Martin Scorsese writes an Op Ed in the NY Times explaining his Marvel comments

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

BossAttack said:
To go in more depth, again, I'll point to my earlier post:

You know that tongue-in-cheek post that paints ever Scorsese film as a "Crime Flick" but every MCU film as super different, that's where you're veering. Let's just limit the discussion of Goodfellas and Casino. I think even you will conceded that The Godfather, despite also being a film focused on the mob, is totally different from those films. Goodfellas and Casino are NOT the same, they touch similar subject matter and hit similar beats, but what they are revealing is different. The characters are different. Their motivations are different.

As I got at before, Goodfellas opens with Henry Hill boldly proclaiming that "as far back as I can remember, I wanted to be a a gangster." The film depicts his rise and fall as a gangster, it ends with him in witness protection as a schmuck, a nobody. He doesn't regret anything he did. He loved being a gangster. He hates what he has been forced to become, a nobody. His rise and fall were the result of his violent actions.

Sam Rothstein starts casino with this, "When you love someone, you've gotta trust them. There's no other way. You've got to give them the key to everything that's yours. Otherwise, what's the point? And, for a while... I believed that's the kind of love I had." This is important as it setups the whole film, his motivations, and his fall. Sam wanted to be a respected businessman, he never wanted to be a gangster. He wanted respect and love. His downfall is the eventual result of trusting and loving someone who never actually loved him back. Here's his closing, "But in the end, I wound up right back where I started. I could still pick winners, and I could still make money for all kinds of people back home. And why mess up a good thing? And that's that." It's not lament at some lifestyle lost, his tragedy was losing the love he had been seeking most his life. And, we're not even getting into how Casino, as its title implies, explores the business and relationship of Las Vegas casinos with organized crime. Again, something Goodfelllas does not do.

What does that have to do with his argument? He didn't say Marvel films need to be obscure, near indecipherable pieces of cinema.

I don't care how many words you use to justify your opinion, it's no more valid than our opinions.

You say Marvel films are all the same. I say Marty's mob films are all the same. Deal with it.

plagiarize · Nov 5, 2019

BossAttack said:
To go in more depth, again, I'll point to my earlier post:

You know that tongue-in-cheek post that paints ever Scorsese film as a "Crime Flick" but every MCU film as super different, that's where you're veering. Let's just limit the discussion of Goodfellas and Casino. I think even you will conceded that The Godfather, despite also being a film focused on the mob, is totally different from those films. Goodfellas and Casino are NOT the same, they touch similar subject matter and hit similar beats, but what they are revealing is different. The characters are different. Their motivations are different.

As I got at before, Goodfellas opens with Henry Hill boldly proclaiming that "as far back as I can remember, I wanted to be a a gangster." The film depicts his rise and fall as a gangster, it ends with him in witness protection as a schmuck, a nobody. He doesn't regret anything he did. He loved being a gangster. He hates what he has been forced to become, a nobody. His rise and fall were the result of his violent actions.

Sam Rothstein starts casino with this, "When you love someone, you've gotta trust them. There's no other way. You've got to give them the key to everything that's yours. Otherwise, what's the point? And, for a while... I believed that's the kind of love I had." This is important as it setups the whole film, his motivations, and his fall. Sam wanted to be a respected businessman, he never wanted to be a gangster. He wanted respect and love. His downfall is the eventual result of trusting and loving someone who never actually loved him back. Here's his closing, "But in the end, I wound up right back where I started. I could still pick winners, and I could still make money for all kinds of people back home. And why mess up a good thing? And that's that." It's not lament at some lifestyle lost, his tragedy was losing the love he had been seeking most his life. And, we're not even getting into how Casino, as its title implies, explores the business and relationship of Las Vegas casinos with organized crime. Again, something Goodfelllas does not do.

What does that have to do with his argument? He didn't say Marvel films need to be obscure, near indecipherable pieces of cinema.

I'm not saying they are the same. I'm saying that Ant Man, and Black Panther, aren't MORE similar. One is about a king wondering if he can leave up to his father, finding out that his father wasn't the great noble man he believed him to be, coming to terms with the damage his father caused, and then deciding to lead his country out of the darkness.

Ant Man is about a criminal trying to reform and to be a better dad to his daughter.

They aren't the same either. Both are about super heroes, but they aren't the same.

Lupercal · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I don't care how many words you use to justify your opinion, it's no more valid than our opinions.

You say Marvel films are all the same. I say Marty's mob films are all the same. Deal with it.

