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Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
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You could say the same for a myriad of different issues - are you advocating for more leniency in general toward people with shit views?
You could say the same for other issues, yes, but 1) this issue seems generally able to be discussed without triggering significant negative emotional impact for *most* folks, and 2) I've seen people grow in their understanding on this issue through engaging with the topic (moreso than other issues).
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
Calling an asshole? No, never. I've called my daughter a dingus in jest before but never been mean about it.

Physical abuse is obviously a no. I am an advocate of light spanking in certain circumstances (very specific ones) but nothing beyond that because 1) anything above that is abuse and 2) most people take it too far and will also spank in anger anyway. Those are the people who need to not have kids.

I've also yet to spank my daughter because she's barely 1 and she can't comprehend why I would do it if I had.

Light spanking is problematic as well. We need to move beyond this.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
Calling an asshole? No, never. I've called my daughter a dingus in jest before but never been mean about it.

Physical abuse is obviously a no. I am an advocate of light spanking in certain circumstances (very specific ones) but nothing beyond that because 1) anything above that is abuse and 2) most people take it too far and will also spank in anger anyway. Those are the people who need to not have kids.

I've also yet to spank my daughter because she's barely 1 and she can't comprehend why I would do it if I had.
Literally any form of corporal punishment is physical abuse. This issue has been studied extensively and it's been repeatedly found that
1. No form of physical punishment is actually an effective way of teaching kids
2. Literally all of them, no matter how "light" are very likely to cause a number of bad effects on the kid

But please explain to me how inflicting physical punishment on a kid which has been proven to not work and only cause harm isn't abuse just because you're not doing it as hard as other people do
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,965
Hey, it's down to people with non shitty views on topics to tolerate people's abhorrent views until the shitty views person has changed!
Apparently this forum should be a ABC's classroom where boomers learn why it's not alright to abuse kids. Should 100% allow people to advocate for beating kids in threads on the off chance someone's post makes it click that actually that's not acceptable.

You could say the same for other issues, yes, but 1) this issue seems generally able to be discussed without triggering significant negative emotional impact for *most* folks, and 2) I've seen people grow in their understanding on this issue through engaging with the topic (moreso than other issues).
I don't see allowing the discussion and showing tolerance towards views advocating for child abuse as being more effective and better for the community at large than rejecting and rebuking it wholesale, making it clear that such a position isn't the mere domain of a few members but a stance from a relatively large forum as a whole.

The rejection of that belief by a community, by society at large and by psychological associations the world over, should be enough to make it click. The answer isn't to tolerate individuals for which it doesn't until something does.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,209
Canada
lol I cant believe this is up for debate.

Im sure half of you wouldn't hit a random asshole even if he did some heinous thing to deserve it, but yours kids are free game???
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
Apparently this forum should be a ABC's classroom where boomers learn why it's not alright to abuse kids. Should 100% allow people to advocate for beating kids in threads on the off chance someone's post makes it click that actually that's not acceptable.


I don't see allowing the discussion and showing tolerance towards views advocating for child abuse as being more effective and better for the community at large than rejecting and rebuking it wholesale, making it clear that such a position isn't the mere domain of a few members but a stance from a relatively large forum as a whole.
I can see that. It would be very helpful if there could be a write up with links that is posted along with the staff thread mark on such threads — something like that was developed for threads re: trans athletes and I think it's really helpful.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,209
Canada
Guys I know that all the evidence on this highly studied issue has suggested it has literally no positive effects and is incredibly likely to lead to a variety of negative outcomes, some of which are very severe, but I personally don't think it's a big issue so clearly it isn't abuse /s

SERIOUSLY. WHY DO WE NEVER LISTEN TO STATS AND STUDIES?????

Because the old wives tales we've told ourselves """work"""?????
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,965
I can see that. It would be very helpful if there could be a write up with links that is posted along with the staff thread mark on such threads — something like that was developed for threads re: trans athletes and I think it's really helpful.
Added a further point which is worth reiterating if missed: The rejection of that belief - that abusing children is in any way acceptable - by a community, by society at large and by psychological associations the world over, should be enough to make it click. The answer isn't to tolerate individuals for which it doesn't until something does.

I don't think that that suggestion is a bad one though, despite the thought of it being needed being fundamentally depressing. The tale of the thread does suggest so though. Certainly if a topic were made in the future links to the psychological ramifications of abuse could be both useful to the unspoken and give less leeway to people peddling the "what's the harm - I was fine!" rhetoric.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,427
SERIOUSLY. WHY DO WE NEVER LISTEN TO STATS AND STUDIES?????

