powers for her entire life;
2. Getting confirmation from a living legend that everything she heard about the jedi, the force, and their powers are true;

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Wait, when in the movie does it say she knew about all their powers?

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"Wait you knew Luke Skywalker?" and asking if the legends about him and the jedi are true in TFA.

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And another exchange:

She ALREADY KNOWS you can move objects with your mind

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Sure rocks.

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Your suggesting things that even the stories she heard would not mention or consider,

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Do you see how this is a contradiction in your argument?

 

[Gustaf]

He literally called it a great movie lol.

He speaks his mind and definitely didn't agree with everything but he very much did his best, and is on record saying the above.

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i know, but the people trying all the ways to twist his words, how can them not see that?

 

[carlosrox]

At the end of the day, the main reason TLJ is so reviled by large swathes of the fanbase still in a state of arrested development is because Luke didn't get out his saber and "fuck people up". That was true in December 2017 and it's true now.

It's not a coincidence that the majority of vocal TLJ haters tend to be vocal prequel lovers, the trilogy rich in fuck people uppery. AKA: their opinions on good filmmaking are worth shit.

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nice try, but prequel lovers dont exist, the fabric of reality does not permit such a thing

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You clearly haven't been to r/prequelmemes. The love there may have started out as ironic, but they are very much genuine in how they feel towards the prequels.

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It went from ironic to genuine to radicalized lol.

Now they trash anything related to Star Wars that isn't the prequels. It was quite a weird evolution.

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Well what if I love the prequels, original trilogy, and sequel trilogy?

I don't needlessly hate on shit so I find it cute when people who shit on the prequels get all hot and bothered when people shit on the sequels.

Hypocrisy.

A whiny fan is a whiny fan. And I'm not whining about the sequels, I rather love them, but that doesn't mean I don't have bones to pick with them (same with the prequels).

 

[Mona]

Well what if I love the prequels, original trilogy, and sequel trilogy?

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its all good, Dead Mans Chest is my favorite POTC movie even tho its pretty weak to most people from what i understand

 

[VonGreckler]

Well what if I love the prequels, original trilogy, and sequel trilogy?

I don't needlessly hate on shit so I find it cute when people who shit on the prequels get all hot and bothered when people shit on the sequels.

Hypocrisy.

A whiny fan is a whiny fan. And I'm not whining about the sequels, I rather love them, but that doesn't mean I don't have bones to pick with them (same with the prequels).

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But you're leaving out The Holiday Special Ewoks: Caravan of Courage?

Spoiler

Just kidding around, I love all the movies too.

 

[Reven Wolf]

i know, but the people trying all the ways to twist his words, how can them not see that?

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So your example of an exchange is me stating she knows about jedi powers from stories, you asked how, and I quoted/paraphrased a line from TFA to show that? I'm not sure what that proves when from what I see you never even acknowledged that either?

Do you see how this is a contradiction in your argument?

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Nope because by your logic, if a person saw a weightlifter lift something fairly heavy, that person would be very reasonable in thinking they could bench press a skyscraper.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and this marks at least the 4th/5th time I've mentioned it, however you haven't even acknowledged it once lol.

If every story she heard about Luke involved lifting rocks (now heavy rocks mind you) but nothing in the realm of AT-AT or giant canon weights, why would she assume it's even close to possible?

You also still ignored the idea that it might be harder to do while in a fast moving ship, especially when in the ending scene we see her standing perfectly still, close to the rocks and focusing really hard to lift them.

So, are you going to address any of what I said? Or are you going to ignore it, and repeat your argument yet again with no actual thought or attempt at discourse? Because everything I wrote is once again stuff that I have repeated multiple times (including in that final post you quoted) but you still conveniently ignore it.

Seriously why even bother coming back to quote something like that when all it shows is you're not reading the posts?

i know, but the people trying all the ways to twist his words, how can them not see that?

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Confirmation bias I imagine.