Must've never seen a Scorsese film then.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

Lupercal said:
Must've never seen a Scorsese film then.

Must've issues reading. I even specified a genre. But I guess anything's okay to stick to your confirmation bias.

plagiarize said:
I'm not saying they are the same. I'm saying that Ant Man, and Black Panther, aren't MORE similar. One is about a king wondering if he can leave up to his father, finding out that his father wasn't the great noble man he believed him to be, coming to terms with the damage his father caused, and then deciding to lead his country out of the darkness.

Ant Man is about a criminal trying to reform and to be a better dad to his daughter.

They aren't the same either. Both are about super heroes, but they aren't the same.

It's a bit sad that this even needed to be spelled out. Like, woaaah films within the same genre are similar to one another. Shocking!

Papacheeks · Nov 5, 2019

jroc74 said:
Exactly, especially the first paragraph.

But that's not cinema!!!!!

What you posted is...exactly.....why watching all the movies first before Endgame gives Endgame much more of an impact IMO. If not all at least certain ones.

Sorry, but when he also compares Alfred Hitchcock movies to theme parks....I'll just say again, he has one hell of an opinion.

Yea, like when someone tells me that the storyline between cap and tony was just a one film thing that is forgotten, I'm like " did you even watch these movies?"

It's like people do not know the source material which was a giant multi- part arc that actually had the confrontation ending with caps assassination? I think knowing that they were going to be fighting thanos from the first avengers movie at some point they couldn't kill off cap like that. Yet that theme is explored by the russos in winter soldier with Fury's death being faked when he's assassinated.

I didn't put the two together that they in a way took pieces of civil war and sprinkled it across 2 films, that had already setup through the first two avengers films confrontation between Tony and Cap.

And I like that after the first avengers seeing how tony didn't trust fury, he was right by the time we see cap in winter soldier. So in a sense I think cap saw the points tony made at the same time, he also saw that Tony by the end was a true guy who fought for others and was willing to "lay down on the wire" and sacrifice himself.

God now I want to watch endgame again.

GMT Master · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I don't care how many words you use to justify your opinion, it's no more valid than our opinions.

You say Marvel films are all the same. I say Marty's mob films are all the same. Deal with it.

He was right when he first said what he did and he's still right now.

If you think your opinion about this topic has any value, you're wrong. He's Martin Scorsese. We are a bunch of people on an internet forum.

The biggest lie that people live with is believing that their opinion is always valid. It's not.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

GMT Master said:
He was right when he first said what he did and he's still right now.

If you think your opinion about this topic has any value, you're wrong. He's Martin Scorsese. We are a bunch of people on an internet forum.

Wow, that's certainly a take. I guess I should also reevaluate my opinion about Roman Polanski, who am I to disagree with Marty.

GMT Master · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
Wow, that's certainly a take. I guess I should also reevaluate my opinion about Roman Polanski, who am I to disagree with Marty.

Yes, these two things are completely related and that absolutely should have been thrown in there to strengthen your valid opinion argument.

Soapbox Killer · Nov 5, 2019

This has become The Last Jedi of 2019

Admiral Woofington · Nov 5, 2019

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
This has become The Last Jedi of 2019

Martin Scorsese is a Mary Sue and they completely misused Marvel Movies in the film as their adventure brought nothing to the overall plot.

Kalentan · Nov 5, 2019

GMT Master said:
Yes, these two things are completely related and that absolutely should have been thrown in there to strengthen your valid opinion argument.

The point being that you were downplaying their opinion because they're "just" a forum user and he's Martin Scorsese. So by that logic, Martin's opinion on Polanski should trump theirs.

Lupercal · Nov 5, 2019

Kalentan said:
The point being that you were downplaying their opinion because they're "just" a forum user and he's Martin Scorsese. So by that logic, Martin's opinion on Polanski should trump theirs.

Well we are just forum users.
Man has been making movies for more years than most of us have been alive.
I'd consider his opinion to carry more weight and thought behind it than mine or anyone else here.

Lower_Frequency · Nov 5, 2019

Kalentan said:
The point being that you were downplaying their opinion because they're "just" a forum user and he's Martin Scorsese. So by that logic, Martin's opinion on Polanski should trump theirs.

Zero critical thinking skills here. Martin’s opinions on film and film making should be respected and trusted as he is an expert in the field. Martin’s opinions on sexual assault and survivorship not so much. The fact that there is a need to conflate the two in an attempt to strengthen a weak position is telling.