Because the old wives tales we've told ourselves """work"""?????
Yeah, this is at the point where saying spanking and the like is bad isn't an opinion, it's literally scientific fact. But people like to trust their gut more than they do actual evidence which really sucks
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,886
Calling your kids little fuckers out of ear shot when they're bei f a handful I don't have an issie with.

Say it to their faces or hit them at all and you're an arsehole.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
99% of children who have ever lived have been physically disciplined by their parents. As long as it isn't part of a larger cycle of abuse, getting a smack and being called an asshole when they deserve it is not going to damage a child.

getting smacked causes no damage confirmed
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
11,403
I can see that. It would be very helpful if there could be a write up with links that is posted along with the staff thread mark on such threads — something like that was developed for threads re: trans athletes and I think it's really helpful.
This is actually a good idea and in most cases is actually what is done so that the discussion isn't going the wrong way, particularly in hotly debated things like this.

Also, not to be a dickbear but the threadmark mentions the "general guide to ResetERA" and I've been clicking links all over trying to find it. I found the TOS and such we agreed to down in the footer but literally cannot find the general guide. It needs to be a bit easier to find for people and if it's presented to us when we sign up (I honestly cannot remember) it needs to be easily findable again.
 

CrazyDude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,727
The only reason why society is ok with hitting children is because they have no power or voice in society. This is why I reject the notion that it is none of your business how a person raises their kid.
 

Otnopolit

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,590
As for all the "well intentioned" devil's advocates arguments such as "what if you need to hit your child so they don't hurt themselves or others?", restraints I suppose are the answer. I'm restraint trained as an ABA therapist and while they are not physically harmful to the child, they are still considered a last resort and there are many important regulations and guidelines as to when they are appropriate to use. There are non-violent solutions to all the crazy shit you could scheme up as being possible reasons why you physically harm a child.

Martin, I thought you were cool. Turns out you're just another white male unable to progress as society attempts to sort it's shit out.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Until relatively (last 50 or so years) recently hitting your wife to "discipline" her was standard practice in America and it's also common in many parts of the world. It's possible to suffer abuse and still lead a "normal" life. This doesn't mean it wasn't abuse. It just means most people have the capacity to overcome mental damage. But it does mean that it is impossible to judge whether or not some practice is harmful based on surface appearances, because everyone is a complex collection of little traumas and scars they carry around all their life. We need to abandon the notion that someone has to be totally debilitated to count as "abuse" because it creates the inverse equivalence of "if it doesn't debilitate you then, its not wrong".

Cultural norms, especially when its about preserving the powerful's authority over the powerless, ain't shit.
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,572
Canadia
I think the defensiveness on this topic mirrors the way people debate the ethics of circumcision. It's the cognitive dissonance caused by the idea that a person's parents might have done something wrong to them, and that they themselves might have done something wrong to their kids as a result. And not just wrong; because if it's not cool to trim the skin of a baby's penis, then we're talking mutilation, and if it's not cool to smack a kid on the back of the legs, then we're talking physical abuse.

It's a really difficult pill to swallow, both from a cultural perspective, and because of the way it reframes so much complex family behaviour.

Edit: This is also similar to the way people face the fact their their definition of rape was woefully insufficient; and they have to reframe their life experiences with new, upsetting labels.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
imagine being the person who advocates for negatively putting your hands on children, shesh
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
imagine being the person who advocates for negatively putting your hands on children, shesh
It's not hard to imagine - people internalize it as "normal" or "not harmful" or even (in retrospect) "effective" when they experience it growing up, and so they defend it or diminish the negative impact when they consider the concept as an adult.

It shouldn't be surprising that people do this even in the face of data and studies — it's really hard to see outside of what you think is normal. And on top of that, the practice is so widespread that it's easy to think "Well I don't see the harm that people are talking about — it doesn't match my experience."
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,209
Canada
I think the defensiveness on this topic mirrors the way people debate the ethics of circumcision. It's the cognitive dissonance caused by the idea that a person's parents might have done something wrong to them, and that they themselves might have done something wrong to their kids as a result. And not just wrong; because if it's not cool to trim the skin of a baby's penis, then we're talking mutilation, and if it's not cool to smack a kid on the back of the legs, then we're talking physical abuse.

It's a really difficult pill to swallow, both from a cultural perspective, and because of the way it reframes so much complex family behaviour.