 

[Halbrand]

its all good, Dead Mans Chest is my favorite POTC movie even tho its pretty weak to most people from what i understand

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This is a good opinion

 

[Uncle Squingis]

So your example of an exchange is me stating she knows about jedi powers from stories, you asked how, and I quoted/paraphrased a line from TFA to show that? I'm not sure what that proves when from what I see you never even acknowledged that either?

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By "she knows ALL the jedi powers," I assumed you meant "she knows ALL the jedi powers."

Nope because by your logic, if a person saw a weightlifter lift something fairly heavy, that person would be very reasonable in thinking they could bench press a skyscraper.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp, and this marks at least the 4th/5th time I've mentioned it, however you haven't even acknowledged it once lol.

If every story she heard about Luke involved lifting rocks (now heavy rocks mind you) but nothing in the realm of AT-AT or giant canon weights, why would she assume it's even close to possible?

You also still ignored the idea that it might be harder to do while in a fast moving ship, especially when in the ending scene we see her standing perfectly still, close to the rocks and focusing really hard to lift them.

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Here's the thing though. Is there any evidence of exactly which stories she heard? She says she knows about the Jedi, and that can be used to lift things (she doesn't say rocks) and control people. In your head, she only heard about Luke lifting rocks and R2, and controlling people.

But in my head, well, Luke didn't stop with his Jedi training at all. In fact, his skills with the force kept growing and growing, and he went on to lift bigger and bigger things to the point where one time he even lifted a giant lew-lew-whal, which is a massive alien whale native to the ocean moon of Plutobrenda. Plus, this was a female lew-lew-whal, which are known to be bigger than male lew-lew-whals. He lifted this lew-lew-whal right out of the ocean, to the shock and amusement of many residents and non-residents of Plutobrenda. Yes, he had finally learned Yoda's lesson that "Size matters not." And due to the the scope of this magnificent feat of lew-lew-whal lifting, this is the story that got passed between planets and systems, and the one that Rey eventually heard. Of course, she doesn't explicitly say that the lew-lew-whal story was the one she heard, but she doesn't explicitly say that she did NOT hear the lew-lew-whal story.

Nothing in the movies contradicts my story, so I'm free to believe it. So during my watching of the ending of the Last Jedi, I was just confused at her actions, because according to me, she knows she can lift that cannon because she heard the stories of when Luke force-lifted that giant, confused lew-lew-whal.

It's the same as how she knew she could do the Jedi mind trick on the storm trooper because she heard that Luke had done it. Come to think of it, Luke only did Jedi mind tricks once in the OT. It was in Jabba's palace, and no one else was around to hear it. So was he doing them as parlor tricks after the Empire had been defeated? Just like fucking with people even when the galaxy wasn't at stake? How else would Rey learn about Jedi mind tricks to control people? That crazy-assed Luke!

Back to the Last Jedi, as for not having time for meditation, I just watched that scene again, Lord help me, and indeed there is a good amount of time between when Chewy and her escape from the cave and the first cannon blast. Plus, the first blast didn't kill anyone, so there would be even more time until the 2nd blast. This would seem an opportune time to fly back to where the fight was happening and try to do something. (Or, since there is no "try," to ACTUALLY do something.) And since you have such a problem with her being in a moving ship when meditating, she didn't even need to be flying in the Falcon when she did it. They could have landed BEHIND the row of ATATs and gotten out. (One major design flaw of ATATs is there are no guns on their hulking metallic asses.)

Instead, they fly in the OPPOSITE direction. Her and Chewie "nope" right the fuck out of that situation. I made a diagram:

"Hey guys where are you going? We could really use your help over here. What are you looking for back there? Do you somehow know there's a tunnel leading out of the cave? Did you like, read the script or something?"

 

[Reven Wolf]

Before I start, thank you for actually posting a larger body explaining your thought process.

By "she knows ALL the jedi powers," I assumed you meant "she knows ALL the jedi powers."

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So which of these ALL jedi powers involves lifting things like AT-ATs? Becuase it's not about knowledge of being able to lift, see my weight lifting example.