Kalentan · Nov 5, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Zero critical thinking skills here. Martin’s opinions on film and film making should be respected and trusted as he is an expert in the field. Martin’s opinions on sexual assault and survivorship not so much. The fact that there is a need to conflate the two in an attempt to strengthen a weak position is telling.

Considering that sexual predator is a fellow filmmaker who still makes movies, yes, these are things that are related.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

GMT Master said:
Yes, these two things are completely related and that absolutely should have been thrown in there to strengthen your valid opinion argument.

Given that you love to blindly follow what your Celebrity of Choice X says, it's a pretty valid mirror. Think about it, or don't. I don't particularly care. Saying "your opinion doesn't matter because Celebrity X says this" is just toxic.

Lower_Frequency said:
Zero critical thinking skills here. Martin’s opinions on film and film making should be respected and trusted as he is an expert in the field. Martin’s opinions on sexual assault and survivorship not so much. The fact that there is a need to conflate the two in an attempt to strengthen a weak position is telling.

Of course, because thinking about it on the lines if Celebrity X is fallible or not is just too mentally exhausting.

TAJ · Nov 5, 2019

Lower_Frequency said:
Zero critical thinking skills here. Martin’s opinions on film and film making should be respected and trusted as he is an expert in the field. Martin’s opinions on sexual assault and survivorship not so much. The fact that there is a need to conflate the two in an attempt to strengthen a weak position is telling.

Accusing someone of having no critical thinking skills in a post based entirely on a logical fallacy is just cute.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

I genuinely wonder if FilmSnob Era (TM) just can't think of a more prolific director to rally behind, or if they actually, genuinely believe that Scorcese films are high art.

Personally, I'm pretty sure he's just being put on that pedestal because he satisfies the Anti-MCU crowd's need for validation.

Scullibundo · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I genuinely wonder if FilmSnob Era (TM) just can't think of a more prolific director to rally behind, or if they actually, genuinely believe that Sorcese films are high art.

Personally, I'm pretty sure he's just being put on that pedestal because he satisfies the Anti-MCU crowd's need for validation.

This is the worst bait post in the thread. Right down to not being able to spell Scorsese. My hat is off to you.

KingM · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I genuinely wonder if FilmSnob Era (TM) just can't think of a more prolific director to rally behind, or if they actually, genuinely believe that Sorcese films are high art.

Personally, I'm pretty sure he's just being put on that pedestal because he satisfies the Anti-MCU crowd's need for validation.

He's been widely considered one of the greatest living directors and film preservationists for like 5 decades now it's not an Era thing.

Ottaro · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I genuinely wonder if FilmSnob Era (TM) just can't think of a more prolific director to rally behind, or if they actually, genuinely believe that Sorcese films are high art.

Personally, I'm pretty sure he's just being put on that pedestal because he satisfies the Anti-MCU crowd's need for validation.

I love the MCU and still agree with every word in the op-ed.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

Scullibundo said:
This is the worst bait post in the thread. Right down to not being able to spell Scorsese. My hat is off to you.

It rustled your feathers enough that you weren't even able to notice a pretty simple typo. I guess it worked.

But seriously, watch more movies if Marty is your king.

Scullibundo · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
It rustled your feathers enough that you weren't even able to notice a pretty simple typo. I guess it worked.

But seriously, watch more movies if Marty is your king.

You typo’d but also spelt his name wrong in the latter half. And Marty isn’t my king, but is certainly one of the easiest filmmakers to recognise as one of the all-time greats. This isn’t even a contentious statement for most people.

Window · Nov 5, 2019

Scullibundo said:
This is the worst bait post in the thread. Right down to not being able to spell Scorsese. My hat is off to you.

Yeah that’s been the entire line of posting in these threads, to shift the discussion towards the merits of Scorsese’s work.

If film can be considered high art (and some may argue it can’t) then Scorsese’s work with DeNiro is high art. The existence of a Tarr or Reygadas or anyone else doesn’t change that.

Aprikurt · Nov 5, 2019

In many places around this country and around the world, franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen. It’s a perilous time in film exhibition, and there are fewer independent theaters than ever

This bothers me. It's as if franchise films are some new breed. They're not. Ever since the star system in Hollywood, filmmakers have been looking to make money off more of the same.

Alice · Nov 5, 2019

Scullibundo said:
You typo’d but also spelt his name wrong in the latter half. And Marty isn’t my king, but is certainly one of the easiest filmmakers to recognise as one of the all-time greats. This isn’t even a contentious statement for most people.