Edit: This is also similar to the way people face the fact their their definition of rape was woefully insufficient; and they have to reframe their life experiences with new, upsetting labels.

interesting perspective... why is it so hard to admit you did a bad thing, life is easier when you're willing to take a dive on shit.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
Getting whipped as a kid is part of what fucked me up. I got slapped in the face numerous times too. There's tons of other things that fucked up me too which won't get into. I could write "And I stand here today JUST FINE!" because I'm literally alive but that doesn't mean the abuse didn't affect me in ways I can't comprehend. I usually blame those other things for me being who I am, discounting the physical abuse, but that's just my choice and I have no way of knowing. So even those that come in here and claim to be just fine have really nothing to compare their experience to. We don't have a version of their life that wasn't abused.
All this to say, don't hit kids, and your anecdote doesn't mean shit, in any conceivable way.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,325
Full disclosure: I am not a parent, was physically disciplined as a child.

I do not advocate using violence on children because it does not work.

To prove this, I am also a teacher who deals with tons of kids whose parents (probably) spank their kids. They come back to me madder than ever, more resentful of the person who got them in trouble in the first place.

I do not advocate using violence on children because it is cruel.

I was always bullied as a child and told I should learn to fight and stand up for myself, but I never could. I learned that picking on someone because they are smaller or weaker does not make them a stronger person. It left me with emotional scars that remain to this day.

I'm going to depart from the pack on this issue because I feel it is necessary to disclose whether you were hit, and whether you hit your own kids.

It's like entering a thread about drinking alcohol and no one says they ever drank alcohol.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,902
If he's saying all that with seriousness and not joking around, then he's a sick man and his kids should be taken away from him.
 

lokiduck

The Fallen
Mar 27, 2019
9,120
Washington
I was one of those kids who only did something wrong once, got punished for it and would never do it again (though in this case the punishments were based around mom using my full name in a slightly harsh tone, making me sit in time out, and taking away the tv or a toy I wanted to play with.)

The only time I ever got spanked was one time when my mom tried every other punishment in the book first but little me kept insisting on getting into my dads tapes and trying to pull the film out. So finally she spanked me and I never did it again.

However, that still doesn't mean she should have resorted to spanking me. While my mom and I get along fabulously and that event never seriously harmed that relationship, it's still wrong to punish any child physically. In fact, while it may have not harmed our relationship, I have realized later in life that it may have made me way more nervous about upsetting her, which is why I still sometimes panic when I do even the littlest things wrong. Of course part of why I don't want to upset her is also because I love her and care about her like she cares about me, but it's still funny how something like this can affect you.

So seeing all the others in these threads go "I got hit once and I turned out fine" just makes me side eye them a bit. :/ Just because you turned out fine doesn't mean you should condone physical punishment happening to kids.
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
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Oct 28, 2017
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I was one of those kids who only did something wrong once, got punished for it and would never do it again (though in this case the punishments were based around mom using my full name in a slightly harsh tone, making me sit in time out, and taking away the tv or a toy I wanted to play with.)

The only time I ever got spanked was one time when my mom tried every other punishment in the book first but little me kept insisting on getting into my dads tapes and trying to pull the film out. So finally she spanked me and I never did it again.

However, that still doesn't mean she should have resorted to spanking me. While my mom and I get along fabulously and that event never seriously harmed that relationship, it's still wrong to punish any child physically. In fact, while it may have not harmed our relationship, I have realized later in life that it may have made me way more nervous about upsetting her, which is why I still sometimes panic when I do even the littlest things wrong. Obviously I'm an adult now, but I still have these concerns so it's amazing how things like this can affect you.

So seeing all the others in these threads go "I got hit once and I turned out fine" just makes me side eye them a bit. :/ Just because you turned out fine doesn't mean you should condone physical punishment happening to kids.
Totally makes sense. And to anyone who would reply to this by saying, "But you said it yourself that it was a last resort! So she's supposed to just let you get into your dad's tapes?" The answer is that humans are endlessly creative — put some thought into non-violent consequences for kids and you'll come up with lots of ideas.
 

lokiduck

The Fallen
Mar 27, 2019
9,120
Washington
Totally makes sense. And to anyone who would reply to this by saying, "But you said it yourself that it was a last resort! So she's supposed to just let you get into your dad's tapes?" The answer is that humans are endlessly creative — put some thought into non-violent consequences for kids and you'll come up with lots of ideas.
Yepppp. My dad had a lot of tapes (he works in video editing so he had a wall of them), but I'm sure if she had found away to keep them out of little me's reach and distracted me I would have eventually given up on them. Mind you she apparently closed the door to the room and I still got inside because I had recently learned to open doors. XD

Full disclosure: I am not a parent, was physically disciplined as a child.