Here's the thing though. Is there any evidence of exactly which stories she heard? She says she knows about the Jedi, and that can be used to lift things (she doesn't say rocks) and control people. In your head, she only heard about Luke lifting rocks and R2, and controlling people.

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Sure, that's reasonable.

But in my head, well, Luke didn't stop with his Jedi training at all. In fact, his skills with the force kept growing and growing, and he went on to lift bigger and bigger things to the point where one time he even lifted a giant lew-lew-whal,

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So basically you're relying on your headcannon for this discussion?

which is a massive alien whale native to the ocean moon of Plutobrenda. Plus, this was a female lew-lew-whal, which are known to be bigger than male lew-lew-whals. He lifted this lew-lew-whal right out of the ocean, to the shock and amusement of many residents and non-residents of Plutobrenda. Yes, he had finally learned Yoda's lesson that "Size matters not." And due to the the scope of this magnificent feat of lew-lew-whal lifting, this is the story that got passed between planets and systems, and the one that Rey eventually heard. Of course, she doesn't explicitly say that the lew-lew-whal story was the one she heard, but she doesn't explicitly say that she did NOT hear the lew-lew-whal story.

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So yeah, total headcannon not supported by anything.

Nothing in the movies contradicts my story, so I'm free to believe it.

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Well except for the part where they don't try to lift something so gargantuan, that's a direct contradiction.

So during my watching of the ending of the Last Jedi, I was just confused at her actions, because according to me, she knows she can lift that cannon because she heard the stories of when Luke force-lifted that giant, confused lew-lew-whal.

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Right, so quite literally not the movies fault at all, and it's all in your head.

t's the same as how she knew she could do the Jedi mind trick on the storm trooper because she heard that Luke had done it.

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Well that, and you know, Kylo trying to force her to give up the rebel base using mind tricks (or potentially control?), the entire scene was pretty damn long to establish she had time to reverse engineer it.

Come to think of it, Luke only did Jedi mind tricks once in the OT. It was in Jabba's palace, and no one else was around to hear it. So was he doing them as parlor tricks after the Empire had been defeated? Just like fucking with people even when the galaxy wasn't at stake?

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So you're implying there would never be any reasonable time ever in which he might have used the mind trick in like 30 years? And despite you thinking that's unreasonable, you still rely on your own headcannon for the lifting??? That seems pretty inconsistent.

How else would Rey learn about Jedi mind tricks to control people? That crazy-assed Luke!

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Well that, and the scene that goes out of it's way to show it too lol.

Back to the Last Jedi, as for not having time for meditation, I just watched that scene again, Lord help me,

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Based on what you say below I do not believe this sentence lol.

Plus, the first blast didn't kill anyone, so there would be even more time until the 2nd blast.

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Right, because the canon was made to get through the blast doors. It didn't need a second blast because the first one got through. Remember? The big hole that luke went through.

This would seem an opportune time to fly back to where the fight was happening and try to do something.

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Like what exactly? A single ship destroying all the ground forces including the At-ATs?

And since you have such a problem with her being in a moving ship when meditating, she didn't even need to be flying in the Falcon when she did it.

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That's missing the point entirely lol. Her physical body would still be moving all over the fucking place because the falcon needed to do evasive maneuvers, and the position of the canon relative to her was changing constantly, there is a world of difference lol.

Also you never did adress the whole "just turn the canon" comment you made :P

hey could have landed BEHIND the row of ATATs and gotten out. (One major design flaw of ATATs is there are no guns on their hulking metallic asses.)

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Ok, so they land behind the AT-ATs, now what? You do know the FO still had ground forces right? They weren't going to win such a fight lol, do you expect the FO to just stand there and watch as she tries to slowly lift the canon (that already fired?)

Instead, they fly in the OPPOSITE direction. Her and Chewie "nope" right the fuck out of that situation. I made a diagram:

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You really need to actually pay attention when you watch scenes.

"Hey guys where are you going? We could really use your help over here. What are you looking for back there? Do you somehow know there's a tunnel leading out of the cave? Did you like, read the script or something?"