<shrug> When it comes to art, I think of other people before I ever get to Marty. He makes fairly Mainstream films. He's a Warhol, but not a Picasso.

ParanormalFupa · Nov 5, 2019

Aprikurt said:
This bothers me. It's as if franchise films are some new breed. They're not. Ever since the star system in Hollywood, filmmakers have been looking to make money off more of the same.

I would say he's speaking to the proportion of franchise films vs. non-franchise films rather than the pure existence of franchise films.

Tfritz · Nov 5, 2019

it's literally been over a month, no one remembers or cares what you said about the super hero movie industrial complex

Lundren · Nov 5, 2019

Tfritz said:
it's literally been over a month, no one remembers or cares what you said about the super hero movie industrial complex

The people who agree with what he said and enjoy the added validation he brings them sure remember. Vividly.

Meus Renaissance · Nov 5, 2019

The comments in that NYT article are excellent, thoughtful and well-written. Just a snapshot of the type of audience Scorsese is trying to address.

Window · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
<shrug> When it comes to art, I think of other people before I ever get to Marty. He makes fairly Mainstream films. He's a Warhol, but not a Picasso.

Genuinely curious, what films would you mark down as high art?

Kalentan · Nov 5, 2019

This thread is a nutshell:

This Thread: *Poster makes really detailed post arguing against points in the oped*

Thread Responses: Little to None

This Thread: *Poster makes post about Martin's film work*

Thread Responses: "OH MY GOD LOOK AT THIS FUCKING MCU STAN!!!"

Like it's funny watching people who barely posting in the thread suddenly come in droves to go after that specific post. It's incredibly transparent.

This thread is more about finding moments to shit on each other then to actually to actually have a discussion.

DRULYBXA · Nov 5, 2019

Hmmm...I wonder if he has a movie out soon...

KingM · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
<shrug> When it comes to art, I think of other people before I ever get to Marty. He makes fairly Mainstream films. He's a Warhol, but not a Picasso.

Both of those are considered some of the greatest ,and best known, artists of the 20th century though. Someone coming to mind later than another does not mean they aren't a phenomenal artist.

Hierophant · Nov 5, 2019

KingM said:
He's been widely considered one of the greatest loving directors and film preservationists for like 5 decades now it's not an Era thing.

Alexandros · Nov 5, 2019

Window said:
Hey someone made a post on this very question using actual numbers 2 pages back. Check it out.

Thanks!

lacer said:
a lot less than wound up actually being shown in theaters, thanks in part to the dominance of franchises and remakes, which is the point he's making the op-ed

I know and he's wrong. My argument is that Scorsese simply doesn't want to accept that audiences don't see the theater experience as this hugely important thing it obviously is for him. His kind of films aren't shown in theaters because audiences don't care about seeing them in theaters.

lacer · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
Goalpost's a movin'

lol hard to shift goalposts when you don't even understand the point you're trying to make. he remade a movie once, so that totally invalidates his point? grow up

Deleted member 42055 · Nov 5, 2019

Hierophant said:

^^^^^ he does so much for cinema and some people want him to “ go away” lol and someone actually wrote “ Filmsnob Era” ? Hahahaha MCU fans sounding like angsty 14yo’s or 38yo Comic Book Guys every time one of these threads pops up

Yams · Nov 5, 2019

spam musubi said:
I haven’t gone through the whole thread so I’m not sure if this take is unique (probably not), so just in case:

ok boomer

It’s not unique. it’s also ignorant and stupid since Marty is not a boomer

But you do you

Kalentan · Nov 5, 2019

Yams said:
It’s not unique. it’s also ignorant and stupid since Marty is not a boomer

But you do you

To be fair, Martin is technically only not a boomer by being 4 years earlier then what is considered the start.

Kill3r7 · Nov 5, 2019

Agar25 said:
^^^^^ he does so much for cinema and some people want him to “ go away” lol and someone actually wrote “ Filmsnob Era” ? Hahahaha MCU fans sounding like angsty 14yo’s or 38yo Comic Book Guys every time one of these threads pops up

To be fair, comic book movies had a tough road to gain acceptance from film critics. Often being derided even if they were enjoyable and well made. It is easy for MCU fans to see this as another attack to undermine their favorite genre. Even if Marty is correct in highlighting the shortcomings of the genre/MCU/blockbuster franchises and their impact on movies being made and shown in theaters.