I do not advocate using violence on children because it does not work.

To prove this, I am also a teacher who deals with tons of kids whose parents (probably) spank their kids. They come back to me madder than ever, more resentful of the person who got them in trouble in the first place.

I do not advocate using violence on children because it is cruel.

I was always bullied as a child and told I should learn to fight and stand up for myself, but I never could. I learned that picking on someone because they are smaller or weaker does not make them a stronger person. It left me with emotional scars that remain to this day.

I'm going to depart from the pack on this issue because I feel it is necessary to disclose whether you were hit, and whether you hit your own kids.

It's like entering a thread about drinking alcohol and no one says they ever drank alcohol.

Agreed with all of this. We had a few students in my old school who had a lot of unexpected behavior because of how they were punished for acting out at home.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
I know this, but hitting her is something i will never do. My family has the attitude of if your kids dont do what you want hit them. I was beat as a child. Not just with a belt. All that made me was afraid to do something wrong and afraid of my parents. To this day I never felt comfortable around them and i even feel weird telling them i love them(even though i do). My family asked us if we were going to hit her and we said no. They judged us. Forgive me for having the opposite attitude.

I'm not saying anyone should hit your child. I'm saying don't act smug because your 1 year old says thank you with this holier than thou "I guess it's just as easy as being a good parent, weird" attitude. You've barely even begun to see the affects of your parenting when your child is 1. There was heavy implications of "if your child isn't as good as mine then you're not as good a parent as me" in your post which is bullshit.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,629
Canada
I'm not saying anyone should hit your child. I'm saying don't act smug because your 1 year old says thank you with this holier than thou "I guess it's just as easy as being a good parent, weird" attitude. You've barely even begun to see the affects of your parenting when your child is 1. There was heavy implications of "if your child isn't as good as mine then you're not as good a parent as me" in your post which is bullshit.
Why are you arguing so hard against this guy for saying "Hey, my 1 year old is pretty cool because they say thank you."?
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
Why are you arguing so hard against this guy for saying "Hey, my 1 year old is pretty cool because they say thank you."?

That's not what they said though.


Because it's on the total opposite side of the spectrum from from the thread topic and we needed both sides of parenting represented somehow.

Don't hit your kids, but also fuck you for raising them to be polite.

that's not what's happening either. Did either of you two read my posts or the post I was responding to? If you did it should be pretty easy to see what I'm talking about. Where did I say "fuck you for raising your kids to be polite"?
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,634
The ever common "It happened to me and I turned out fine" rationalization is unsettling on multiple fronts. Not only have you decided that you're the representative of every human being that's ever been struck by their parents, but at the same time disregarding everyone who did not "turn out fine".
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,246
It's crazy to think that this is something that drastically changed between my parents' and my generation.
I got my ass whooped from time to time but I will never ever lay a hand on my children.
Not sure if that's just anecdotal but I feel like this generational step made all the difference in this regard.

Not a good look for Martin Freeman.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,220
I'm not saying anyone should hit your child. I'm saying don't act smug because your 1 year old says thank you with this holier than thou "I guess it's just as easy as being a good parent, weird" attitude. You've barely even begun to see the affects of your parenting when your child is 1. There was heavy implications of "if your child isn't as good as mine then you're not as good a parent as me" in your post which is bullshit.
I have older children (they'll be 6 and 3 this year) and this is an unfair attitude that betrays insecurity about your own confidence in your parenting. My kids have both vacillated (at different times) between being perfectly-behaved youngsters that other parents looked enviously at, and disruptive monsters that I was mortified to be associated with. That's just life; we don't even expect adults to be perfectly behaved around the clock, even though most of them have decades' more experience moderating their emotions than children do.

For what it's worth, I routinely doubt my own parenting in the low points, and I occasionally sit back and think "I must be doing a decent job" at the high points. Even at the lowest ebbs, though, I've never hit them. Restrained? Yes. Removed from a situation and isolated? Absolutely. Raised my voice at? More often than I'd like, but yes, absolutely.