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Great job embarrassing yourself! The movie explains very clearly how they found the tunnel exit lol. Before you make sarcastic script changes you should make sure of what you're writing because this proves you either weren't paying attention, or literally didn't watch it.

Overall it seems that your major gripes against the movie are not because of flaws and "plot holes" (which I would again like to point you you incorrectly called it that earlier), but with the fact it doesn't conform to your headcannon on what Luke did after the OT, and what the force is capable of etc.

 

[Buttchin-n-Bones]

Other series that have employed this "Powers depend on belief" mechanism is Avatar the Last Airbender and The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. If your looking for different takes on this concept, those books are fantastic.

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Wait, I need a reminder

How is strength of faith a reflection of magical powers in SA?

 

[Reven Wolf]

How is strength of faith a reflection of magical powers in SA?

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Spoiler: Stormlight Archive

While "faith" might not be the exact right word, the Knights Radient get their powers from oaths, and their following of their respective belief system (windrunners for example in the protection of others)

 

[Buttchin-n-Bones]

Spoiler: Stormlight Archive

While "faith" might not be the exact right word, the Knights Radient get their powers from oaths, and their following of their respective belief system (windrunners for example in the protection of others)

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Oh yeah gotcha. The levels. Yes I recall now

 

[Veelk]

Wait, I need a reminder

How is strength of faith a reflection of magical powers in SA?

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Spoiler: SA Spoilers

Well, I guess it's not beliefs per se, but to gain their power, the Knights Radiant have to develop their character from a certain point to where they can take an oath. And if they behave in a way that strays away from that oath, their powers diminish.

Either way, the point is, these sorts of magic systems are really useful for stories because it means that the character gains their power specifically by developing their character, and that's the connection I was making.

 

[Deleted member 41271]

As it stands, Episode 7-9 will be a huge disservice to the first 6 movies. All of the original trilogy characters have been 100% wasted. Even Chewie.

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Movie 8 was a lot better than the first six movies. A *lot* better.

Sure, it was not perfect. Every movie has a flaw. But compared to the old stuff? Such an improvement. It's hard to overstate how much it improved on them, in fact.

 

[Uncle Squingis]

So which of these ALL jedi powers involves lifting things like AT-ATs?

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It's reasonable to assume she heard about this in the Jedi lore. If you can lift rocks you can lift an X-Wing and you can lift an ATAT.

So basically you're relying on your headcannon for this discussion?

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So yeah, total headcannon not supported by anything.

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Right, so quite literally not the movies fault at all, and it's all in your head.

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You got me, the story I made up about the lew-lew-whal on Plutobrenda is in my head. I admit it. But then you also have to admit that the stories that YOU say she heard are also YOUR head. Because she never says in the movies which stories she heard.

 

[Elandyll]

Movie 8 was a lot better than the first six movies. A *lot* better.

Sure, it was not perfect. Every movie has a flaw. But compared to the old stuff? Such an improvement. It's hard to overstate how much it improved on them, in fact.

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Not fact all though...

Very much opinion, "in fact", mine being that 8 was bottom tier trash, in good company with Aotc and PM.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Can you two get a room

 

[Reven Wolf]

You got me, the story I made up about the lew-lew-whal on Plutobrenda is in my head. I admit it. But then you also have to admit that the stories that YOU say she heard are also YOUR head. Because she never says in the movies which stories she heard.

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Except I didn't make up any stories lol.

I just pointed out she would have heard stories of things of what Luke was shown to be capable of. There is a very obvious difference between what I said and what you said.

Can you two get a room

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Not enough money in the world lol.

 

[VonGreckler]

Instead, they fly in the OPPOSITE direction. Her and Chewie "nope" right the fuck out of that situation. I made a diagram:
"Hey guys where are you going? We could really use your help over here. What are you looking for back there? Do you somehow know there's a tunnel leading out of the cave? Did you like, read the script or something?"

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I thought it was pretty clear that the speeders were getting chewed up by TIE fighters, and the Falcon flew away to draw all the TIEs away from the battle. Like, if you just pay attention to the movie this decision makes perfect sense.