LiK · Nov 5, 2019

Geist 6one7 said:
Please watch the Irishman.

what’s his superpower

Alexandros · Nov 5, 2019

Agar25 said:
^^^^^ he does so much for cinema and some people want him to “ go away” lol and someone actually wrote “ Filmsnob Era” ? Hahahaha MCU fans sounding like angsty 14yo’s or 38yo Comic Book Guys every time one of these threads pops up

The irony is that you don't come off much better.

Gold Arsene · Nov 5, 2019

Agar25 said:
^^^^^ he does so much for cinema and some people want him to “ go away” lol and someone actually wrote “ Filmsnob Era” ? Hahahaha MCU fans sounding like angsty 14yo’s or 38yo Comic Book Guys every time one of these threads pops up

As opposed to the oh so mature MCU haters who need constant validation that these movies are garbage.

Hierophant · Nov 5, 2019

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vu...lacing-classic-fox-movies-into-its-vault.html

Read this article and then explain to me how Scorcese is wrong, Disney is scum.

They literally wouldn't let a horror movie festival play The Fly and they've blocked showings of Alien like how can you even defend this?

Amiablepercy · Nov 5, 2019

Alice said:
I don't care how many words you use to justify your opinion, it's no more valid than our opinions.

You say Marvel films are all the same. I say Marty's mob films are all the same. Deal with it.

His opinion is totally more valid than yours or mine (and I've worked in the industry for 12 years) because he can back it up with a vast and sweeping almost encyclopedic film knowledge that neither you and I can (And I have a master's degree in film studies), decades of making powerful and beautiful masterworks (he has far from just made mob movies by the way and the ones he did especially his latest are more meditative than any Marvel film I can think of), and hands on experience in almost every element of the craft.

It is easy to write him off as a grumpy old man but he has explained and clarified his statement and I am far from a boomer but I think the entitlement and presumptuous ego of some members of the enthusiast demo is kind of ridiculous and I like and have enjoyed a lot of Marvel flicks also.

EDIT:

Many nerds would completely disagree with this for example:

"I don't want to criticize any other designers, but I have to say that many of the people involved in this industry - directors and producers - are trying to make their games more like movies. They are longing to make movies rather than making videogames."

Shigeru Miyamoto

Are you and I arrogant enough to presume that our opinion is as valid as Miyamoto who helped create the games industry as we know it? I mean.... sometimes it is important to respect and show humility when it comes to elder craftsmen even if we set out to do something different. That's just the correct order of things.

Colin Robinson · Nov 5, 2019

Soapbox Killer Returns said:
This has become The Last Jedi of 2019

Don’t you think that Henry Hill was a Mary Sue?

Deleted member 42055 · Nov 5, 2019

Alexandros said:
The irony is that you don't come off much better.

Whatever you say babes, these threads are dumpster fires of insecurity and peak fanboyism. Just calling it like it is. The people losing their minds and attacking one of the greatest filmmakers ever because he doesn’t worship their comic films is beyond childish

Gold Arsene said:
As opposed to the oh so mature MCU haters who need constant validation that these movies are garbage.

Don’t hate the MCU at all personally

Kill3r7 said:
To be fair, comic book movies had a tough road to gain acceptance from film critics. Often being derided even if they were enjoyable and well made. It is easy for MCU fans to see this as another attack to undermine their favorite genre. Even if Marty is correct in highlighting the shortcomings of the genre/MCU/blockbuster franchises and their impact on movies being made and shown in theaters.

An “attack” which will accomplish nothing. These movies will continue to be made, make a ton of $$$, be the most visible, talked about films of the year when they’re released ... so what’s with the need to pushback on anything that threatens their validation? Pure insecurity.

Drewton · Nov 5, 2019

LiK said:
what’s his superpower

Best post in the thread

jack_package_200 · Nov 5, 2019

Hierophant · Nov 5, 2019

jack_package_200 said:

Kill3r7 · Nov 5, 2019

Agar25 said:
An “attack” which will accomplish nothing. These movies will continue to be made, make a ton of $$$... what’s with the need to pushback on anything that threatens their validation? Pure insecurity.

More or less.

Isn’t that how fandom works? We might hide behind being impartial enthusiasts but certain biases inevitably cloud our judgment. There is also a certain amount of tribalism that exists in discussing such topics.

Martin Scorsese writes an Op Ed in the NY Times explaining his Marvel comments

Trifecta Secured. Let's get to work.

Nintendo Die-rect

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account

User requested account closure

User requested account closure