Here's something I've openly admitted to people before: I fully understand how parents can get pushed so far they feel like hurting their children. Our youngest was a hellish baby, and for the first year of his life I was surviving on about an hour's sleep a night, on the landing floor, because my wife had passed her own breaking point. I was a physical and emotional wreck, my business nearly failed, my marriage was on the rocks, and when he started screaming again for the twentieth time that night and I was just about to grab five minutes' sleep, my hands instinctively balled up and my teeth gritted all on their own. That was a bad place to be, and it crept up on me through no conscious process; it was purely reptilian. But when that happened - and it was more than once - I just didn't go into the room. I went outside, into the garden, and stared at the stars until I calmed down.

The thing is, acting on that violent impulse is completely selfish, and it's damaging to both the perpetrator and the victim. Lashing out in anger is a very base instinct, and the few times in my life that I've really shouted at or confronted another adult, I've regretted it when my conscious mind kicked back in and the adrenaline subsided. No child can properly rationalise the reasons for the anger a parent might be feeling, because that anger is only in the parent's head. And if that anger manifests itself as violence, however mild, then the violence is all the child can see. The only person who gets any emotional "release" from it is the parent - hence why I say hitting your kids is an inherently selfish act.

I was hurt as a kid. Much more than smacking. My mum threw me at a wall as a baby - something she still thinks is wistfully funny today - and my dad gave me a shoulder injury as a toddler that's lasted into my late thirties. None of that did anything to help me understand or moderate my behaviour. It just made me afraid, and resentful.

I turned out ok in spite of my upbringing. And the older I get, the more distance I can put between the person I am today and the childhood I had - privileged on the surface, but physically and emotionally messed up underneath - the better I understand that nobody's judging you but yourself. And if you feel remorse after hitting your children - which I'm sure everyone who advocates it does, whether they admit it or not - then you already know you're doing the wrong thing - for them and for you.
 

Cokie Bear

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,944
I have older children (they'll be 6 and 3 this year) and this is an unfair attitude that betrays insecurity about your own confidence in your parenting. My kids have both vacillated (at different times) between being perfectly-behaved youngsters that other parents looked enviously at, and disruptive monsters that I was mortified to be associated with. That's just life; we don't even expect adults to be perfectly behaved around the clock, even though most of them have decades' more experience moderating their emotions than children do.

For what it's worth, I routinely doubt my own parenting in the low points, and I occasionally sit back and think "I must be doing a decent job" at the high points. Even at the lowest ebbs, though, I've never hit them. Restrained? Yes. Removed from a situation and isolated? Absolutely. Raised my voice at? More often than I'd like, but yes, absolutely.

Here's something I've openly admitted to people before: I fully understand how parents can get pushed so far they feel like hurting their children. Our youngest was a hellish baby, and for the first year of his life I was surviving on about an hour's sleep a night, on the landing floor, because my wife had passed her own breaking point. I was a physical and emotional wreck, my business nearly failed, my marriage was on the rocks, and when he started screaming again for the twentieth time that night and I was just about to grab five minutes' sleep, my hands instinctively balled up and my teeth gritted all on their own. That was a bad place to be, and it crept up on me through no conscious process; it was purely reptilian. But when that happened - and it was more than once - I just didn't go into the room. I went outside, into the garden, and stared at the stars until I calmed down.

The thing is, acting on that violent impulse is completely selfish, and it's damaging to both the perpetrator and the victim. Lashing out in anger is a very base instinct, and the few times in my life that I've really shouted at or confronted another adult, I've regretted it when my conscious mind kicked back in and the adrenaline subsided. No child can properly rationalise the reasons for the anger a parent might be feeling, because that anger is only in the parent's head. And if that anger manifests itself as violence, however mild, then the violence is all the child can see. The only person who gets any emotional "release" from it is the parent - hence why I say hitting your kids is an inherently selfish act.

I was hurt as a kid. Much more than smacking. My mum threw me at a wall as a baby - something she still thinks is wistfully funny today - and my dad gave me a shoulder injury as a toddler that's lasted into my late thirties. None of that did anything to help me understand or moderate my behaviour. It just made me afraid, and resentful.

I turned out ok in spite of my upbringing. And the older I get, the more distance I can put between the person I am today and the childhood I had - privileged on the surface, but physically and emotionally messed up underneath - the better I understand that nobody's judging you but yourself. And if you feel remorse after hitting your children - which I'm sure everyone who advocates it does, whether they admit it or not - then you already know you're doing the wrong thing - for them and for you.

I think you quoted the wrong person.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,749
Toronto, ON
Personally, being hit or spanked never worked on me. It didn't dissuade me from anything or make me learn any lesson. I took my lumps and went on. My patents never spoke to me about anything. It's a pointless and shit way to correct your kids that will give you a worse relationship with them.
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065