 

[Deleted member 41178]

Ah so that is why it got extremely strong reviews unlike the prequels?


I mean the quality of filmmaking is clearly nowhere near the prequels...:

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As much as I dislike TLJ I cannot deny it is a gorgeous looking movie.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

I thought it was pretty clear that the same speeders were getting chewed up by TIE fighters, and the Falcon flew away to draw all the TIEs away from the battle. Like, if you just pay attention to the movie this decision makes perfect sense.

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But why didn't Rey Goku destroy the mini Death Star laser of death with her force powers from the Falcon?

 

[Surfinn]

I mean I've heard multiple times that AOTC is a better movie than TLJ.. on this forum

So there's that

By "she knows ALL the jedi powers," I assumed you meant "she knows ALL the jedi powers."



Here's the thing though. Is there any evidence of exactly which stories she heard? She says she knows about the Jedi, and that can be used to lift things (she doesn't say rocks) and control people. In your head, she only heard about Luke lifting rocks and R2, and controlling people.

But in my head, well, Luke didn't stop with his Jedi training at all. In fact, his skills with the force kept growing and growing, and he went on to lift bigger and bigger things to the point where one time he even lifted a giant lew-lew-whal, which is a massive alien whale native to the ocean moon of Plutobrenda. Plus, this was a female lew-lew-whal, which are known to be bigger than male lew-lew-whals. He lifted this lew-lew-whal right out of the ocean, to the shock and amusement of many residents and non-residents of Plutobrenda. Yes, he had finally learned Yoda's lesson that "Size matters not." And due to the the scope of this magnificent feat of lew-lew-whal lifting, this is the story that got passed between planets and systems, and the one that Rey eventually heard. Of course, she doesn't explicitly say that the lew-lew-whal story was the one she heard, but she doesn't explicitly say that she did NOT hear the lew-lew-whal story.

Nothing in the movies contradicts my story, so I'm free to believe it. So during my watching of the ending of the Last Jedi, I was just confused at her actions, because according to me, she knows she can lift that cannon because she heard the stories of when Luke force-lifted that giant, confused lew-lew-whal.

It's the same as how she knew she could do the Jedi mind trick on the storm trooper because she heard that Luke had done it. Come to think of it, Luke only did Jedi mind tricks once in the OT. It was in Jabba's palace, and no one else was around to hear it. So was he doing them as parlor tricks after the Empire had been defeated? Just like fucking with people even when the galaxy wasn't at stake? How else would Rey learn about Jedi mind tricks to control people? That crazy-assed Luke!

Back to the Last Jedi, as for not having time for meditation, I just watched that scene again, Lord help me, and indeed there is a good amount of time between when Chewy and her escape from the cave and the first cannon blast. Plus, the first blast didn't kill anyone, so there would be even more time until the 2nd blast. This would seem an opportune time to fly back to where the fight was happening and try to do something. (Or, since there is no "try," to ACTUALLY do something.) And since you have such a problem with her being in a moving ship when meditating, she didn't even need to be flying in the Falcon when she did it. They could have landed BEHIND the row of ATATs and gotten out. (One major design flaw of ATATs is there are no guns on their hulking metallic asses.)

Instead, they fly in the OPPOSITE direction. Her and Chewie "nope" right the fuck out of that situation. I made a diagram:

"Hey guys where are you going? We could really use your help over here. What are you looking for back there? Do you somehow know there's a tunnel leading out of the cave? Did you like, read the script or something?"

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Let me get this straight. Are you talking about when the TIEs show up? The movie specifically tells us (Poe) that Rey did this to draw them away from the fight on the ground, and that it worked, because they were about to blast everyone to oblivion. The speeders were fish in a barrel once the TIEs showed up.

Poe: She drew them off! /cheers

If Rey wouldn't have done that, all or almost all of the speeders would have been destroyed.

 

[Replicant]

Movie 8 was a lot better than the first six movies. A *lot* better.

Sure, it was not perfect. Every movie has a flaw. But compared to the old stuff? Such an improvement. It's hard to overstate how much it improved on them, in fact.

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I'm not sure if there is anyone but you who would claim Episode 8 is better than any of the OT movies.

 

[Uncle Squingis]

I thought it was pretty clear that the speeders were getting chewed up by TIE fighters, and the Falcon flew away to draw all the TIEs away from the battle. Like, if you just pay attention to the movie this decision makes perfect sense.

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God I wish I paid attention! Like, am I just imagining when the Milennium Falcon majestically escapes the Cave of Wonders and there are shown to be no more TIEs following them, and instead of flying back to the battle, they fly away from it? That's not in the movie? Then it doesn't cut back to the ATATs and the rebel speeders, showing no more TIEs flying overhead? Who's not paying attention again?

 

[Replicant]

I mean I've heard multiple times that AOTC is a better movie than TLJ.. on this forum

So there's that

Let me get this straight. Are you talking about when the TIEs show up? The movie specifically tells us (Poe) that Rey did this to draw them away from the fight on the ground, and that it worked, because they were about to blast everyone to oblivion. The speeders were fish in a barrel once the TIEs showed up.

Poe: She drew them off! /cheers

If Rey wouldn't have done that, all or almost all of the speeders would have been destroyed.

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None of the speeders did anything anyway, so okay it kept Poe, rose and Finn alive. Finn had a suicide run that was blocked anyway..so again another plot point with Finn, Poe and Rose that goes nowhere.

 

[Reven Wolf]

so again another plot point with Finn, Poe and Rose that goes nowhere.

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Except that failure to accomplish a goal does not make something pointless. It was literally the climax where their character archs completed lol.

hen it doesn't cut back to the ATATs and the rebel speeders, showing no more TIEs flying overhead?

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It's almost like they got pulled away chasing the falcon!

m I just imagining when the Milennium Falcon majestically escapes the Cave of Wonders and there are shown to be no more TIEs following them, and they then fly away from the battle?

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Yes actually you totally are!


The clip in question, where you see the ties chasing the falcon into the red cave.

Who's not paying attention again?

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Very clearly you.

 

[Uncle Squingis]

I said when they escape the cave of wonders. Please pay attention.

Here's my diagram again:

 

[Reven Wolf]

I said when they escape the cave of wonders. Please pay attention.

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I'll, make you a deal, I'll "pay attention" when you learn to actually address more than one point instead of ingoring literally literally everything else in post :)

Especially when you never answered what doing something like:

They could have landed BEHIND the row of ATATs and gotten out. (One major design flaw of ATATs is there are no guns on their hulking metallic asses.)

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Still waiting on that along with literally 98% of everything else I brought up lol.

They distracted the ties, but weren't going to be able to do much against the walkers (which has been established as early as ESB where it took many ships to take down a few, and these are the new models too)

Here's my diagram again:

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And it's still just as wrong! Funny that!

Maybe it'll improve if you actually stick to points?

 

[Deleted member 7051]

I'm not sure if there is anyone but you who would claim Episode 8 is better than any of the OT movies.

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I've actually heard that a lot here. In fact, some people have even claimed only fans of the OT care about Luke's portrayal, although that only started being a thing once they couldn't handwave that Mark Hamill wasn't happy with it either.

Seems we're shifting from "you only dislike the sequel trilogy if you're a prequel fan" to "you only dislike the sequel trilogy if you were a Star Wars fan before 2015". It's a little bit silly.

 

[Gustaf]

None of the speeders did anything anyway, so okay it kept Poe, rose and Finn alive. Finn had a suicide run that was blocked anyway..so again another plot point with Finn, Poe and Rose that goes nowhere.

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i dont understand why for you people when something has a bad end for the protagonists it "went nowhere"


just like people say canto was pointless when literally the second part of the movie is consequence of canto bight, but because it went bad for our protagonists "it went nowhere"

like holy shit man. are you so used to the good guys having everything go according to plan that when they dont, you cant simple process it?